Suggestion: Non Visual Rocket Pack ( Prestige Flight )

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

no I want the jetpacks slowed because they are not powers, I think they are too useful and have since they were introduced, I think all the "temp" travel powers are WAY overpowered

So you want to wait for people to putter along to get to the mission? Or try and take down the rikti/arachnos flyer on sub hover speed?  Or not have to deal with the hassle of navigating red side early zones without some dumb jetpack clipping in their face.

 

It's opposing a minor QOL adjustment to punish people for not playing your way. One something that has ZERO impact you.  And primarily targets roleplayer types.

[boggo2300]

Just now, Bossk_Hogg said:

So you want to wait for people to putter along to get to the mission? Or try and take down the rikti/arachnos flyer on sub hover speed?  Or not have to deal with the hassle of navigating red side early zones without some dumb jetpack clipping in their face.

 

It's opposing a minor QOL adjustment to punish people for not playing your way. One something that has ZERO impact you.  And primarily targets roleplayer types.

why so aggressive to people who don't do as you wish? calm down, believe it or not other people are allowed to have opinions, I'm not calling for changes to be made, I'm just saying degrading the systems the game was built around more are a bad idea, you don't need to jump down my throat about it

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

why so aggressive to people who don't do as you wish? calm down, believe it or not other people are allowed to have opinions, I'm not calling for changes to be made, I'm just saying degrading the systems the game was built around more are a bad idea, you don't need to jump down my throat about it

Providing an option for a time-gated temp flight power without the jetpack graphical element is hardly "degrading the systems the game was built around".

[boggo2300]

Just now, biostem said:

Providing an option for a time-gated temp flight power without the jetpack graphical element is hardly "degrading the systems the game was built around".

i it was still actually time gated that would mean something, however the time gate is now a minor inconvenience and nothing more

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

i it was still actually time gated that would mean something, however the time gate is now a minor inconvenience and nothing more

It's time-gated in 2 senses of the term;  1. you need to get the inf to buy it, (a relatively small amount, admittedly), and 2. it only lasts about 30 minutes each purchase.  Regardless, the power(s) are already in the game.  Whether using it has the graphical element of a Sky Raider Jetpack, a Goldbricker Jet pack, or, (what's being requested), no jet pack, what's the difference to your game play?

Edited January 14, 2020 by biostem

[boggo2300]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's time-gated in 2 senses of the term;  1. you need to get the inf to buy it, (a relatively small amount, admittedly), and 2. it only lasts about 30 minutes each purchase.  Regardless, the power(s) are already in the game.  Whether using it has the graphical element of a Sky Raider Jetpack, a Goldbricker Jet pack, or, (what's being requested), no jet pack, what's the difference to your game play?

I'm not the one trying to change anything and add feature creep, so it seems silly that I need to justify myself further than I have, which is, I think the continual feature creep from these "quality of life" changes constantly piling up will in my opinion kill the game

[biostem]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

I'm not the one trying to change anything and add feature creep, so it seems silly that I need to justify myself further than I have, which is, I think the continual feature creep from these "quality of life" changes constantly piling up will in my opinion kill the game

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree that "feature creep" will "kill the game".  You may not be arguing to add features to the game - instead, you are arguing to enforce the status quo.  Neither are inherently bad positions to take, provided you can actually support your position.  If all you have are opinions... well that's not going to make much headway.

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree that "feature creep" will "kill the game".  You may not be arguing to add features to the game - instead, you are arguing to enforce the status quo.  Neither are inherently bad positions to take, provided you can actually support your position.  If all you have are opinions... well that's not going to make much headway.

that plays both ways, there has been nothing pro this change but opinions either, silly argument to make about it really

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

that plays both ways, there has been nothing pro this change but opinions either, silly argument to make about it really

The "pro" is that it permits a character who would not use technological means of flight to still benefit from something already available in the P2W vendor.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

The "pro" is that it permits a character who would not use technological means of flight to still benefit from something already available in the P2W vendor.

so thats not possible by taking flight huh? you know an actual POWER?   this is silly, not a single compelling reason has been given for this change, I'm out the fanatic desire for more for less is too tiring to deal with

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

so thats not possible by taking flight huh? you know an actual POWER?   this is silly, not a single compelling reason has been given for this change, I'm out the fanatic desire for more for less is too tiring to deal with

Well fairness I suppose.   Letting the magic people get the same as the tech people. 

 

I always have natural or tech concepts so doesn't matter to me personally. 

 

But I see no functional difference between a sky raider jet pack and a magic broomstick.  

