I am sure this is unpopular, but I miss the city life

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Because they aren't going to mainly balance downward. That ship has LONG sailed. If you wanna drag everything down to the level of force fields, ice control, energy melee...  Uh, no Peg.

 

No one said anything about dragging everything down.  The point was people ask for MORE more often than they ask to TAKE AWAY.  I guess we've completely gotten lost in this discussion...and by "we" I mean you guys lol

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

Balancing is not asking for more, it is asking for parity. It is best to avoid forced false dichotomies when making arguments. It can make people ignore any substance your argument has.

Balancing is a neutral term.  It can mean both nerfing or boosting.  Parity is also a neutral term.

 

The context is the requests usually made are of the latter, not the former (clarification: asking for boosts).

 

You may not think asking to boost things up is considered asking for more but to someone with a sense of basic logic, it certainly isn't the opposite.  If you want to argue false dichotomies, perhaps you missed the train on the initial post I replied to targeted at forum busybodies (who ironically are now quibbling over the definition of "gimmes" lol) which literally outlined the two sides: MY options for YOUR preferences vs YOUR options for MY preferences.

 

Lastly, I severely hope you've reflected on the substance of your argument before criticizing the substance of mine.

[Leogunner]

55 minutes ago, arkieboy72472 said:

However, I don't think it is fair or right to categorize powerset and power balancing as a gimme. If a set is garbage in comparison to others, maybe it needs looked at (like Trick Arrow). If a power is garbage or under-powered to the point it doesn't do as intended, maybe that needs looked at. 

Hopefully this is the last time I have to explain this:

 

I made the term "gimme" with specific context in mind.  Therefore it is MY terminology and context.  You can argue that I used the term incorrectly but you cannot dismiss the context I used it in...especially a made-up slang term.  It means what I want it to mean in the context I use it...that's how slang works.  The point is, comparing how often people ask to nerf/remove things isn't as prolific as asking to boost things.  That I have to literally lay down exactly what I mean in baby-school terms should at least make you guys less apprehensive and possibly a bit ashamed when the context is literally black and white.

[Leogunner]

34 minutes ago, Rylas said:

From reading the thread, I would avoid your definition (and it is very much an opinion of a definition) of the word "gimme." It carries the tone of entitlement. It makes it sound as if people are asking for the lazy hand outs instead of requesting things in the spirit of improving the game or enriching it. To take a such a broad range of possible intentions and to generalize them under one roof for the sake of propping up a strange devil's advocate doesn't seem to serve much towards having discussions in good faith.

Again, considering the context of the quote it was replying to, the same condescension and entitlement was reflected.  Believe me, I know what I was doing and I meant what I said and I have no issue explaining it.

 

 And I'll leave it at that.  I could say more but I've got like 3 replies in a row.

[XaoGarrent]

5 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

I will keep it simple. As much as I love all of the quality of life changes, I hate the result of them. Here are some ideas I was batting around in my head that would be a pretty big and unpopular reversal for the game.

 

1. Get rid of the ability to purchase the portable field craft table. You have to earn it.

2. Nix the slash command for the auction house. You have to go there.

3. Find a way to make hazard and empty zones a little more popular in the future (think the hollows, perez park, fault line, boomtown, crey's folley, echo: whatever and the hive)

 

In other words, this stuff is nice and all and I appreciate it, but I miss how some things used to be.

And two I have considered but would probably die for

 

4. The only way to get the ouroborus power is to earn it but make the way to go about doing it obvious.

5. Respecs have to happen at respec person/people

 

Along these lines, I like having 2XP options, but it and DFB have killed the sewers and kings row.

It is hard for the great quality of life things to coexist with the old way of doing things. I guess I am just too old school.

 

 

Making everyone run around to do chores is really horrid. Especially forcing everyone who's trying to IO out their character to run back and forth between the university and AH in steel. And it's even worse redside, so that would be ANOTHER bad mark on redside's track record. So a big fat no on ideas 1 2 and 4.

 

Idea 5 is actually the least questionable thing you've posted here, but at the same time the most pointless. How often do you actually respec. And how often do you fraternize with people during a respec? I mean, seriously?

 

As much as I hate the low level energy, downtime and constantly missing, I have to admit... I really miss running around Kings Row, the Hollows and Steel Canyon with a big team and just running through arcs and door missions. Well, I don't miss the ridiculous size of the hollows pre-travel power, but that's really not a problem with all the early travel options we now have.

