I can play City of Heroes blindfolded. With my forehead.

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think we all agree that optional difficulty is the way to go. Just to say it a gain, a rebalance of the entire game isn't realistic for an upaid volunteer dev team.

We can for sure agree to this. Common ground, I love it.  🙂

[Infinitum]

22 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

IMO it was, in your opinion it wasn't. What, it's not okay for me to feel like the game was better then but it's oklay for you to think it's better now?

Yes

[Super Atom]

My problem with everything you said @Solarverse is it boiled down to basically "How dare you say he can't have an opinion" while telling people they can't have an opinion. I responded to his idea on +8 and why it would not work even on teams and then agreed that +5 or +6 while incarnated and +7 while incarnated could be ok. You jumped on people for disagreeing with his initial burst of complaining about attunement and people requesting specific things in certain power sets being buffed and to make it worse went on a seemingly out of your butt recollection of exactly who was able to do what back in the day. I repeat, just because you weren't good at CoH back then doesn't mean everyone else wasn't too and for you to snub your nose at people calling them elitist is an absolute dick head of a move. You sir are not worth talking to beyond this point especially if you can't be bothered to read past page 1 before ranting. People did not disagree with him about optional difficulty, they disagreed with him about removing features just because he thinks the game is too easy.

 

 

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

My problem with everything you said @Solarverse is it boiled down to basically "How dare you say he can't have an opinion" while telling people they can't have an opinion.

 

 

Huh? Never said that. As far as the rest of your comment goes, we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think comments were anywhere near as innocent as you feel they were, but again, this is where we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

[Solarverse]

59 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

So again, I think you need to clarify what stage of the game you think is better than now.

 

Just seen this. To be more specific, I am speaking of the mechanics of the game then in comparison to what it is today. IO's, Incarnates, difficulty slider, and so on. IMO, there should be a setting you can chose upon character creation that won't allow that character to have IO's or Incarnates and takes away the difficulty option and forces you to play the game with the old school difficulty settings. Probably not the best idea, but that gives you an idea of what I personally am after here in terms of mechanics. I would also (although I know this won't ever happen) like to see (under the same mechanics rules of no IOs or no Incarnates) like to see the aggro cap increased by double, to increase risk of over aggro and increase chance of team wipes without proper pulls.

 

And no, I don't want to herd, I just miss the "OH SHIT!" days when you accidentally pulled too many mobs and your team faced the battle of their life trying to stay alive. That was very fun to me. Granted, that will never happen, but I think it helps you understand what type of difficulty I am talking about and what type of mechanics that used to really keep me on the edge of my seat in those days.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Just seen this. To be more specific, I am speaking of the mechanics of the game then in comparison to what it is today. IO's, Incarnates, difficulty slider, and so on. IMO, there should be a setting you can chose upon character creation that won't allow that character to have IO's or Incarnates and takes away the difficulty option and forces you to play the game with the old school difficulty settings. Probably not the best idea, but that gives you an idea of what I personally am after here in terms of mechanics. I would also (although I know this won't ever happen) like to see (under the same mechanics rules of no IOs or no Incarnates) like to see the aggro cap increased by double, to increase risk of over aggro and increase chance of team wipes without proper pulls.

 

And no, I don't want to herd, I just miss the "OH SHIT!" days when you accidentally pulled too many mobs and your team faced the battle of their life trying to stay alive. That was very fun to me. Granted, that will never happen, but I think it helps you understand what type of difficulty I am talking about and what type of mechanics that used to really keep me on the edge of my seat in those days.

There are all fine as optional difficulty options. IOs and Incarnates imo saved the gave. without them the game would have died a long time ago. 

 

Overaggroing can still happen in low level teams. It sounds like you have more fun in low level teams than in lvl 40+ teams. I personally prefer teams wtih full level 50s and incarnate abilities.