 

 

[Monos King]

This is so weird. I'm going to start off by saying we have pretty much collectively decided travel is something to be taken for granted now; not a privilege to eventually be earned but a certain feature. That was reinforced by the decrease in level to acquire travel powers, Khelds having no level requirement, ninja run and prestige accessories being free, etc. Travel is just not the novelty it once was, so the mods request comes easy to understand. All things considered, it's practically just the next step.

 

That being said, I still disagree. Fly was and still should be thematically determined by you. You want magic based fly, you get fly and toss on an aura. You want tech based fly, you learn the skill (get the power) and strap on a jetpack back piece. In homecoming, that's readily accessible! They even imported the mystic flight to help add thematic value for magic users (which I have mixed feelings on undermining ordinary flight considering the above but whatever it's cool.)

 

The temp power flight power was just a tool you threw on to get places obligatorily. It was never meant to be a substitute for the true flight you attain as part of the committment to your character, there are no shortcuts. It was clunky for a reason.

 

There was never a need for theme oriented temp travels as such supremely undermines existing options and the customization centrism we all love, ninja and beast runs were the only exceptions (likely because they couldn't be fitted under any pools) and frankly could've just been power spectrum'ed super speed reskins, and if we are going to start putting resources in the p2w vendor that are actually integral to our character designs in some regard then that name really just got a lot less fun. Contemplatively against this one guys.

[Lines]

I can clarify my position a little bit - it comes from somewhere a lot more fundamental than 'who can fly and how'.

 

I thiny any pay-to-win is a violation of the integrity of a game, and the Paragon Store was a significant violation of that integrity for CoH. The veteran rewards, at least, were gimmicky.

 

The P2W vendor is a vehicle by which that monetarily gated content can be made available. It's a bit of a sledgehammer solution to a problem and now that problem is solved. I don't think the P2W vendor should be the way to solve further, minor scruples that people have.

 

I'd like to see the P2W inventory dispersed across less 4th-wall-breaking NPCs - there could be a jetpack vendor, a weapons master, npcs to teach the travel modes, and XP modifiers given to the Fortunas/Hero Corps Analysts. I concede that nothing from the Veteran Rewards and Paragon Store should be gated - that would be bruising. But I don't think the inventory should be expanded.

 

That, plus the status quo of character-defining travel being within builds, is my opposition. If it did happen, I'd not be up in arms about it. I'd probably just mutter something to the effect of 'there goes the neighborhood' and be on my merry way.

[Si1verg1ass]

I too would vote for adding a magical version of this power w/o the tech special effect.  It could be a belt, a ring, boots or a bracelet as well as just a spell that you can cast that uses the mystic flight.  It costs you 5k to 50k like the jet packs per half hour of use. 

 

While I can understand Lines concerns, it is water under the bridge.  The HC team has chosen to add tech solutions to the game for flight.  They have added it into the game and people are going to use it for all its worth.  I know for a fact there are some that are using that for their travel power because it allows them to strengthen their character somewhere else (they don't have to use a slot for a travel power) by adding in another power.  Is the jet pack wrong?  Is it right?  Irrelevant as jet packs are already in the game.

 

So, if you are magical or mutation and want the same opportunity to have an ability so you can also get that extra power that you otherwise would have to spend on a travel power is 'bad'?  If it wasn't already in the game and being used that way it would be another matter.  The people that are magical in background want the same opportunities as are already being afforded those w/ tech or natural backgrounds that can thematically fit (or choose to ignore theme altogether) it into their character concept w/ a power that the developers chose to add into the game. 

 

It isn't about adding something that isn't already in the game, it is about leveling the field so everyone is on the same field.  And no, the magic carpet, rocketboard, flying disc aren't solutions.  Not when they detoggle you and the jet packs do not.  Plus you can still attack with the jet packs running whereas for the others you cannot.  

 

The only other solution I can see is to remove the jet packs from the P2W Vendor and if an arc/tf needs a jet pack give it to the player.  Further, the character could only ACCESS the jet pack while on that arc/tf so they couldn't just open an arc and leave it fallow to abuse the travel power. When that arc/tf is complete, poof the jet pack goes away.  Ideally that is what they would have done.  The developers chose differently though and now that choice drives the suggestions to expand it.  The animations are already in the game, so it wouldn't be hard (massive programming change) to implement.

 

Now having said all that, most of my 119 characters have travel powers.  For thematic reasons it fits in on most of them that way.  There are several though, I would like to have the option to cast a spell, wear a ring, etc... which I have to go back and get renewed from time to time so that I could fit that one more power in that I wasn't able to because I needed to be able to fly w/o breaking the concept by having a big ugly jet pack strapped to my character's back.