 

I actually have a partial fix for this problem, that would also improve the content progression and encourage alting, but they'd never do it: Remaster the old low level mission arcs, and restructure them so their length and XP fills out an entire level range with the XP booster active. Have each arc end in an over the top climatic mission that you queue for as a trial. Fast XP and interesting sights.

[Zepp]

If you completely ignore power dynamics, asking for equality could be considered asking for "more", but if you contextualize the request, it will not result in power creep because the sets will still not be as powerful as high performers. Just like asking for the repeal or mitigation of prior nerfs is not designed to push the overall power level up. Using a term that is, by its nature, dismissive is not a good way to start the conversation.

Also, you made reference to the Hasten thread... most of the suggestions within that thread from the OP either nerfed Hasten or led to an equal level of performance. Thus your premises are not sound either.

In terms of language or "slang", words are social constructs. That means they only have meaning if there is an agreed meaning. In other words using words in a manner that is outside the scope of everyone's definition (or claiming that is what you are doing) is not using language. If you have a specific meaning that is being misread, elaborate.

[Gravitus]

1 hour ago, Megajoule said:

As for the Auction House, I love not having to go there in person to sell my stuff... but really the biggest part of that is not having to stand next to That One Guy who leaves his Spines or Fire aura on the entire time.  And given that those two are, like, the most popular combo now...

 

I mean, what you're basically asking for here is for characters to have to go to the bathroom - visit a specific place to conduct an unpleasant but necessary task now and then, studiously ignore anyone else present, and leave as soon as they're done.  That's not gameplay or community; that's a chore.

That’s easily fixable , just do what they do in the praetorian AH. It’s a no power zone .

[Gravitus]

59 minutes ago, Rylas said:

 

 

As for the actual suggestion, yeah, that's an unpopular one. Just because there aren't busy bodies all over the streets doesn't mean there aren't people out and about playing the game. Currently, it's a suggestion based on how one *feels* about something without much objective reasoning.

 

 

Which is the point. Some people care about the feeling of immersion. While I’m not quick to jump on board on some of the methods suggested, CoX feels a lot less immersive than it once did and there are people Whom actually Do care about that aspect of a game .

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, Zepp said:

If you completely ignore power dynamics, asking for equality could be considered asking for "more", but if you contextualize the request, it will not result in power creep because the sets will still not be as powerful as high performers. Just like asking for the repeal or mitigation of prior nerfs is not designed to push the overall power level up. Using a term that is, by its nature, dismissive is not a good way to start the conversation.

Now you're just performing linguistic gymnastics to try and justify your misrepresentation of my posts.  Power creep is power creep primarily because it's a creep i.e. little changes here and there justify more changes here and there for a cumulative effect.  I haven't contextualized the validity or necessity of any of the changes, merely quantified them.  You interpreting things as dismissive is your interpretation and predicated on you misrepresenting the context of someone else's words.

 

11 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Also, you made reference to the Hasten thread... most of the suggestions within that thread from the OP either nerfed Hasten or led to an equal level of performance. Thus your premises are not sound either.

And it was based on a statistic that the majority of players use Hasten.  The reason it is a gimme is because using Hasten is a choice, not a right.  I have plenty of characters that don't use Hasten and if you want to have Hasten then you should have to choose which power slot to fit it in, not give it out to everyone carte blanche.

 

Even if you're correct in your rationality there, what about the posts asking for more slots post lvl 50?  Is that not a gimme?  Is that premise not sound?

 

14 minutes ago, Zepp said:

In terms of language or "slang", words are social constructs. That means they only have meaning if there is an agreed meaning. In other words using words in a manner that is outside the scope of everyone's definition (or claiming that is what you are doing) is not using language. If you have a specific meaning that is being misread, elaborate.

They are social constructs.  And I CONSTRUCTED it's context SOCIALLY via communication and quotations to direct said context.

 

And no.  Slang doesn't have to be agreed upon because it is often times used fluidly.  It's best when you give slang context or explain it so that it can be agreed upon what it means but, again, that meaning will change depending on who is using it, in whatever context or environment.  If you use a slang term and someone else doesn't know what it means, that is a situation where the term ISN'T agreed on its meaning.

 

And I do believe I did elaborate.  I even made a friggen diagram.  

