Turn EATs into "generic" shape shifters

[DougGraves]

I am sure this is a lot of work.  But an issue with EATs is how they look.  They are specific aliens.  They only fit the theme of being those aliens.  But they shapeshift.

 

It would be awesome if you could make one and choose what your dwarf and squid forms looked like.  Transform into a bear and eagle, or robots, or dinosaurs, or robot dinosaurs.

 

The number of choices do not have to be endless and they do not have to be customizable (you get bear, not a bear costume creator).  But just having the ability to have different themes for your EATs would attract a lot more interest in playing them.

[Obsidius]

I'd rather they add a new EAT for that instead of messing with my Warshade, for example.

 

In game design in general, it's a lot harder to change something that's been established than creating something new.

 

Just make a new Shapeshifting AT. I know the Primalist AT (https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Primalist) was supposed to fill this niche, and although the half-finished version on I24 has been fleshed out on other SCORE servers, it isn't available on Homecoming (yet).

Edited November 1, 2019 by Obsidius
added reference

[Haijinx]

There is lore established and connected to the Khelds now.  Seems inextricable at this point.  

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, DougGraves said:

  But an issue with EATs is how they look.  They are specific aliens.  They only fit the theme of being those aliens.

That's the whole point.

[DougGraves]

6 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

That's the whole point.

 

Yes, but points can change.

[Lines]

It’s worth noting that the Kheldian Forms are energy ‘memories’ of prior alien hosts thats the Kheldians have used. The forms themselves aren’t Kheldian. Novas are Hulmanim and Dwarves are Kurukt.

 

That gives the potential for a lot of scope, if you expand the repertoire of prior Kheldian hosts.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Lines

[Megajoule]

If you want to play a shapeshifter, you have multiple costume slots, all unlocked for free now.  By visiting a cosmetic surgeon (found in the Vanguard Base and Pocket D, among other places) you can have them vary widely in gender, size, etc.  Go nuts.

[boggo2300]

Keep your paws of my Khelds!!!!!

[Lost Ninja]

It would almost certainly be as much work to change existing HEATs into a true shape shifter as it would be to to create a new EAT which was a shape shifter. Makes far more sense if that level of work is going to be required to make a new AT which would upset less people than to try to modify an existing one.

[biostem]

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, DougGraves said:

I am sure this is a lot of work.  But an issue with EATs is how they look.  They are specific aliens.  They only fit the theme of being those aliens. 

Where the uniqueness comes into play is the symbiotic nature they have with their host;  You can RP that however you like and/or stick to the human form, if the nova and dwarf forms are that much of a turn off for you.

 

I'm not against adding a new shapeshifting AT, as Obsidius pointed out - I just don't think trying to modify Kheldians into them is the correct approach to make.

[boggo2300]

The Dev's on live had an idea for a shape shifting AT called the Primal or Primordial or something, it never made it even to beta because they couldn't figure out how to make it fun,  completely unlike Khelds (specifically WS much better than tinkerbell, er PB)

[Replacement]

What the hell is going on in this thread?

 

@boggo2300 @Obsidius He never said this would affect your khelds.

 

What he did say was to open up the AT to other fictions, which would mostly affect new characters.

 

Seriously. This suggestion is absolutely in the spirit of what Back Alley Brawler opened up so many years ago with Power Customization. Why is this the one time everyone's like "actually, nope. I don't think you should get to write your own story"?

 

Implementation-wise, I could imagine shapeshifter entries on the power customization page, where choosing non-default launches a message prompt telling them that option will disallow the starting Kheldian contact.

 

With that contact severed, everything else would fall just fine.

 

[golstat2003]

On 11/1/2019 at 7:44 PM, DougGraves said:

 

Yes, but points can change.

No thanks. Leave my khelds alone. They should build A NEW EPIC AT for that instead.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

What the hell is going on in this thread?

 

@boggo2300 @Obsidius He never said this would affect your khelds.

 

What he did say was to open up the AT to other fictions, which would mostly affect new characters.

 

Seriously. This suggestion is absolutely in the spirit of what Back Alley Brawler opened up so many years ago with Power Customization. Why is this the one time everyone's like "actually, nope. I don't think you should get to write your own story"?

