The time has come to fix AoE Holds/Mezzes

[Crysta Clear]

There's a difference between 'not min-maxing' and 'purposefully nerfing yourself into oblivion.

 

At any rate, there is a reason I have only responded to mathematical suggestions in order to show why they are a bad idea. I do not need to make a "counter proposal," because I'm not the one proposing a change. A "counter proposal" would imply a compromise or a change, which this game does not need. Controllers don't need any buffs. 

 

I have no investment in "wasting anyone's time," but I prefer my games to require a certain amount of thought put into how you play them. Any time a game is made easier, a part of what makes it interesting dies.

Edited December 29, 2019 by GM Mathison
Removing insulting language

[Galaxy Brain]

The game is balanced around SOs to a degree, in that they are the bare bones "oh look I got stuff" item that somebody brand new to the game would get and have immediate knowledge of how to use. Unlike even the basic IO enhancements which require further research on how to use, you get normal enhancements all the time via drops, stores, and missions where they appear in your enhancements tray and are immediately slottable. 

 

They are the baseline for effect.

 

Are they also much, much worse than IOs? Yes.

 

Do we know that literally all players, or even a majority are using IOs? No

 

Until we get metrics to say that "oh, 90% of HC players are using IOs", I dont think it's good to balance around them. Especially since they are so varied in terms of what you slot for.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Super Atom]

This guy gets it. You can keep IOs in mind but they can not be the base.

[RabbitUp]

13 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

No, it would make it possible to achieve with IOs in only one power. As it stands with 240 / 14.9...

http://prntscr.com/qh18ba

 

...the same build and the same bonuses get to 60.96 / 31.42, barely over 50% uptime. You need two AoE hard controls to alternate if you want to keep a group locked down forever. Redlynne's dumb idea would make 100% uptime a one-power thing.

 

I will always look at IOs for balance, because quite frankly? It's still a part of the game that needs consideration, especially since the base power stats you're asking to have buffed will affect both early- and late-game balance.

 

You can already achieve 100% stun uptime with Earth/Fire/Gravity/Darkness. You throw an AoE immob and you effectively have a perma group hold. Plant on the other hand has 100% confuse uptime. So, for all these control sets, their AoE holds are IO mules, or just a tool for when someone aggros a second mob and you already used your stun.

 

We can clearly see that AoE holds are in an awkward spot and don't justify their current limitations when stuns are effectively the same thing.

 

That been said, I don't think recharge reduction is what they need. Instead, I think increased reliability is the way to go. A power with a 4 minute cooldown should not have 60% accuracy. And for controllers only. I think the hold mag should be increased to 4 (basically increase the Overpower proc from 20% to 100% for these powers only). That way, these powers should feel like the CC version of a nuke.

[Galaxy Brain]

23 minutes ago, RabbitUp said:

You can already achieve 100% stun uptime with Earth/Fire/Gravity/Darkness.

This is another very fair point. Many AoE control effects essentially give you AoE hold mitigation already. Elec's Sleep Patch, AoE confuses, Earth's and Ice's KD Patches, Dark's Fearsome Stare and so on all essentially lock down enemies from attacking you back, which combined with an AoE immobilize shortly after will mimic an AoE hold in most cases. The difference being you need to combine the effects, but still.

[boggo2300]

6 hours ago, Super Atom said:

This guy gets it. You can keep IOs in mind but they can not be the base.

All our opinions on what type of enh powers should be balanced around are irrelevant, CptPowerhouse balances them around SO's and since he's the one that looks after power balance for HC thats pretty much all she wrote...

Edited December 30, 2019 by boggo2300
edit to remove random "how"

[Super Atom]

57 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

All our opinions on what type of enh powers should be balanced around are irrelevant, CptPowerhouse balances them around SO's and since he's the one that looks after power balance for HC thats pretty much how all she wrote...