[Lost Ninja]

8 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

1. Get rid of the ability to purchase the portable field craft table. You have to earn it.

Only if it's earn it once per account. Or spend to Inf to skip that. This one makes no sense in your overall demand because even though my main Crafter bought one of these I nearly always do all my crafting in my base (just as I did on Live when I never managed to acquire one).

8 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

2. Nix the slash command for the auction house. You have to go there.

Only if you can buy/earn an alternative. I actually do go to physical AHs because on alts that I haven't gotten round to inviting into my SG it's an easy place to find a merit vendor. And in Atlas at least I often find people in the physical building.

8 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

Find a way to make hazard and empty zones a little more popular in the future (think the hollows, perez park, fault line, boomtown, crey's folley, echo: whatever and the hive)

TBH Without rebuilding (ala Faultline) and then forcing people to level through content (eg no AE/TF/etc) this won't happen. Even on Live Hazard zones (at least in the EU where I played) weren't exactly well populated.

8 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

4. The only way to get the ouroborus power is to earn it but make the way to go about doing it obvious.

But this wouldn't have the end result you appear to be looking for, there is already plenty of people who use Ourobous both as an easy travel power and to use the place for it's intended function. All this change would actually do is prevent people earning it easily. It would directly penalise people playing the game normally. Because to make it work you'd have to remove the Echo Portals, and prevent people using portals placed by other people (eg at the end of a Mission to get to the next zone... which especially blue side is quite common).

8 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

5. Respecs have to happen at respec person/people

Considering there are currently no respec people blue side Jack Wolfe is MIA (not look in CoV/Praetoria). And if you're doing a respec you have zero interaction with those around you because the respec screen covers your whole view. How would this make the city any more alive?

 

"Force people to play the way I want because my way is the best way!"

 

If you enjoy playing it that way go for it, don't advocate for others to be forced to play that way too.

 

[Lines]

I’m in favour of the OP’s suggestions here, but that’s because I’m coming from the school of protestant work ethic and I like the sensation of unlocking stuff.

 

For me, it’s an immersion thing. An RPG should at its core use the character as the liaison between the player and the game world, with the player’s interactions done through the character. Little things like the /ah command do break that contract, where the chat box takes the role of the character. But that’s a niggling thing; I use the /ah command all the bloody time so I can hardly fight this corner.

 

 

As for hazard zones, I absolutely agree they need to be reevaluated. I think we’re beyond the days that levelling up is either a grind or a reward, so I don’t think they should be viewed in that scope. A new approach would be to look at what makes the MSR and Hami Raid popular, in the way that they reward players.

 

Could hazard zones become co-op, each have a unique unlevelled raid, rewarding a type of currency (let’s call them City Merits or something) that matches Vanguard Merits in income-per-raid and exchange value? The events needn’t be more complex than the MSR, with similarly ludicrous amounts of murd— arrests. This would be something that is rewarding for everyone up and down the level ranges, attract people to the zones and give them back a sense of danger.

 

edit: gimme

Edited October 18, 2019 by Lines

[MisterBernie]

Oof... the balance between immersion and convenience/QoL is a difficult one. Even more difficult in an MMO. 

In contrast to a game like Skyrim, where your personal choice to install a No Fast Travel mod effects no one but you, it's a bit much to ask to directly inconvenience other players for your benefit, or because you can't resist the temptation to go for the convenient route (this is directed at me, someone who likes to be immersed but also likes to instaport into a portal base).

 

Immersion is also very subjective... apart from the inconvenience, for me it's also not exactly immersive to go "inventory full, gotta go sell real quick" in the middle of being hot on the trail of Countess Crey instead of silently hitting /ah for half a minute. For me, the office maps are way more immersion breaking than Wentworth's being empty.

 

The problem with empty Hazard zones already existed on Live as well afai remember, especially those that had no dedicated story arc(s).

[Bionic_Flea]

Ignoring the side argument of gimme vs. nerf vs. balance . . . I like all the QOL changes made.  I don't want them taken away.

[DSorrow]

For me the issue is simply practical, back in the day I had all the time in the world for playing video games so even without the QoL changes progression wasn't an issue. Nowadays adulting keeps me busy most of the day so I welcome any and all changes that remove or reduce what I call pad-time, such as running from place A to place B to be able to do the thing I actually wanted to do. While I can't speak for anyone else, I don't think it has any added value to require getting badges for the field crafter, running between WW and the nearest crafting table, or having to go to a specific location for a respec so I'd rather spend those couple of minutes to kill skuls.