Edited January 25, 2020 by golstat2003

[Parabola]

I'm one of those who have generally backed away from these conversations. I genuinely feel that there is an issue with the difficulty of the game at the high end but appreciate that opinion is divided on the matter. Unfortunately these discussions are tending to become less helpful the longer they go on as they move away from being a discussion of ideas and turn into points scoring arguments. My only hope is that there have been enough of them now for the devs to have taken notice even if ultimately nothing changes. (I would love to hear their opinions on the matter).

 

For what it's worth I will reiterate what I said in the other thread about where I have got to with this. I take the point that there is difficult content out there but that it is often ignored in favour of 'stuff that can be facerolled'. I feel two things need to happen:

 

1) Difficult content should be better incentivised somehow. More xp, better drops, whatever.

 

2) Easy content should be made a little more difficult. This could be as simple as tweaking some of the enemies that are currently cannon fodder such as council.

 

If something were to change it should be focused at the very high end where IO's and incarnates are in play. I also wouldn't want to impact the solo game if possible as it is the team dynamic that I feel has suffered as a result of power creep (and the homogenization of AT roles due to incarnates but that is a slightly separate issue). However if it were up to me I wouldn't make these changes optional, I feel there is a baseline balance issue here that needs addressing for the benefit of the whole.

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, parabola said:

I'm one of those who have generally backed away from these conversations. I genuinely feel that there is an issue with the difficulty of the game at the high end but appreciate that opinion is divided on the matter. Unfortunately these discussions are tending to become less helpful the longer they go on as they move away from being a discussion of ideas and turn into points scoring arguments. My only hope is that there have been enough of them now for the devs to have taken notice even if ultimately nothing changes. (I would love to hear their opinions on the matter).

 

For what it's worth I will reiterate what I said in the other thread about where I have got to with this. I take the point that there is difficult content out there but that it is often ignored in favour of 'stuff that can be facerolled'. I feel two things need to happen:

 

1) Difficult content should be better incentivised somehow. More xp, better drops, whatever.

 

2) Easy content should be made a little more difficult. This could be as simple as tweaking some of the enemies that are currently cannon fodder such as council.

 

If something were to change it should be focused at the very high end where IO's and incarnates are in play. I also wouldn't want to impact the solo game if possible as it is the team dynamic that I feel has suffered as a result of power creep (and the homogenization of AT roles due to incarnates but that is a slightly separate issue). However if it were up to me I wouldn't make these changes optional, I feel there is a baseline balance issue here that needs addressing for the benefit of the whole.

I see where you are coming from, but disagree. Many folks feel the game is difficult enough and don't come here for increased difficulty.

 

I would say any changes really should be optional if folks want to play that way.

 

EDIT: I'm fine with some mobs being push overs and folks choosing to play those missions over Carnies, Malta, Rularruu. It's fine that the game can be all things to all people.

Edited January 25, 2020 by golstat2003

[Lines]

6 hours ago, Solarverse said:

And please, stop telling us to go play another game...that just rubs salt in the wound when this game once WAS the other game that we went to...it was the players who wanted everything easy who ruined that game for us. Now that you have the game just the way you like it, we are asking you to give a little back. To please take a moment and come up with some ideas that allow us old school CoH players who preferred the game challenging to be able to get a piece of that back without it interfering with the game the way you prefer it.

 

I honestly don't think that's too much to ask for.

 

While I don't think it's appropriate to point fingers, even into an amorphous crowd, it's a significant point that CoH did once have a lot more challenge to it and that that challenge seems to have vanished. Nostalgia is a big driver for why we're playing and it's going to cause issues when the game doesn't mesh with our memories of it.

 

I do miss struggling through some parts of the game. However, I like the IO stuff (And it's only really on Homecoming that I got into it. Heck, it's only here I could even afford to get into it). Maybe it's off-balance, sure, but that level of customisation is wonderful. The incarnate character progression doesn't gel well with me, but that's more because I don't love the limited themes and funnelled storytelling, I think the interface and method for progression is clumsy and not very immersive and I've never been a big fan of cosmically powerful superheroes anyway - but at least it adds more potential for customisation. This stuff is in line with the concept of the game. I say that begrudgingly but it is true.

