How tough do you need to be?

[Accarian]

I want to build a tank, and I really have alot of concepts in the back of my mind, but looking at all these builds I get terrified of making a gimped build.

All these builds are so crazy cool and complete every time just a bit more resistance or defense, but do we really need to min/max to such a degree to be able to tank all the content?

I know every tanker set has some kind of hole, something it is really hard to overcome by itself, but should I be worried that I haven't min/maxed enough in order to tank a ITF?

 

For example I have a simple SR/MA tank build that I really like playing, but offcourse my resist isn't that high, defense is more then enough, but will I be able to tank most things in the game with just taking some orange candy from time to time? or should I abandon my little warrior and make one of those crazy inv or SD builds I keep seeing here?

[Call Me Awesome]

You need to be tough enough to withstand the aggro of an 8 man spawn at +4, or to withstand a +4 AV.  I'd say that's the minimum requirement for tanking in the late game and with a good build most tanker primaries are capable of that.

 

Defense is quite effective, and as SR you have massive resistance to debuffs.  You'll expect to eat about 5-8% of the incoming damage at the defense soft cap; that's where layered defense/resistance/regeneration/healing comes into play.  Unfortunately SR doesn't really give you much once damage gets past your defenses.  I'd build for resistance, if you have the cash you should be able to layer on 30-50% resistance to back you up which will make a major difference in your durability.

 

I don't know if the changes to Tankers affected the aggro aura of WP and SR or not, they used to be the red headed stepchildren with almost nonexistent aggro auras.  That's what kept me from rolling those two sets before.

[Snarky]

I ran Invulnerability Brutes back on live when Redside had no Tanks. I was new and loved low levels. And was broke for a year or so with no understanding of i/o or the market.  Soooo i ran these suckers on SOs.  They tanked great!

 

so.  You have a ‘real tank’ in a world where a few locations badges and a couple hours task forces will get you a few formally impossible to get i/o and a few more task forces will kit out a low budget build on top of that

 

what i am saying is JUMP IN you cannot mess this up.  If you buy and slot the wrong things respecs and unslotters are pretty easy to come by and a few more task forces will fund a rebuild with even more toys. And ANY set bonuses are better than what i used to Tank with. Granted Invulnerability is a great set right out of the box. Other sets benefit madly from i/o.  Chase s/l defenses on defense sets and mixed def res sets like invul and willpower. Chase resist on res sets (def is considered a false hope on these sets).

 

More importantly take Taunt. Remember a quote from the old forums “Tankers. First to fight. First to fall. Never fall”. In the modern game where peeps will drop +4/x8 on you without any consideration of whether that is good or not this can be harder to live up to. Still it is by far the most important goal a tank can strive for. Anytime someone on my team starts getting pounded i take it personal. What can i do to change it. Sometimes you cannot. They made a really bad choice or were following a team racing past 100 mobs and they didnt have soeed or stealth (saw that last night on a market tf sigh). But it is important to care about it and try to help. 
 

oh. And have fun

Edited February 3, 2020 by Snarky

[SinergyX]

As tanker you take one baseline: there always be something that will hurt you big time.

 

Some enemy groups are just so mixed, it only takes 2 types to hurt pretty bad. IO's can fill gaps very decent (ok, maybe Ice not), tanking is not only about being beefed up for the fight, but also know your enemy. Sappers in the old days were deadly to anyone with no -end-resist, -def is still deadly with sets that have no -def protection, even Granites can face groups that just take you down.

 

Specialy on SR you playing the russian roulette game, even the floor of 5% something can hit and if you unlucky, its a stupid hard hitting. You can always pick the basics, tough/weave, some resistance IO's and sets, adding that extra cushion when stuff does hit you. Dont forget that in the early days, Ice was a very large used tank and is also mainly def based. 

 

Read a bit about numbers, what are the caps on defense, resist, how its works, fill in the few gaps you have on a SR set (mainly resistance), for example i took rune of protection from the mystic pool (resist clicky, gives like 25% all resist), went for the dark epic pool for darkest night (-acc -dmg toggle, wich i believe does -15% acc and -21% dmg), put it on a high target and stuff around it will be affected. Though i havent played SR recently alot, i asume the new 50% radius/range buff also applies to darkest night, making it even stronger. 