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 1/14/2020 at 10:42 AM, Lines said:

 

I do not. The game still has to function as an RPG, and obey its own rules therein. Where a character's ability is innate or intrinsic to the character, that belongs to their build and not to a store.

 

Going forward, the P2W store should only provide extrinsic abilities. Providing jetpacks works in that sense. It breaks the rule in places like animal transformations and ninja and beast run, but I don't think that the slippery slope away from the game as an immersive RPG and towards the metagame should continue.

You wouldnt even know they are using an invisible jetpack unless you intentionally went looking for a way to break your "immersion".

 

This is simply about being contrarian and imposing your own tastes on others when it impacts you in no reasonable way.  

[Greycat]

Short form:

"I would like a/some different graphical option(s) for an already existing item."

 

Works for me. No different than having five or six different jetpack options to pick from like we do now (regular, goldbricker, holiday, longbow - two different ones, IIRC....)

Edited October 22, 2020 by Greycat

[Lines]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

You wouldnt even know they are using an invisible jetpack unless you intentionally went looking for a way to break your "immersion".

 

This is simply about being contrarian and imposing your own tastes on others when it impacts you in no reasonable way.  

Am I being contrarian? What I described is the existing state of the game. Reality is doing the imposing, I'm just rationalising why it might be that way.

 

But also, like, months ago.

[ninja surprise]

On 1/15/2020 at 1:33 AM, Monos King said:

This is so weird. I'm going to start off by saying we have pretty much collectively decided travel is something to be taken for granted now; not a privilege to eventually be earned but a certain feature. That was reinforced by the decrease in level to acquire travel powers, Khelds having no level requirement, ninja run and prestige accessories being free, etc. Travel is just not the novelty it once was, so the mods request comes easy to understand. All things considered, it's practically just the next step.

I think super travel powers should be an inherent choosable pool.  There is no superhero that doesn't have a way of getting around. 

On 1/15/2020 at 1:33 AM, Monos King said:

 Fly was and still should be thematically determined by you. You want magic based fly, you get fly and toss on an aura. 

Yeah, that's what this idea is, person wants a fly with a theme matching their concept.

There's two perspectives here: 1) People who want the game to match the way they want to play, and 2) People who want to force everyone to play the way they think the game should work.

I'm in group 1, I think players should have all the options and play how it makes them happy. If you want the "as it was on Live" experience there are other servers specializing in that.

On 1/15/2020 at 1:33 AM, Monos King said:

There was never a need for theme oriented temp travels as such supremely undermines existing options and the customization centrism we all love, ninja and beast runs were the only exceptions (likely because they couldn't be fitted under any pools) and frankly could've just been power spectrum'ed super speed reskins, and if we are going to start putting resources in the p2w vendor that are actually integral to our character designs in some regard then that name really just got a lot less fun. Contemplatively against this one guys.

You're wrong. Ninja and Beast run were original RMT purchases from the NCSoft store. They were also given to vet players who had maintained paid accounts for a certain length of time.

(Almost) All the P2W stuff used to be Vet rewards to players that had paid for their subscription for years and years and now Homecoming gives it for free to brand new accounts at level 1. I was a paid subscriber for over 5 years, had everything unlocked, and now people who never played live can waltz in and get it from day one. Am I mad? No! Not in the least! Everyone should have options and tons of fun and be super heroic!

 

You're right, it is so weird that your fun is based on what other people do, not on what you do.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

I think super travel powers should be an inherent choosable pool.  There is no superhero that doesn't have a way of getting around. 

Cyclops.  Iron Fist.  I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds of other examples.

 

The travel power thing is complicated.  On the one hand, I don't really like that there is optimization pressure to skip travel powers in the game.  A lot of these powers are very core thematic elements to the characters: Superman isn't Superman if he can't fly[1].  Nightcrawler isn't Nightcrawler if he can't teleport.  We don't have a really good equivalent of Spider-Man's webslinging, but the kind of urban mobility at least vaguely represented by superjump is central to a lot of characters as well.  And of course superspeed is completely defining to a LOT of characters.

 

On some level, I guess I'd like it if we all got one slot that had to be used for a travel power, so that people couldn't sacrifice it for a bit more defense or whatever.  But then, there are characters who really thematically work without travel powers, or who would genuinely like more than one.  Probably the amount of change made to really make them "work" would be vast compared to the reward.