Thank god for that.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

All our opinions on what type of enh powers should be balanced around are irrelevant, CptPowerhouse balances them around SO's and since he's the one that looks after power balance for HC thats pretty much all she wrote...

And because they tend to centralize balance around SO levels, they also keep the level of capabilities mild so likely +1/x2 or x3.  You DO NOT need AoE holds that recharge that fast and last that long against smaller-type near even-level spawns.

 

So regardless of if you think SOs are the focus or if IOs get the spotlight, this idea, as presented, does not fit.  It just doesn't.

 

Or do you think, just because a SO level build can only keep up the proposed control less than half the time on high level teams that that is the target goal?  Nope.  SO level builds aren't for high level min/max'ed teams!  Or at least they are damn well not meant to keep over 16 +5lvl foes at bay single-handedly for nearly a minute.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

And because they tend to centralize balance around SO levels, they also keep the level of capabilities mild so likely +1/x2 or x3.  You DO NOT need AoE holds that recharge that fast and last that long against smaller-type near even-level spawns.

 

So regardless of if you think SOs are the focus or if IOs get the spotlight, this idea, as presented, does not fit.  It just doesn't.

 

Or do you think, just because a SO level build can only keep up the proposed control less than half the time on high level teams that that is the target goal?  Nope.  SO level builds aren't for high level min/max'ed teams!  Or at least they are damn well not meant to keep over 16 +5lvl foes at bay single-handedly for nearly a minute.

my only comments in this thread have been to correct incorrect assumptions about things like what powers are balanced around, I have no opinion on the control changes themselves at all

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

my only comments in this thread have been to correct incorrect assumptions about things like what powers are balanced around, I have no opinion on the control changes themselves at all

Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you.  More specifically, posters who have been arguing whether balance is looking specifically in one direction, the other or both to different degrees.

 

To me, IOs have needed a nerf for a long time but that's neither here nor there.  

[GM Miss]

Hey guys! Once again - please keep your responses and replies respectful. This will be the last warning to be kind before mutes are handed out. You can have productive discussions without calling names and being rude. Thank you!

Edited December 30, 2019 by GM Miss

[RabbitUp]

6 hours ago, Leogunner said:

And because they tend to centralize balance around SO levels, they also keep the level of capabilities mild so likely +1/x2 or x3.  You DO NOT need AoE holds that recharge that fast and last that long against smaller-type near even-level spawns.

 

So regardless of if you think SOs are the focus or if IOs get the spotlight, this idea, as presented, does not fit.  It just doesn't.

 

You don't need them because there are other powers that do their job better, as I said above. If we didn't have spammable stuns and confuses, you would hear people complaining a lot more about the state of controllers.

[tidge]

On 12/29/2019 at 4:07 AM, parabola said:

To my mind the aoe holds have become very optional powers, emergency use at best. I'm tending to leave them out these days favouring powers that can be used on every spawn. If that fits the design intention then that's fine but if not perhaps they could do with a tweak.

Hmmm. This isn't how I play AoE controls (a larger set than just Holds, including Mass Confusion, Invoke Panic, etc.), at least not on solo-running characters that can't AoE nuke every +N/x8 mob of enemies. When running solo against a large number of spawns, the toons with AoE controls have a separate control/AoE attack chain that is commensurate with the faster-cycling single-target attacks.

 

The above use is in addition to what was described as 'emergency' use, but one player's emergency is another player's default standard of play. In my experience the AoE controls (again, more than just Holds) are not just great for rescuing teammates who are in over their heads, but also very good for priming large spawns in 'defeat all missions' when teaming. Here I'm referring to AoE controls that can result in some amount of damage as well.

On 12/29/2019 at 3:10 AM, MTeague said:

Hey!  Keep your paws off Mass Confusion, I love that power.  I'm fine if an additional power that's mutually exclusive with it is added to Mind Control, but don't be messin with my fav toy.