 

But whatever happens in a team, remember you are not alone. You are in a party, people all should contribute defeating stuff and keeping eachother alive. If you lucky and get a thermal and sonic in the team (both can do resist buffs), you be a laughing tank with crapload positional defense and a huge pile of resist to back it up. 

[Caulderone]

2 hours ago, Accarian said:

For example I have a simple SR/MA tank build that I really like playing, but offcourse my resist isn't that high.

Check out this post/guide for great info on SR/MA:

 

 

Redlynne's build uses Aid Self, and my build posted at the end goes for high Resists.

[Zylli]

Super Reflexes is not a great tanking set at end-game, but it can be easy to level.  If you really want to make it work, you can.  It will survive at end-game, but you may need outside heals due to the lack of healing, and generally low resistances the set has built in.

 

Don't go for defense just because of the 5% hit chance enemies have against you.  It is a bit misleading for two reasons.  First, the base to-hit for mobs is 50%, so defense drops that down to 5%, meaning you are avoiding 90% of attacks, not 95%.  Second, anything above a minion has an accuracy bonus of 15% to 50% (depending LT to AV) which applies after defense.  When (not if) you get hit, your lack of resistance means you will lose a large amount of health.  As a Tanker holding the attention of 16 mobs at a time, each swinging at you every 2-5 seconds, you will get hit often even with softcapped defense.

 

Tankers and Brutes are the only ATs with 90% resistance cap.  Being at the cap, with defense layered on top makes them very very durable.  Defense buffs are extremely common on teams, while resistance buffs are rarely available.  My advice is to go for a resistance-based Tanker and layer defense on top if you want a very survivable build.  If you want a SR character, defense works better on any of the DPS ATs who are limited to 75% resistance instead.

 

If you are dedicated to a certain theme, go for SR and ignore the naysayers (including me).  The invention system can make up for SR's weaknesses, at least somewhat.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Zylli

[MunkiLord]

3 hours ago, Accarian said:

I want to build a tank, and I really have alot of concepts in the back of my mind, but looking at all these builds I get terrified of making a gimped build.

All these builds are so crazy cool and complete every time just a bit more resistance or defense, but do we really need to min/max to such a degree to be able to tank all the content?

I know every tanker set has some kind of hole, something it is really hard to overcome by itself, but should I be worried that I haven't min/maxed enough in order to tank a ITF?

 

For example I have a simple SR/MA tank build that I really like playing, but offcourse my resist isn't that high, defense is more then enough, but will I be able to tank most things in the game with just taking some orange candy from time to time? or should I abandon my little warrior and make one of those crazy inv or SD builds I keep seeing here?

You'll be able to handle the majority of content. An SR Scrapper can, so a Tanker will do it even better. Your high end likely won't top out as high as some other primaries, but you'll be fine with a good build and popping inspirations when needed. 

 

And with SR, the ITF is one of the places you can really shine. That awesome DDR is no joke. Also Silver Mantis's Kryptonite is a build with good DDR.

41 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

Check out this post/guide for great info on SR/MA:

 

 

Redlynne's build uses Aid Self, and my build posted at the end goes for high Resists.

This is good advice here.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

Other sets benefit madly from i/o.  Chase s/l defenses on defense sets and mixed def res sets like invul and willpower. Chase resist on res sets (def is considered a false hope on these sets).

Going to disagree.

On Vectored (Melee, Ranged, AoE) Defense sets, chase vectored Defense until you hit the low 50's.
Then fill in with Resist and Regen where you can.

On Typed (S/L, E/N, F/C, etc) Defense sets, chase Typed Defense until you hit the low 50's.
Then fill in with Resist and Regen where you can.

On Resist sets.  Work on maxing or near-maxing as many Resists as you can.
If you get a chance to slather a bit of Defense over the top and some Regen underneath, do it.
Just don't depend on Defense in lieu of your higher Resists.

Most regen...build your Resists as high as you can...

Most mixed-armor are essentially Vectored or Typed Defense.