 

But like I said in the other thread, I do not believe we need to go backwards in order to create challenge. The game is a pretty open field for how it develops. Let's get inventive.

 

I also want to set in stone, as gospel truth in this discussion, that difficulty and challenge does not equate to grind. Grind is only slow. Nobody wants to be forced to do the same thing but slower. That isn't difficulty, just annoying. That said, I also don't think we particularly need to accelerate the game at this point, but that's just me.

 

An old challenge, for instance, was the hazardousness of hazard zones. They were challenging once because you could expect to take a few days or weeks to level past them, Perez and the Hollows took place before you had travel powers, you could get stuck. Nowadays we can outlevel them within a couple of hours and can fly over them without even noticing that they are there. Would it really work to slow down levelling and suppress travel in those zones? Absolutely not. So what could we do to make hazard zones feel hazardous in the new context of the game? How could we incentivise spending time in them in ways that helps players feel like their character is meaningfully progressing? Can hazard zones be given their own sense of story and identity through zone events - some sort of villain group pushback - that takes coordinated team efforts to respond to? Think like how the Halloween banners events needs some team structure to work. How, then, is that rewarded to be a sustainable event? These are the ideas really worth fleshing out and exploring, seeing what people like and don't like.

 

Dreaming big, the game could benefit from new tech that was never there before, like smarter AI. The need to respond to enemies who are responding to you opens up so many opportunities for challenge. The AI has always loved huddling into a nice, cosy AoE-magnet cluster. What if a few of them notice that AoEs are happening and spread out a bit? A tank could need to bring them back in, controllers and blasters could need to lock them down, you could even justify knocking them back into the pile.

 

The game could really do with a pass over how it rewards players, and not even for the sake of difficulty. I think most of the game does feel under rewarding as it is. The game doesn't seem to value its own arcs very much. EXP and Influence are peanuts nowadays. They're measly old carrots. I'd like it if a reward revamp takes difficulty into account, but honestly I'd take anything that makes every aspect of the game feel valuable, rather than a few examples of content.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Lines

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Just seen this. To be more specific, I am speaking of the mechanics of the game then in comparison to what it is today. IO's, Incarnates, difficulty slider, and so on. IMO, there should be a setting you can chose upon character creation that won't allow that character to have IO's or Incarnates and takes away the difficulty option and forces you to play the game with the old school difficulty settings. Probably not the best idea, but that gives you an idea of what I personally am after here in terms of mechanics. I would also (although I know this won't ever happen) like to see (under the same mechanics rules of no IOs or no Incarnates) like to see the aggro cap increased by double, to increase risk of over aggro and increase chance of team wipes without proper pulls.

 

And no, I don't want to herd, I just miss the "OH SHIT!" days when you accidentally pulled too many mobs and your team faced the battle of their life trying to stay alive. That was very fun to me. Granted, that will never happen, but I think it helps you understand what type of difficulty I am talking about and what type of mechanics that used to really keep me on the edge of my seat in those days.

There is a setting that doesnt allow you to pick IOs - it's called choice.  You can turn off XP after 50 and won't become incarnate.

 

As for having the battle of your lives?  That still happens even with incarnates.  Ever done the Magisterium?  Minds of mayhem?  Even dilemma diabolique?  Those have all gone sideways and become a fire drill for teams I've been on and led.

 

I'm not naive enough to think this solves your issues with the game, but it is the truth, and it is a potential solution.

 

As to getting other people to play that way, if nobody wants to that's really not their fault.  That's their choice.

[Grouchybeast]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

There is a setting that doesnt allow you to pick IOs - it's called choice.  You can turn off XP after 50 and won't become incarnate.

 

As for having the battle of your lives?  That still happens even with incarnates.  Ever done the Magisterium?  Minds of mayhem?  Even dilemma diabolique?  Those have all gone sideways and become a fire drill for teams I've been on and led.

 

I'm not naive enough to think this solves your issues with the game, but it is the truth, and it is a potential solution.

 

As to getting other people to play that way, if nobody wants to that's really not their fault.  That's their choice.