/agreed. It loses its luster on large teams that can nuke every group of enemies, and at +0/x1 the spawns aren't really big enough to enjoy it,  but I find it to be incredibly useful when soloing content with larger team sizes. It is especially fun to find those large groups that don't particularly resist their own damage type!

[Parabola]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

Hmmm. This isn't how I play AoE controls (a larger set than just Holds, including Mass Confusion, Invoke Panic, etc.), at least not on solo-running characters that can't AoE nuke every +N/x8 mob of enemies. When running solo against a large number of spawns, the toons with AoE controls have a separate control/AoE attack chain that is commensurate with the faster-cycling single-target attacks.

 

The above use is in addition to what was described as 'emergency' use, but one player's emergency is another player's default standard of play. In my experience the AoE controls (again, more than just Holds) are not just great for rescuing teammates who are in over their heads, but also very good for priming large spawns in 'defeat all missions' when teaming. Here I'm referring to AoE controls that can result in some amount of damage as well.

I think you've misunderstood me slightly. My comment was specifically about the aoe holds. I'm tending to leave them out of builds in favour of the softer but 'available every spawn' controls. I'm certainly not leaving all controls behind, although I can be guilty of slotting them as attacks that mez rather than mezzes that do a bit of damage!

 

It's the aoe holds that just look a bit redundant with their very limited uptime. It's interesting that the earth control mass hold was left alone in that original balance pass. It is arguably the strongest hold mechanically anyway due to it's ability to self stack and it's part of arguably the strongest controlling set. Why that was the one that got left alone is beyond me.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, parabola said:

I think you've misunderstood me slightly. My comment was specifically about the aoe holds. I'm tending to leave them out of builds in favour of the softer but 'available every spawn' controls. I'm certainly not leaving all controls behind, although I can be guilty of slotting them as attacks that mez rather than mezzes that do a bit of damage!

Well there's an idea.

 

The OP and proponents offered suggestions to remove the old nerf to the AoE hold.  What if, instead, if they aren't  performing up to you guys' standards, you gain something (increased duration, cut recharge or both) but lose something as well (I suggested lowering the area and target cap) OR you can change them to do something else...like make those AoE holds superior damage attacks that also have hold effects (same duration, of course).  I also wouldn't be against removing the accuracy penalty.

 

2 hours ago, parabola said:

It's the aoe holds that just look a bit redundant with their very limited uptime. It's interesting that the earth control mass hold was left alone in that original balance pass. It is arguably the strongest hold mechanically anyway due to it's ability to self stack and it's part of arguably the strongest controlling set. Why that was the one that got left alone is beyond me.

Earth sets tend to be thematically defensive and very controlly.  Stone Armor used to be the epitome of "you can't kill me" thanks to Granite, Stone Melee is all about the control with the stun, knockdown and holds, and Earth Control has good coverage for controls but also debuffs for defense (makes it easier to land controls) and ToHit.  

[Galaxy Brain]

Earth Control also has poo damage potential in exchange for its control

[Parabola]

36 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The OP and proponents offered suggestions to remove the old nerf to the AoE hold.  What if, instead, if they aren't  performing up to you guys' standards, you gain something (increased duration, cut recharge or both) but lose something as well (I suggested lowering the area and target cap) OR you can change them to do something else...like make those AoE holds superior damage attacks that also have hold effects (same duration, of course).  I also wouldn't be against removing the accuracy penalty.

Yeah interesting. Would an aoe hold be more worth it with double the duration, half the cooldown but a target cap of say 6 in a small area? They would be very different powers that's for sure!

 

To be honest I'm not really saying that control sets need more control, I think they are doing ok. It's just that the aoe hold seems like it should be something of a crown jewel in the set and at the minute they seem quite skippable.

 

40 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Earth sets tend to be thematically defensive and very controlly.