 

[1] Yes, I know he couldn't fly very early in his character history.  He wasn't Superman as we think of the character, then.

Edited October 22, 2020 by aethereal

[Player2]

In case it hasn't been said, jetpacks are slower.  Yes, only a little, but they are and they can't be enhanced to increase speed or to reduce Endurance cost if you plan on fighting in the air.  And on top of that, the rocket board, void skiff, and flying carpets negate all other powers (even toggles which don't have to be animated to be useful instead of just putting the character into a Only Affecting Self state).

 

Leave the various flight temp powers alone.  Actual flight powers (Flight and Sorcery pools) are superior.

[Greycat]

19 minutes ago, aethereal said:

The travel power thing is complicated.  On the one hand, I don't really like that there is optimization pressure to skip travel powers in the game.

 

This is not new. There have always been people who chose not to take travel powers in order to take other (primary/secondary/pool) powers, since live. (I seem to remember hearing more about them when VEATs came out. And of course Khelds had them baked in, but that's not quite the same.)

 

Ninja/Beast run encouraged this, too, for some.

[aethereal]

32 minutes ago, Greycat said:

This is not new. There have always been people who chose not to take travel powers in order to take other (primary/secondary/pool) powers, since live. (I seem to remember hearing more about them when VEATs came out. And of course Khelds had them baked in, but that's not quite the same.)

 

Ninja/Beast run encouraged this, too, for some.

I know.  I didn't like it then, either.

[Myrmidon]

On 1/14/2020 at 2:57 PM, Haijinx said:

Those detoggle you, don't they?  Like the rocket board.

 

Making their use in missions dicey

I have those on many of my Magic origins, however, they rarely see use. Retoggling after ever trip on the magic carpet is not a circumstance that I can tolerate for very long.

[Greycat]

21 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I know.  I didn't like it then, either.

Thing is, it doesn't affect your gameplay at all, so...

Neither did the times people (including me) didn't take the fitness pool (yes, that was a thing.)

Or that I (for instance) don't bother perma-ing anything, or almost never take hasten.

 

I guess what it boils down to, for my POV, is "If it bothers you, you don't have to do it." It's not changing the game. Mobs and content are not being created on the assumption that "You only use a temp travel power, so your defense/offense/whatever is greater" (also part of the issue - not taking a travel power does not mean your defense or resistance is higher or necessarily that you're stronger. Maybe someone dipped into medicine so they could heal *and* rez someone.)

 

I mean, you said - "A lot of these powers are very core thematic elements to the characters." And gave examples. But there are plenty of other characters who *don't* do that. Daredevil, for instance, isn't known for ... I don't know, Devilflight, or Devilporting everywhere. There are plenty of examples of comic characters who have no "travel power" at all and take a bus, or car, or are driven in a limo, or take a plane (see also "Go go justice public transportation!") They're not 'less' of a character for doing that.

 

So, why sit on the side of "people have to sacrifice this part of their concept for a travel power?" They're taking the equivalent of the bus - limited time, costs money, can't be enhanced, can't be used for a mule (and as a side note, that's what some travel powers/pools are weighted by - can someone throw a KB protection or LOTG in it, more than 'this is my travel power.') For my money, meta-wise, all the perma-this and cap-that is a *far* bigger worry for impact on gameplay.

[aethereal]

49 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I mean, you said - "A lot of these powers are very core thematic elements to the characters." And gave examples. But there are plenty of other characters who *don't* do that. Daredevil, for instance, isn't known for ... I don't know, Devilflight, or Devilporting everywhere. There are plenty of examples of comic characters who have no "travel power" at all and take a bus, or car, or are driven in a limo, or take a plane (see also "Go go justice public transportation!") They're not 'less' of a character for doing that.

 

That's probably why I said, " But then, there are characters who really thematically work without travel powers," yes.

 

49 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

So, why sit on the side of "people have to sacrifice this part of their concept for a travel power?" They're taking the equivalent of the bus - limited time, costs money, can't be enhanced, can't be used for a mule (and as a side note, that's what some travel powers/pools are weighted by - can someone throw a KB protection or LOTG in it, more than 'this is my travel power.') For my money, meta-wise, all the perma-this and cap-that is a *far* bigger worry for impact on gameplay.

 

You can cap speed with the temp powers.

 

You can't put a LotG in any travel power, and you can put a KB protection in every travel power.

 

Travel powers are pretty low down the list of major imbalances in CoH!  But it's still a bit of a bummer that you might very much want a travel power for theme but the power serves no real purpose in terms of utility.