[Inquiry] Datamine IO usage?

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Herotu said:

Eh.,.. what? It's PvE... who cares how other people make their builds?  It's not like those stupid shitty raids that other games focus on.

The second the game starts to be balanced around IOs is the second the IO system no longer becomes optional.

Edited October 13, 2019 by macskull

[Herotu]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

The second the game starts to be balanced around IOs is the second the IO system no longer becomes optional.

Balanced? Well that would make sense for a competitive or performance-oriented game like PvP or Raids. Otherwise it doesn't matter about optimising your build. Don't forget that some sets are massively better than others, so balance is a joke anyway.

 

Where PvP is concerned, guess what? IOs are absolutely required and non-optional already, I think.

Where Raids are concerned, we don't have them.

 

That's why I don't see IO tweaks as a problem. Balance is not really a thing in CoH.

[Gulbasaur]

On 10/11/2019 at 7:00 AM, TheAdjustor said:

You can just see the thread calling for nerfing LotG +7.5 being written

I think it should have been a scaling proc like Reactive Defences' resistance buff. Lower health = more recharge... So you have to, you know, take a gamble and stay at lower health if you want the recharge boost. The buff as it is is too easily abused.

 

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

The second the game starts to be balanced around IOs is the second the IO system no longer becomes optional.

Also ..

 

The second they were to significantly nerf IOs would be the second the game becomes optional. 

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Also ..

 

The second they were to significantly nerf IOs would be the second the game becomes optional. 

Right, instead they should buff the crappy ones. But to do that, I still think we need to look at which are left behind / how many people are using IOs at all.

 

I think we all agree that the IO system is awesome, its just that certain bonuses are much more valuable than others and if the less valued became better it would be great for diversity

Edited October 13, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[TheAdjustor]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Right, instead they should buff the crappy ones. But to do that, I still think we need to look at which are left behind / how many people are using IOs at all.

 

I think we all agree that the IO system is awesome, its just that certain bonuses are much more valuable than others and if the less valued became better it would be great for diversity

Well this is why I like the Idea of having recharge in abilities in the power pools. As I said earlier because recharge has inherent diminishing returns unlike say defense, or resistance it's the logical place to look at.  Speaking of inherent diminishing returns +Damage would be interesting for the meh sets. Between damage enhancement in sets, leadership and other global buffs and the fact it's an additive buff it's something that can be put in without worrying much about power creep.

[Myrmidon]

Luck of the Gambler

Kinetic Combat

Performance Shifter proc

Numina unique

Miracle unique

Panacea unique

Steadfast Protection: +3 Defense unique

Gladiator’s Armor unique

Shield Wall unique

 

My own experience tells me that those will rank at the top of the list.

[nihilii]

On 10/9/2019 at 11:30 PM, macskull said:

I would be okay with using this sort of data for entertainment purposes, or maybe for investigating underperforming IO sets/set bonuses, but I would absolutely not be okay with using this data to change the way the game plays because that takes the invention system from the realm of "optional but really nice" to "required."

In the spirit of using this data for entertainment purposes, I'd love if IO usage could be tied to forum account so we could see how many of the proponents of SO balance only are truly on SOs. 😛

[Parabola]

Totally agree that there are a lot of wasted sets. Most of the low level sets are hamstrung by a combination of poor enhancement values and pointless bonuses. Hands up who here has slotted a set of bonesnaps?

 

It's partly the same argument as that around TO's, DO's and SO's; the lower tiers seem pointless in today's game. We are heavily slot limited at low levels so there seems no need to also be forced to use underpowered enhancements in the slots we have. This creates a rush to get to at least lv22 and the early enhancement system is largely ignored.

 

I would like to see a revamp of most of the sets to give each at least one useful thing they do better than any other set. An example off the top of my head would be to change one of the taoe sets to have significant range enhancement to make it the go to set for cones.

 

Individual bonuses could also be looked at to ensure thier usefulness. +damage is one that seems to lag behind and is generally considered not worth building for. The primacy of +rech and +def is largely based around the ability to stack really meaningful amounts of it. If we could stack meaningful amounts of other bonuses it could really open up character building.

 

The low level sets definitely need some love. They need to offer something, ideally something worthwhile to the slot poor levelling character. One way might be to redo their bonuses completely with things like meaningful +acc and +recov. Things that low lv builds are desperate for. They would still tend to be dropped later on due to the low overall enhancement values and lack of the more end game tuned bonuses but they would at least have a niche.

[macskull]

10 hours ago, nihilii said:

In the spirit of using this data for entertainment purposes, I'd love if IO usage could be tied to forum account so we could see how many of the proponents of SO balance only are truly on SOs. 😛

My main since the game came back has been a Fire/Cold Corruptor which was on SOs for the first 4 or 5 months. I'm a proponent of SO balance because that is what the live devs repeatedly said the game was balanced against and because rebalancing the game around IOs would turn this game into a grind for loot (unless IOs were made free, which you know would never happen).

[Megajoule]

I'm only now transitioning off/respeccing out of SOs for most of my characters (nearly all of which are 50), having leveled them that way - expensive though it can get, replacing them every 5 levels - because I'm an oldbie and I understand SOs.  IOs, especially set IOs, I'm only now starting to figure out, years after Issue 9.  (Per last page, back on live I often simply couldn't afford the really good ones, so I never learned.)

Edited October 14, 2019 by Megajoule

[nihilii]

50 minutes ago, macskull said:

My main since the game came back has been a Fire/Cold Corruptor which was on SOs for the first 4 or 5 months. I'm a proponent of SO balance because that is what the live devs repeatedly said the game was balanced against and because rebalancing the game around IOs would turn this game into a grind for loot (unless IOs were made free, which you know would never happen).