Indeed. It's just odd that they went to the effort of nerfing all the aoe holds, but then leaving volcanic gasses alone which is arguably the best of them. It's just a weird decision. It would be like the current devs deciding all melee sets needed a nerf apart from titan weapons.

 

29 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Earth Control also has poo damage potential in exchange for its control

Not these days with ppm procs but that obviously isn't the original balance point.

[Replacement]

I saw some mention of Controllers being top-performers -- How are they really performing in common content these days?  I don't play Controllers so I'm more curious than informed.  My understanding was "fire/kin is OP, everything else is just playing their Secondary in anything 50+." 

 

I'm sure there are other good combos, but I'm still left with the sense that if you're running "rote" content, you're rotating Judgement nukes and the AVs don't care about your holds.

 

On 12/28/2019 at 11:48 PM, Crysta Clear said:

I think it's fine. I'd rather have all ranged sets nerfed to equal Assault Rifle than to have Assault Rifle buffed to match other ranged sets.

/shocked.  I am usually on the other side of issues from you, but I seriously think I just about agree with you here.  I think this game needs mostly nerfs, but there are certain situations where I think buffs are warranted more for enjoyment than for power (Stone Armor, Energy Melee, Stone Armor, and Stone Armor being the big ones).

 

Of course, you'll see me proposing buffs anyway entirely because "please nerf these 7 sets and these 6 entire ATs" is just not the hill I'll be dying on, today.

 

----

 

Consideration for aoe holds:

• Want to dampen the impact of IOs?  Consider adding an unenhanceable portion to the recharge of these powers.  For example: Base recharge of 60 seconds +unenhanceable/resistable +100% recharge penalty.  This gives it a 2-minute base, but even maxed recharge will only lower it to 72 seconds. (insert your own best-judgement numbers here)
• Alternatively (definitely NOT in addition to): a bump up of the Mag of these powers would good.  If they were something ridiculous like Mag 6, they would feel like the "Nukes" of controls, capable of even locking down a boss in a click.  This can really only make sense for Controller versions of the powers, though.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Replacement

[RabbitUp]

I think we can all at least agree that removing the accuracy penalty from a 4min cooldown power would be a good first step. Especially since it punishes average builds more than it punishes decked-out IO builds.

 

As for cooldown, I don't think it would really help that much. As said before, common practice is to focus on a "available every spawn" power which typically have 60 to 90s base cooldown. Having your AoE hold up more often doesn't really offer much when the stun/confuse is pulling all the weight. This is different for Fortunatas, who have to cycle between 3 different AoE CC all with high cooldowns, but as long as control sets have a low cooldown option, that's what you will build around.

 

That's why I prefer the idea of making the aoe holds the nuke of CC. Increase the Containment proc to 100% to effectively make them all mag4 so that you can hold bosses with 1 cast and elite bosses with the AoE+ST holds without relying on rng.

[oedipus_tex]

Here's how I'd personally want to approach these powers:

• Raise target cap from 16 to 40 (see: Judgment blasts)
• Unnerf accuracy
• Apply a -Special Resist to enemies hit with the power for X time, so any other controls used on them afterward last longer. E.g. for Glacier, apply -Confuse Resist so that Arctic Air's Confusion effect is stronger for the next 30 seconds.

 

 

Mass Confusion meanwhile should be treated independently and have its cooldown reduced to 120 seconds or lower. It was originally set to 240 because there was nothing to compare it to--there were no other AoE Confuses. Now we have Synaptic Overload and Seeds of Confusion with sixty second cooldowns. Both powers have some disadvantages compared to Mass Confusion, but also Mind Control gives up a pet for this power. It really does not a deserve a cooldown that is x4 longer versus sets with tons of other functionality.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[Galaxy Brain]

I like the idea of these being Nuke-Controls rather than just "AoE Control". At a 4 min rech, they should not have the acc bonus and they should totally have a higher magnitude of effect. 