 

And now we don't even really have devs, per se -- we have fellow players who are putting up their own time, free, to maintain access to the game and develop it further.  There isn't one almighty dev team who control the only option to play the game.  There are already multiple servers offering different playing experiences, and at this point there's nothing to stop someone trying to round up a group of people to develop a 'hardcore' server if there is sufficient interest to do that.  Lift the aggro cap, remove IO drops, disable the difficulty system. Go wild!

 

The We Have Cake team aren't here asking that HC give them instant 50s and sacks full of Empyrean merits.  They're out there on their own server, enjoying their blackjack and Tier 4 incarnates.  Complaining in the forums is no longer the only option to get what you want.

[DR_Mechano]

36 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

And now we don't even really have devs, per se -- we have fellow players who are putting up their own time, free, to maintain access to the game and develop it further.  There isn't one almighty dev team who control the only option to play the game.  There are already multiple servers offering different playing experiences, and at this point there's nothing to stop someone trying to round up a group of people to develop a 'hardcore' server if there is sufficient interest to do that.  Lift the aggro cap, remove IO drops, disable the difficulty system. Go wild!

 

The We Have Cake team aren't here asking that HC give them instant 50s and sacks full of Empyrean merits.  They're out there on their own server, enjoying their blackjack and Tier 4 incarnates.  Complaining in the forums is no longer the only option to get what you want.

This is my point. There are server options available. The major Issue 24 servers do not have the easy incarnates that Homecoming has, you have to unlock them the old school way by running the iTrials, with the Hybrid slot only unlocked by running Magisterium. If people want things more difficult we're not saying "go play another MMO" we're saying "Go play the same MMO on a different server cluster". If people want things even easier there is, as both myself and now Grouchybeast have mentioned, the 'We Have Cake' team which will give you insta-50, insta-tier 4 incarnates and enough inf to completely IO out your build however you see fit.

 

If people are really hardcore about difficulty, the source code is out there and you simply could make your own server and call it it something like CoH: Tough Puppy or whatever. That is the one point I almost never see addressed in these complaints, if you're that dedicated to wanting a higher difficulty, make your own server, removing the option for IOs and limit yourself to purely SOs and HOs as the best you can get, it's not like HC have a tyrannical rule that states 'thou cannot make a new server and do it your way'. They want homecoming to be more difficult when there are server options out there that cater to them, as the rising popularity of We Have Cake has proven there is a call for having thing easier.

 

I almost never see or hear of these people complaining on the COXG, Rebirth, Thunderspy etc. discords it's always Homecoming that they come to and complain. So if even those servers aren't difficult enough for you, why aren't you complaining at them to make a change?

 

Also for people that say the same was challenging, I'll point you back to the time I made a crapload of inf on a level 49 character who was used as a bridging service for the Council map farms. They weren't uncommon either, you saw numerous people advertising council or freakshow farm maps for PLing purposes and would sell spots for influence. Those roses tinted glasses of yours seem to ignore the fact that PLing was always going on and it was always pretty numerous.

 

I have noticed a wave of these people (about 3 or 4 to be honest) all of a sudden, all cropping up at the same time, if I was a more cynical individual I would suspect conspiracy but A) I'm not that crazy and B) Well that's just the way people are I guess.

 

However. What everyone seems to agree on is increased notoriety options. Extended the mob levels up to +8 means those same mobs reward more inf and xp per mob death. There you go, there is your reward, you earning more inf and XP quicker.

Edited January 25, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[TheMuna]

On 1/23/2020 at 6:53 PM, Super Atom said:

idk what server you played on, but LRSF was hard for like week 1 until everything was figured out lol. CoH was never overly difficult, characters were dumb powerful pre-ED some argue even more so than now. One AT use to herd entire maps, thats hardly any different from now.

Yeah, I played in the very early issues pre-ED and everyone had perma-hasten and level 50 tanks were just straight up invincible. They were wiping maps afk and taking punches from AVs like kisses. This is also before AVs were "attuned". Regen scrappers were invincible. Controllers with pets were running around with whole mobs because they could amp recharge up to a ridiculous degree.  The gaps between ATs and powersets were also much more exaggerated.