[Snarky]

Well since you are right i will let it slide 😁

[Troo]

 

9 hours ago, Accarian said:

I get terrified of making a gimped build

Don't be scared of this. If you died all the time you wouldn't be playing it. 

 

9 hours ago, Accarian said:

I have a simple SR/MA tank build that I really like playing

"that I really like playing" = the biggest factor in success.

 

There is some great help in this thread already that'll point you in the right direction. Enjoy the journey.

 

(my main character is locked at level 33 and earns enough to fund all my level 50 characters)

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Troo

[Accarian]

Thanks to everybody for the great advice and peace of mind 🙂

13 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

I don't know if the changes to Tankers affected the aggro aura of WP and SR or not, they used to be the red headed stepchildren with almost nonexistent aggro auras.  That's what kept me from rolling those two sets before.

According to mids evasion has a mag 4 - 13.6s taunt aura, only 3.4 seconds less then invincibility from the inv set, so I think that they fixed it for SR, WP still only has a  mag 3 taunt aura

[Caulderone]

3 hours ago, Accarian said:

Thanks to everybody for the great advice and peace of mind 🙂

According to mids evasion has a mag 4 - 13.6s taunt aura, only 3.4 seconds less then invincibility from the inv set, so I think that they fixed it for SR, WP still only has a  mag 3 taunt aura

Willpower's taunt was fixed in the recent Tanker update.

[Accarian]

1 hour ago, Caulderone said:

Willpower's taunt was fixed in the recent Tanker update.

Is there somewhere I can read up on those tanker updates? I have already looked at the patch notes for january 23rd but couldn't find anything about the willpower taunt change and I know I have read it somewhere else as well

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Caulderone said:

Willpower's taunt was fixed in the recent Tanker update.

After 15 years!  What?!?  They said it wasnt possible?!?  What has science done 🤪

[Zylli]

15 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

On Vectored (Melee, Ranged, AoE) Defense sets, chase vectored Defense until you hit the low 50's.
Then fill in with Resist and Regen where you can.

On Typed (S/L, E/N, F/C, etc) Defense sets, chase Typed Defense until you hit the low 50's.
Then fill in with Resist and Regen where you can.

That might be a bit much, depending on how much defense debuff resistance you have.  With SR, a typical 7.5% defense debuff will be reduced to 0.375% defense debuffed.  A buffer of 2% is plenty to ignore 5 debuffs.  With Shield Defense's 66% DDR (single-stacked Active Defense), a 7.5% defense debuff is reduced to 2.5%, so a 5% buffer is useful.

 

Also consider defense debuffs aren't incredibly common unless you're fighting certain enemy types.  The extra defense is wasted on most enemies.  If you're fighting with a team, they are likely to bring a Maneuvers or two, adding to your buffer.  Inspirations can be your backup plan if all else fails.

 

Build for a defense buffer if you want, but I don't consider it necessary to have.

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, Zylli said:

Build for a defense buffer if you want, but I don't consider it necessary to have.

The buffer is also used for enemy +to-hit buffs and/or incarnate (where enemy +to-hit is 63.75% as opposed to the typical 50%).

[Caulderone]

1 hour ago, Accarian said:

Is there somewhere I can read up on those tanker updates? I have already looked at the patch notes for january 23rd but couldn't find anything about the willpower taunt change and I know I have read it somewhere else as well

Here is the Beta patch notes on it from back in December:

 

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

Armor-set specific changes never made it live. Instead, the proc (that should be working but isn’t right now) will instead provide full duration taunt auras for everyone, so long you are a tank or brute.

[Doomguide2005]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

The buffer is also used for enemy +to-hit buffs and/or incarnate (where enemy +to-hit is 63.75% as opposed to the typical 50%).

The "extra" defense while nice isn't something I would chase hard unless my primary goal was to reach the incarnate cap.  Other To Hit buffs are probably better dealt with by being aware of which foes use them, how large their buff and use of inspires in conjunction with teammate buffs.  Build towards max health and +regen combined with resists.  Even if you are built to the I-cap a buffer would be needed for debuffs and foe to hit.  It's a never ending race.