 

Implementation-wise, I could imagine shapeshifter entries on the power customization page, where choosing non-default launches a message prompt telling them that option will disallow the starting Kheldian contact.

 

With that contact severed, everything else would fall just fine.

So, beyond changing the color and perhaps having a few alternate animations for the regular attacks, all that'd be different is that there might be another few options for the Nova and Dwarf forms?  Is that all that's being proposed?

[DougGraves]

39 minutes ago, biostem said:

So, beyond changing the color and perhaps having a few alternate animations for the regular attacks, all that'd be different is that there might be another few options for the Nova and Dwarf forms?  Is that all that's being proposed?

 

Yep.  

[Haijinx]

Would you even need a new AT? 

 

What if you added new prestige powers that changed your form  but allowed you to use powers?

 

Similar to the wolf or panther forms

 

The animations would be a pain of course, but you are going to have that anyway with this suggestion.  

 

 

[Replacement]

25 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Would you even need a new AT?

Nope. Way easier than that silly Primal.

 

@golstat2003 just in case you didn't see DougGraves' last post.

[Steampunkette]

Harder than the Primalist. By far.

 

See, the Primalist is easier 'cause it uses the player models with the Animal Heads and stuff that were added to the game late in life for the shape-change models, rather than wholly unique models like the Nova and Dwarf forms.

 

They used normal model animations for their powers and had normal model emanation points.

 

The Devs would need to actively screw with brand new model-swaps to add more forms to Kheldians and Nicti. They'd also be Energy-Blasting Birds or Bears or Whatever. Which is dumb.

 

Fortunately, someone has already done the work on making the Primalist available to the CoH Community. The only thing that -hasn't- been done is the inherent 'cause it would require a recompiling of the game data to implement so the Primalist Creator is waiting for the next recompiling of the OuroDev team's work.

 

They've also stated they'll be handing their Primalist Class work over to the Homecoming Team as long as the HC Team -wants- Primalists added to the game...

 

My money is on "Yes".

 

 

TLDR:  Leave PBs and WSs alone, use the Primalist, instead, once it's available for implementation.

[Zepp]

It may work for some models (Will'oWisps & Shivans for example), but it would be more difficult to justify animal forms (actually, Psychic Ravens would be cool).

 

I do not think the contact with Kheldian contacts should be severed, that is just something you would have to deal with.

[Obsidius]

12 hours ago, Replacement said:

What the hell is going on in this thread?

We were discussing a topic without acting like an armed conflict had broken out.

[Indystruck]

This is being presented as a simple swap. Wasn't the whole reason Khelds never got much in the way of power customization because they were spaghetti nonsense ontop of spaghetti nonsense on live that wasn't viewed as worth the hassle? Like, we got some customization for them now, obviously, but...

 

A simple swap in this instance is being viewed as just a model swap, but there'd still have to be new models, we don't have... any of those models listed except maybe eagles (upscale a hawk and retexture it, I guess) and robots. Modeling would probably be the easiest part, there'd be the animation and animation rigging, that'd have to match the existing cast times and recovery animations for the Kheldians. Ensuring the "auras" work appropriately with the model.  This is a lot of work, to the point where making a new AT out of it might actually be easier just for not having to try and finagle it into the Kheld power customization UI. It doesn't seem realistically feasible to consider. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Indystruck
hit the enter button too soon. gj me

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, Indystruck said:

This is being presented as a simple swap. Wasn't the whole reason Khelds never got much in the way of power customization because they were spaghetti nonsense ontop of spaghetti nonsense on live that wasn't viewed as worth the hassle? Like, we got some customization for them now, obviously, but...

 

A simple swap in this instance is being viewed as just a model swap, but there'd still have to be new models, we don't have... any of those models listed except maybe eagles (upscale a hawk and retexture it, I guess) and robots. Modeling would probably be the easiest part, there'd be the animation and animation rigging, that'd have to match the existing cast times and recovery animations for the Kheldians. Ensuring the "auras" work appropriately with the model.  This is a lot of work, to the point where making a new AT out of it might actually be easier just for not having to try and finagle it into the Kheld power customization UI. It doesn't seem realistically feasible to consider. 