[Marine X]

deep breath, hold it, breathe out slowly, foooooh....ok.

 

1) As much as I use the /ah almost every day, I was thinking myself it was detracting from the experience a bit. Having to actually go to Wentworth's to Deal with Salvage and recipes was a part of the Reality the game is set in, and I like trying to play the game on it's terms, and immerse myself in it. Some " make it easier " things are just very tempting.

 

2) Gimmees and all that. It's the purpose of these forums to allow us to discuss City of Heroes and Homecoming. If you want a change, or want a change undone, This IS where you can discuss it. We've been asking for some things for Years, ( fingers for example ) including during the Original run of the game, that never got taken care of when there was a full paid staff working on the game. I don't think you're going to be getting those changes now, even with a Team of Amazing Volunteers we have. But, It doesn't hurt to ask.

 

3) There's a lot of Game here no one ever plays, there are a lot of badges most people never get, there are Accolades tons of people never get, and places few people go, but that's their choice. Anyone can play this however they want. If you don't want to use new features, good for you , I may even join you, but I don't think we need to undo them, too many people on the other side of the opinion. Perhaps just hearing your reasoning may cause some people to also join you. Good Luck

 

[MunkiLord]

Be careful what you wish for. Forcing or pushing people to interact more may not have the intended result.

[Megajoule]

People using the auction house or the respec trainers aren't even interacting, they're just sharing the same virtual space while engaged in their own personal activities.  If you want to see people, go to where people naturally congregate to be social.

 

Everyone has their own line.  I'd be upset if they got rid of the train and all the other zones and just put every mission door somewhere in Atlas, or went the LFG/ /enterbase route and had us teleport directly everywhere.  But I'm okay with where HC currently draws their line.

[biostem]

On 10/17/2019 at 5:39 PM, arkieboy72472 said:

I will keep it simple. As much as I love all of the quality of life changes, I hate the result of them. Here are some ideas I was batting around in my head that would be a pretty big and unpopular reversal for the game.

City of Heroes takes place in a world where teleportation and inter-dimensional travel are commonplace;  To imagine that ordering an item from a specialized auction house for heroes couldn't be sent to you instantly, from anywhere, is actually more of a break from the game's reality, than forcing them to go to a few select buildings.  I also find it odd that one couldn't, with enough resources or reputation, simply buy a portable crafting table outright.  I do agree that it'd be nice to bring more life to some of the lesser used/visited zones.  See my first comment regarding Oroborous and time travel in general, and see my comment about the AH/crafting for respecs...

[BrandX]

On 10/17/2019 at 3:39 PM, arkieboy72472 said:

I will keep it simple. As much as I love all of the quality of life changes, I hate the result of them. Here are some ideas I was batting around in my head that would be a pretty big and unpopular reversal for the game.

 

1. Get rid of the ability to purchase the portable field craft table. You have to earn it.

2. Nix the slash command for the auction house. You have to go there.

3. Find a way to make hazard and empty zones a little more popular in the future (think the hollows, perez park, fault line, boomtown, crey's folley, echo: whatever and the hive)

 

In other words, this stuff is nice and all and I appreciate it, but I miss how some things used to be.

And two I have considered but would probably die for

 

4. The only way to get the ouroborus power is to earn it but make the way to go about doing it obvious.

5. Respecs have to happen at respec person/people

 

Along these lines, I like having 2XP options, but it and DFB have killed the sewers and kings row.

It is hard for the great quality of life things to coexist with the old way of doing things. I guess I am just too old school.

 

 

 

Kings Row was pretty dead before any of this, back on live.  Hollows and Sewers had it pretty empty.  People went there for an empty WW.

 

I never use the slash command for the AH myself.  😛  I always just go there.

 

I do the Hollows when I feel like it, but generally DFB.

 

I don't even remember how to earn the Ouro portal.  Not even sure I ever earned it through a quest back on live O.O

[Infinitum]

22 hours ago, Leogunner said:

 

If you can count, then you'll know you're wrong.

 

And this has been a very mild couple weeks.  There were people asking for inherent Hasten, for Swiftness to have +rech, for more enhancement slots post 50, so on and so on.

Ah no, the hasten thread was a nerf thread that couldn't make its mind up - changed titles 4 times starting with delete hasten. The swiftness thread devolved into the hasten thread.  I know, I was there.

 

The tank changes frequently brought up nerfing Brutes to the stone age.