Well hey, if it turns out you are part of the majority in SO balance proponents, I would be the one with egg on my face and that would be pretty funny too. BRING ON THE DATAMINING!!

[TheAdjustor]

17 hours ago, parabola said:

I would like to see a revamp of most of the sets to give each at least one useful thing they do better than any other set. An example off the top of my head would be to change one of the taoe sets to have significant range enhancement to make it the go to set for cones.

 

 

Positron's Blast ? It always seemed to have a pretty good set of enhancement values.  The problem isn't the enhancement level it's the crappy cones. There's just not much that will help a 30 -40 ft cone.   Drain psyche was nice but I always thought the real gem of /mental manipulation was psychic scream.  60 foot cone good damage it really avoided the perpetual gimping of range.  /mental still was designed like a platypus but at least you can make something with the pieces.

[biostem]

On 10/13/2019 at 2:50 PM, macskull said:

The second the game starts to be balanced around IOs is the second the IO system no longer becomes optional.

Bit of a tangent here, but why not just make all IOs directly purchaseable via the invention desks, like basic ones are?

[Galaxy Brain]

9 hours ago, biostem said:

Bit of a tangent here, but why not just make all IOs directly purchaseable via the invention desks, like basic ones are?

That is a bit drastic of a change, even if the prices were like x2 the cost of the bids on AH.

 

Lets keep this on the topic of just figuring out IO data. Are there any specific data points that haven't been brought up?

[Galaxy Brain]

Bumping this to see if we could even just get a number on the amount of players who have slotted *any* IO's vs just SO's?

[boggo2300]

43 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Bumping this to see if we could even just get a number on the amount of players who have slotted *any* IO's vs just SO's?

I don't slot any IO's until I start slotting set's at 50, don't see the point, it's not like you need them in city of facerolls, usually only once I've run out of fun stuff to do I start getting sets and slotting them, I may start slotting regular IO's when I can slot them as 50's but until late 40's you won't find me with ANY IO's just no need

[Call Me Awesome]

Every build I play will ALWAYS have the following:

Miracle +recovery

Numina +Regen/Recovery

Performance Shifter +end

Karma +6% Accuracy (It's To Hit damnit!)

 

Anything building Defense will always have these:

Steadfast +3% defense

Gladiator's Armor +3% defense

 

After that the sets and bonuses depend on the character but my characters always have a full set build by level 30 and usually have some and possibly a frankenslot build by the time they're 20.  Many will grab some LotG 7.5% recharge where they can fit as well.

[SwitchFade]

Information is extremely powerful. Data, interpreted distinctly, can be a boon or a terrible bane.

 

No matter how one would try and present the data, it would undoubtedly be used to create statistical inference to suit nefarious designs.

 

For this reason alone, do not publish this data.

 

I apologize, but I must jranger.

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

No matter how one would try and present the data, it would undoubtedly be used to create statistical inference to suit nefarious designs.

So basically, it absolutely should be published, but only redside players should be allowed able to see it.

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

No matter how one would try and present the data, it would undoubtedly be used to create statistical inference to suit nefarious designs.

Devs have the data no matter what. A few months back, Leandro was datamining whether forum posters who reacted to changes on the Test server had actually logged to the game accounts tied to those forum accounts.

 

In comparison, mere players having access to data doesn't seem that big of a deal. Designs can be as nefarious as possible but from a player they'll be just that, designs. Without the power to actually implement change, the potential for "malevolence" amounts to little more than nothing.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

ok so maybe not the exact place for this but im willing to bet

 

the enhancements least used are "drum roll please"

 

anything that reduces interrupt time

 

so let change those to Reduces cast time instead?

 

bye

 

[Galaxy Brain]

5 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

I don't slot any IO's until I start slotting set's at 50, don't see the point, it's not like you need them in city of facerolls, usually only once I've run out of fun stuff to do I start getting sets and slotting them, I may start slotting regular IO's when I can slot them as 50's but until late 40's you won't find me with ANY IO's just no need

Not even basic ones?

 

Anywho, youd count towards the peeps who use the IO system. The goal here is to shed light on how many people actually use it, given that the forums/ etc are a tiny fraction of the community who actually play. We of course all have the most uber builds and starts on the forums, and thus we must rep all the players 😉

[boggo2300]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Not even basic ones?

 

Anywho, youd count towards the peeps who use the IO system. The goal here is to shed light on how many people actually use it, given that the forums/ etc are a tiny fraction of the community who actually play. We of course all have the most uber builds and starts on the forums, and thus we must rep all the players 😉

I may about 48 if some fall into my lap (basic ones) but generally I only slot IO's after I'm really done with the character (about the same time I start getting them incarnates) by that stage I consider the character done, and the set's and incarnate stuff is just something to keep the character played a little.

 

I don't EVER build for Uber, I always build for concept, Grey Wanderer my WS is a terrible awful WS build, but he is probably the single most fun character I've ever played (though I could be biased, I did meet my wife playing him 😄 )

[SeraphimKensai]

Honestly I'm a big fan of statistics, so I'm all for monthly updates to the datamined usage on AT's and IO usage, heck even speed of TF completion (ie. Leader Boards?)

 

I do like to roll a lot of underused characters and come up with creative niche uses for them. IO data would help us understand how players develop their toons. The TF time completion is just for my desire for self improvement in a metric driven world where game time is an ever shrinking resource given outside influences such as work, raising a family, social activities outside of the game (ie. It's difficult to sit and play for 8 hours without something coming up), plus I like to race myself.