[EmmySky]

6 minutes ago, TheMuna said:

Regen scrappers were invincible.

*sniff* you gonna make me cry...I still miss SpitfireFlash (MA/regen)....SpitfireSky (MA/WP) is adequate but really not nearly as powerful.  

 

There IS significant power creep in this game but what they did to the old regen scrapper has still not been undone.  I am not saying if it should or not, just that it takes a lot more effort to reach that level of invincibility now.

 

*sniff* pour one out for the regen scrappers

[Ruin Mage]

People need to remember a few things:

• Unpaid team thats doing this of their free time
• Their scope of what can and can't be done is very clear.
• This game is notorious for its spaghetti code ala the actual devs
• "muh power creep" its a superhero game from 2004. What did you think was going to happen?
• HC knows what type of server it wants to be, and it doesn't cater to the few who think "bwuh x is bad for the game!!!" (insert: ED, Incarnate system, etc)

 

We have seen nothing that should tell anyone that some of the stuff they're asking for is possible.

1. Mobs, outside of Incarnate stuff and Giant Monsters, are capped to reach level 54. Adding the Incarnate shifts to mobs is possible, I'd assume, but I'm no devbrain with access.
2. This dev team seems, currently, only possible of finishing whats in the files already, making badges, QOL changes, and just recently making new story arcs.
3. The game isn't exactly a modern MMO with huge levels of flexibility, especially when its not supported by people who do game-making as a living.
4. There are other games and servers that cater to your needs properly (Imsorryihadto)

[siolfir]

Honestly, if you want an optional extra difficulty setting, allow an option to enable PvP diminishing returns on your character in PvE content.

 

Note the final resistance number with a +1000% resistance buff (the screenshot was taken from the last beta stress test, when PvP was enabled in the Abyss after the hami raids):

 

I was softcapped on defense, but that's because there was also a +4000% defense buff in place (the same one that was providing me the resistance in fact). I think that letting people do this to themselves would give them the challenge they want because it would be a personal way to nerf their IO builds in a way that's easy to turn on and off.

 

Then everyone else can play in peace at the same difficulty and the people who want to faceplant more will get to do so.

[Solarverse]

@Lines and @everyone else...

 

Let's be honest, it's all a pipe dream anyway. This whole thread really only servers as a way to vent. What players like us needs is a Server that has mechanics based around Vanilla, with maybe an aggro cap in place that won't allow somebody to pull any more than just a full room rather than a full map. I would start the server myself if I had the team and time and cash for it. Maybe after my girls grow up and leave the house will I have time.

 

I would like to leave it off with this note: We do appreciate the Devs and what they have done here. It would be hard to walk away from some of the unique things they have brought to this game, most notably their costume pieces that will only be unique to them and the great changes they have made to MM's, Tanks and even more so the customizable Phantom Army.

 

These Devs are kick ass and just because I would personally prefer a Vanilla server, does not mean I would not miss what this Dev team brings to the game. In fact, FOR ME PERSONALLY, if I could take what this Dev team has brought to the game and add it to a server with Vanilla mechanics, we would have the absolute PERFECT game.

 

So none of this is a stab at the current Devs....these Devs are kick ass and are very much appreciated. And at the end of the day, after the dust settles from the forum wars, we are just glad the game is back. 

[Troo]

On 1/23/2020 at 1:57 PM, SmokinIndo said:

I'm sure there are lots of people that play this game for the power fantasy. That's fine. They have the option to solo everything at -1 with bosses as lieutenants and AVs as EBs. For the rest of us, I don't think I'm alone when I say that with set bonuses and incarnates, this game is easy AF.... and it's boring. The game is losing population, and I think it has to do with the fact that there's no challenge left.

between the title and this first paragraph..

I'll say it if no one else did - Maybe, just maybe this game isn't for you. If you need a suggestion? Try Anthem. Yes, you'll like that one.

 

Oh, you don't wanna go? I'm not telling you to go, just suggesting some self reflection.