 

Sure, at max Recharge you can get these up kinda often, but at max recharge you can already do bonkers-insane stuff anyway.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[MetaVileTerror]

I'd just like to point to Atomic Manipulation's Radioactive Cloud.
Activation:  1.07s
Recharge:  90s !!!
Endurance Cost:  20.18
Accuracy:  1.00x !
Area Effect:  Unlisted?
Target Cap:  Unlisted?
Mag 3 Hold for 17.15s at 35 / 19.07s at 50 !
 

and to Plant Manipulation's Vines.

Activation Time:  3.10s

Recharge:  90s !!!

Endurance Cost:  20.18

Accuracy:  0.80x

Area Effect:  15ft

Target Cap: 10

Mag 3 Hold for 8.58s at 35 / 9.54s at 50

If Blasters are allowed to have this level of AoE Control, why aren't Controllers and Dominators?

I know some people will call for these to be nerfed, but it's not like they're actually overpowered.  They're reasonable, frankly.  What's unreasonable if where the Control Sets' Holds are presently.

If people are honestly, actually concerned about "City of Statues to Beat Up," let's perhaps invest in giving enemies more tools to counter Control in large mobs.  Such as Support units who cast Control Protection Buffs on their allies.  Or low value PBAoE Status Resistance Buffs from Lts and medium value from Bosses, so their presence makes Minions a little more challenging to overwhelm completely.

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

If people are honestly, actually concerned about "City of Statues to Beat Up,"

Except ... City of Statues is what Controllers are FOR(!!) ... it's what Controllers were MADE to do!

If you can't do damage, you fail at Blaster.

If you can't buff/debuff, you fail at Defender.

If you can't do damage, you fail at Scrapper.

If you can't take aggro/damage, you fail at Tanker.

 

If you fail at control ... well, that's only to be expected ... from a Controller ... because if you could CONTROL then that would be ... um ... something something ... unfair to everyone else?

7 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

let's perhaps invest in giving enemies more tools to counter Control in large mobs.  Such as Support units who cast Control Protection Buffs on their allies.  Or low value PBAoE Status Resistance Buffs from Lts and medium value from Bosses, so their presence makes Minions a little more challenging to overwhelm completely.

So ... create new problems in order to "solve" them?

Uh ... let's not and just pretend you didn't propose what you just suggested, shall we?

 

I mean, to be clear ... if you wanted to go down the can of worms you're suggesting be opened ... it would only be FAIR to not only add Mez Protection Auras and Status Resistance Auras to Lieutenants and Bosses, like you're suggesting ... but also Defense vs All, Resistance vs All, Debuff Resistance vs All and include Taunt Protection+Resistance so as to nerf EVERYONE ... not just Controllers (with a sideswipe at Dominators with the backswing on the iron core nerf bat you're proposing).

 

Um ... NO.

Let's NOT dive headfirst into the can of worms you shouldn't be opening, shall we?

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Except ... City of Statues is what Controllers are FOR(!!) ... it's what Controllers were MADE to do!

If you can't do damage, you fail at Blaster.

If you can't buff/debuff, you fail at Defender.

If you can't do damage, you fail at Scrapper.

If you can't take aggro/damage, you fail at Tanker.

 

If you fail at control ... well, that's only to be expected ... from a Controller ... because if you could CONTROL then that would be ... um ... something something ... unfair to everyone else?

You shouldn't be able to turn entire spawns into statues with a single power every group, though. That's why the AoE controls were nerfed in the first place.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Vanden

[MetaVileTerror]

Actually, with how many people are claiming "the game is too easy already," why -not- give enemies those Buff Auras?
As an option.
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/11876-new-difficulty-mechanic-advanced-enemies/
 
I was only playing devil's advocate for all those players who keep harping on this concept that somehow their experience with the game's current difficulty is universal.  
I'm all-for restoring the AoE Holds to Issue 0 levels without any other change.  I just prefer to provide compromises since other people have different experiences and preferences.  s'what I do.