[Bopper]

23 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

The "extra" defense while nice isn't something I would chase hard unless my primary goal was to reach the incarnate cap.  Other To Hit buffs are probably better dealt with by being aware of which foes use them, how large their buff and use of inspires in conjunction with teammate buffs.  Build towards max health and +regen combined with resists.  Even if you are built to the I-cap a buffer would be needed for debuffs and foe to hit.  It's a never ending race.

I'm not in disagreement with your reasons. When you hit a nice spot, no need to chase for more. Just with SR, there's not really that much investment to reach low 50s. Assuming you take all of your defenses, a weave, and the 2 IOs that give +3% defense, you'll hit 52.4% defense with just 2 lvl 50 defensive IOs in each defensive power. That number drops to 49.4% if you use SOs instead of IOs

[Hyperstrike]

17 hours ago, Zylli said:

That might be a bit much

I've moved to "More Is Better" with the release of regular Incarnate Content.

Because getting your butt kicked by the "You exit the graveyard to hordes of Incarnate-Level +4x8 Banished Pantheon" in 30 seconds SUCKS!

[Sailboat]

On 2/4/2020 at 1:13 AM, Troo said:

"that I really like playing" = the biggest factor in success.

Second this.  Tanking can be an acquired taste-- you have look out for your squishies, take the initiative to start engagements, and set the pace, and you don't necessarily get as flashy powers as some other ATs. 

 

Love for your particular character can offset a lot of that.  Name, concept, bio, costume, role play...if you're enjoying the experience,  you're more likely to do a good job (as well as making your game time happy time)!

[Sura]

19 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Armor-set specific changes never made it live. Instead, the proc (that should be working but isn’t right now) will instead provide full duration taunt auras for everyone, so long you are a tank or brute.

Captain, with the auras changing to "anything that takes an endurance reduction enhancement will Gauntlet each time it hits", does that have an effect on pulse rates?  For example, Ice used to be really good at holding aggro because Chilling Embrace pulsed twice per second.  Is that still the case after the patch or have taunt aura statistics been standardized?  Does it make a difference if an aura is autohit (Chilling Embrace) or not (Icicles)?

 

Thank you so much for your patience and work on all the changes!

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

No.

There is no change in pulse rate.

An Auto Hit aura will auto-hit taunt, an aura that has a tohit check will still need the ToHit check.

Minor note on that, though: Taunting AVs (and any "RaidTarget") has never been AutoHit, even on AutoHit powers. All these Inherent Taunt attributes have always had an extra ToHit roll check against AVs that have a -20% penalty.

 

[Linea]

Do you really need to be this tough: No, not at all.  It really depends on the team.

I'll second what Hyperstrike said about how to build. I'll add that for heal-tank armors a defensive weapon like Katana can really help.

 

 

For a Tank I recommend:    

Other armors as well, but these are my top picks in each armor type.

• Defense Armor: */EnA (brute only armor), Inv/Rad, SD/Rad;   ( for a cheap SO only build, I'd probably recommend the Inv/Rad or Kat/Ena )
• Resist Armor: Rad/Kat;   
• Heal-Tank Armor:  Bio/Kat;   ( My "Main Incarnate Tank" is a Kat/Bio Scrapper 😜 )

 

 

My standards are as follows:

Note the following are SLE heavy tests, you also need to evaluate your other types of defenses and resists.   SL > EN > FC > TP, where TP can be half that of SL. 

• Base Level:  Solo +4x8 Council.  If as a tank you can't do this, I would say you need to work on your build or the Incarnate content will shred you like tissue paper.
• Squishies:  Survive a Fire Farm or SL Farm Patrol Cave Intersection on +4x8 for 10+ minutes ... at a very minimum set for no-bosses, but preferably set with-bosses. 
• Melees:  Survive 10 minutes with 6 Bosses and all the rest of 3 spawns of +4x8 Cimmies aggroed while using no offensive powers.  You have to make sure to keep the bosses aggroed, the riff raff just fill in the rest of the gaps.  This shows you can survive -defense debuffs (the 6 bosses), and that you can handle any crash or transition in clicky armors.
• Tanks:  Solo +4x8 AE Arc "801.1"

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Linea