Oh, you actually love the game but want more challenge and content? I see.  Were you offering to volunteer and help? (because I didn't read your whole post and maybe..)  No?  Oh okay.

 

I'd first suggest: Try playing a character without the P2W vendor or AE building and enjoy the 100s of hours of pretty good content.

Need a second suggestion: Go make your own game. Heck, you can even have the code for this one and make all the changes you want.

Don't let the door hit you in the backside. You'll be back.

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Troo

[Troo]

On 1/23/2020 at 4:11 PM, Illy said:

Fact: difficulty is, has always been, and will always be, a legitimate object of criticism in the gaming industry. 

What if I made a game that was supposed to be too easy? Would I then find you at my door step complaining that it is too hard?  note: The only fact in your fact, is the fact that you've used the word fact incorrectly.

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, EmmySky said:

*sniff* you gonna make me cry...I still miss SpitfireFlash (MA/regen)....SpitfireSky (MA/WP) is adequate but really not nearly as powerful.  

 

There IS significant power creep in this game but what they did to the old regen scrapper has still not been undone.  I am not saying if it should or not, just that it takes a lot more effort to reach that level of invincibility now.

 

*sniff* pour one out for the regen scrappers

Nerf regen. 

[Illy]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

What if I made a game that was supposed to be too easy? Would I then find you at my door step complaining that it is too hard?  note: The only fact in your fact, is the fact that you've used the word fact incorrectly.

No, I used the word correctly. 

 

If you made a game too easy, would you find me at your doorstep complaining that its too hard? No....? A game that is easy is.... *shocker* too easy....Maybe reword that because I don't think its articulating whatever point it is that you're trying to make. 

[Troo]

@Illy Definition of Fact, a: something that has actual existence; b: an actual occurrence

 

You used the word fact and pointed it to an opinion. I can only guess as a means to inflate that opinion.

 

I'll toss you another opinion: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/19878507.pdf

 

 

Just some Princeton or MIT fellow who had some opinions as well. Some interesting works cited in the bibliography if anyone is interested.

[Illy]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

@Illy Definition of Fact, a: something that has actual existence; b: an actual occurrence

 

You used the word fact and pointed it to an opinion. I can only guess as a means to inflate that opinion.

 

I'll toss you another opinion: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/19878507.pdf

 

 

Just some Princeton or MIT fellow who had some opinions as well. Some interesting works cited in the bibliography if anyone is interested.

Thanks for proving that I used it correctly again.

[SwitchFade]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Nerf regen. 

Always nerf Regen. Make it into DEgen.

[Bartacus]

I haven't read this whole thread, only a couple pages. But I agree with the OP actually.... I miss the days of feeling like city of heroes was a challenge. Unforunately I think incarnates and IOs/set bonuses killed this. I know that people are saying to just 'play with SOs' then... and maybe that's worth a spin if I got a group together to do that. But, I think for the long term health of the game, there either has to be more challenging content or some stuff has to be nerfed. I know the community would outrage if stuff was nerfed, and so that's not an option.

And, I agree, some ATs feel completely obsolete. Controllers especially in a team that's actually IO'd feel useless. Why do things need to be held if they're dead? Why do things need to be held if they're alive but the whole team is soft-capped to defense? Controllers actually used to be (arguably) the strongest class. Now, they've been powercreeped out of usefulness. Can you play a controller and still enjoy it? Sure. You can. But it feels silly playing my controller on teams that are actually competent because the only things that actually matter in 99.9% of the content in this game is damage and survivability. Not debuffs, not control, not buffs. Hell, buffing defenders are hardly ever seen because of this. Force Field? Sonic Defenders? why would you pick that when everyone's running around with soft capped defense and close to capped S/L resistance? 

I don't know. I get why people are upset by this thread because you're having fun with the game still. I'm glad that you are. And I know that there are others that are still just as captivated with City of Heroes at its current state as they ever have been. 

But for a lot of people, including myself, I worry that there's going to come a day when I get bored of steamrolling through 4x8 missions with ease.