 

The TW thread wants to bring it down.

 

The IO thread wanted to nerf IOs and eliminate some sets completely.

 

There are more once you actually enter the topic and see what is being said.

 

You aren't all wrong but close enough.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Infinitum

[Cooltastic]

On 10/17/2019 at 5:39 PM, arkieboy72472 said:

I will keep it simple. As much as I love all of the quality of life changes, I hate the result of them. Here are some ideas I was batting around in my head that would be a pretty big and unpopular reversal for the game.

 

1. Get rid of the ability to purchase the portable field craft table. You have to earn it.

2. Nix the slash command for the auction house. You have to go there.

3. Find a way to make hazard and empty zones a little more popular in the future (think the hollows, perez park, fault line, boomtown, crey's folley, echo: whatever and the hive)

 

In other words, this stuff is nice and all and I appreciate it, but I miss how some things used to be.

And two I have considered but would probably die for

 

4. The only way to get the ouroborus power is to earn it but make the way to go about doing it obvious.

5. Respecs have to happen at respec person/people

 

Along these lines, I like having 2XP options, but it and DFB have killed the sewers and kings row.

It is hard for the great quality of life things to coexist with the old way of doing things. I guess I am just too old school.

 

 

You must not be old school enough if you didn't even mention AE in this post. AE is the single biggest issue when it comes to taking people away from the world content. AE is nothing more than and exploit to pass by all content and just farm resources that screw up the games economy.

 

If I could only request 1 thing ever to be done to this game, it would be the removal of AE completely. But I would settle for them removing access to it every other day or so just to pump players back into the world.

 

Or.... make world content MORE REWARDING than any farming you could do in AE.

 

 

But as to all the things you posted in the OP.   /jranger

Edited October 18, 2019 by Cooltastic

[Lines]

29 minutes ago, Cooltastic said:

You must not be old school enough if you didn't even mention AE in this post. AE is the single biggest issue when it comes to taking people away from the world content. AE is nothing more than and exploit to pass by all content and just farm resources that screw up the games economy.

 

If I could only request 1 thing ever to be done to this game, it would be the removal of AE completely. But I would settle for them removing access to it every other day or so just to pump players back into the world.

 

Or.... make world content MORE REWARDING than any farming you could do in AE.

 

 

But as to all the things you posted in the OP.   /jranger

 

The world wasn't exactly well distributed before AE came along. There were still dense concentrations of players in certain areas. Often non-AE farms. It's not a whole lot different now.

 

A bigger effect was the sidekick system overhaul, which allowed everyone to zoom up and down the level range instead of playing sidekick tetris and getting carried. It made those concentrations accessible to everybody.

 

The effect that AE had on the economy on live was very destructive [edit: I'm kinda rethinking this statement. Inflation is a terrible problem across any MMO economy that hasn't thought about managing it]. Many IOs became the sole territory of powergamers. HC have addressed this in more way than one, we're seeing a more stable economy for now and I'm sure more methods would be introduced if it does start getting out of hand. If it does remain stable, then farmers only give the entire community a surplus - which is great.

 

I agree that the rewards of the world content are worth thinking about, but I think this needn't be limited to XP or Inf.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Lines

[Zepp]

I may be reading into the OP, but I think what they miss is the community. In early CoH these hubs formed third spaces. This helped build the community, and as the community thrived the need for these third spaces declined. This lead to improvements that allowed for easier access.

The problem is that the game is being reborn anew, and as people try to rosters of L50 toons, there has been less social interaction. However, give it time. This game can develop a community without forced third spaces.

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, Zepp said:

I may be reading into the OP, but I think what they miss is the community. In early CoH these hubs formed third spaces. This helped build the community, and as the community thrived the need for these third spaces declined. This lead to improvements that allowed for easier access.

I think a lot of this is also a matter of perception:  Are a bunch of people standing around the AH or crafting tables in a university *really* a community?  Do you look at people crowding around Ms. Liberty and think "Yeah!  This is what I want to see more of?"

[Zepp]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I think a lot of this is also a matter of perception:  Are a bunch of people standing around the AH or crafting tables in a university *really* a community?  Do you look at people crowding around Ms. Liberty and think "Yeah!  This is what I want to see more of?"

Miss Liberty isn't a third space, it is a second space. First space is the home (SG Base), Second space is work (missions and places related to leveling). Third spaces are social gathering hubs outside home and work.