Agreed. If you're going to do all that just to get a shapeshifting, I would say just make a new AT. The powers I'd want for a shape shifting AT are 90% NOT what Khelds currently have. And I would not want the to shoe horn things in on Khelds in kludgy, potential AT breaking ways. I have a heavy lack of trust in the sphagehetti code used to build Khelds (animations, powers included).

Edited November 6, 2019 by golstat2003

[Odhinn]

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, DougGraves said:

I am sure this is a lot of work.

Just wanted to point out that I am so glad your post started with this. I always cringe a bit when it is suggested a change should be easy.

[FDR's Think Tank]

On Shapeshifters:

 

I have been thinking about how neat it would be if there was a Stalker "Shapeshifter" powerset. It would let you shapeshift into whatever you target when you activate your "Hide" defense initially. One downside of this set is that you would need to deactivate and reactive the power more often, since disguising yourself as the wrong minion or as an ally hero or as a civilian is an excellent way to get detected when you are trying to infiltrate. Perhaps the benefit of this set could be that while you don't become stealth (Without taking a stealth power pool) you gain more placate options or the ability to "reverse taunt" forcing opponents to temporarily lose your target, thus be reset on being uncertain of your Friend/foe status.

 

As a Non-stalker defense set, Shapeshifting could easily handle Growth/shrinking, fluid flexibility, and bloated expansion... but it would likely be another exclusive toggle defense power set and they haven't exactly fixed the main one we have. Also, I don't know how well Giant Growth will work in the game. The original devs always threw a wet blanket on it, saying the game had too many indoor scenarios and was incompatible with it from both a practical and a visual standpoint. I think a compromise can be reached on low ceiling maps, even if they can't add crouching/crawling animations for cramped giants. Obviously, it's worth considering making serious Giant Growth some sort of Epic Archetype if it requires tons of time to engineer. If it works, they can offer a weaker version as a Power Pool set or Incarnate Power option.

 

I could also see a stretch/morph/grow/shrink attack power set available to melee classes that give them a small striking distance boost. There are so many stretch characters in comics! This would probably the most visually obnoxious/pointless with a Shapeshifter Stalker power set, considering it would instantly give away who the shapeshifter is each time you strike, but in the end, that's pretty much already the case with any primary power pool attacks.

 

Of course, I have no idea what is appropriate for stats, given that this would be a largely concept driven power set, relying on the wacky ability to change into any costume you can.... I suppose it wouldn't be hard for player opponents to figure you out, once you use a non-generic attack... but PvP is hardly a top priority anyway. I doubt a shapeshifting set would ruin the meta, even if it managed to change it significantly.

 

More on the direction of the topic:

 

As far as changing the EAT Aliens goes, it breaks down when you consider how important it really is to the lore. They even have specific foes that deal extra damage to them. Also consider - They have locked origin types, don't they? While it would be cool to have different animation sets to alternate the forms... Dinosaurs, Animals, Fairies, Hamidons, Werewolves/Vampires, and so on... This is probably better addressed by how standard archetypes use the Incarnate System as it continues to evolve and add options for the dedicated character fanatics.

 

Better to consider new AT and EATs to add in than to disrupt the existing ones. Sorta like the power pool policy they had: if they had a highly disruptive or experimental change to make to an existing power set they were trying to balance, they typically kept the old set classic and tried to balance it from it's original concept while trying the new idea out on a new power set. It doesn't SOUND like a disruption until you realize it's just a shoehorned animation that isn't distinct in function and probably confusing on the battlefield. (This game can have really chaotic battlefields right now...)

[boggo2300]

The biggest thing the OP is overlooking is a Khelds main attack streams are tied to the Dwarf and Nova, they are custom powers with animations tied to those custom models,  it would be easier I suspect as was mentioned above, to use the abandoned primalist AT code left in the game (yes it was abandoned, Posi said it himself, said they couldn't figure out how to make it fun to play) everything I've heard from now 2 generations of devs is changing stuff on the Kheld AT's is a nightmare of unintended consequences (I believe thats the reason only one of them has working colour tints)

Edited November 9, 2019 by boggo2300