Focused Feedback: Dark Melee Update (Build 2)

[ScarySai]

@Galaxy Brain

 

Kinda pointless now, but how did that Shadow Maul test pan out?

[Galaxy Brain]

55 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

@Galaxy Brain

 

Kinda pointless now, but how did that Shadow Maul test pan out?

Eh, didn't get the chance to try it.

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

I hear you. Just keep in mind that's it not just a PBAoE attack; it doubles as a utility power to refill your endurance so it's also different from other mini-nukes in that regard. Now that the ceiling has been limited though, returning the ability to crit might be all that's needed. 

 

In general, I'm just cautioning against emotional responses to the changes and trying to advocate for some data. We also still have buffs to shadow maul, so the sum of all parts should be considered. 

I agree.

 

As for the Shadow Maul change, most that were rooting for the changes don't like or want Shadow Maul.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Arkterusss said:

I never understood the concept of a "Jump into as many people as possible to leverage these two powers, but your aoe options are garbage" 😎

I think that's kinda the point.  You get the most powerful self damage boosting power at the price of NOT being able to chain AoE everything down.

[ScarySai]

13 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

As for the Shadow Maul change, most that were rooting for the changes don't like or want Shadow Maul.

...What?

[Wavicle]

10 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Notice I DIDN'T say to buff it. I only called for a 90s recharge to line it up with DE. Obviously it would be fine to flag its buff as not stackable like group invis is, and lower its damage bonus outside of that first target to compensate.

 

It's stupid it isn't already on the same schedule given the rework anyway since you're going to use them together at either rate.

 

Also per someone earlier it should be re-flipped for the damage bonus on DE. It should do more damage when your end is full, and less when its low, favoring using it for the endurance at that point. This nullifies the benefit of fixing end issues on a build.

If this was really the goal it should be turned into Build Up.  So let's not.

[WindDemon21]

34 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

If this was really the goal it should be turned into Build Up.  So let's not.

Except it works completely different from build up. All I'm talking about is timing. I'm fine with it staying as is if they make DE 60 seconds instead of 90 which if you read above honestly makes more sense anyway.

[csr]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Agreed that the sample size is lower than ideal, but I'm also one guy 😉

 

A bigger sample size would be ideal + from more people. I've posted the SO build in the prior thread, and the OG thread goes over the rules as well for anyone who wants to try too! 

 

I could also just do like 25~ runs or so to get as much variance as possible...

 

 

As for IOs, that is also something we can try as a point of comparison though that is funky due to what could be slotted per primary set for similar performance., but it would be definitely worth trying.

 

Indeed, I thought about doing some runs myself.  But I think 4 or 5 would be my limit.  The number you've done is beyond me.

 

The next time I log to test DM I'll try to sneak in a practice run at the least, though I think it needs more like 3 practice runs minimum before the times would be really meaningful to compare.

[Captain Powerhouse]

So a bit on the whole thought process behind the direction of these changes:

 

Dark Melee has a lot of utility and some extremely powerful +Dmg in Soul Drain, combining into some of the best ST damage in the game (without being broken.)

 

The set performs way too poorly on AoE, though. There are only two powers that can viably be buffed to add the set some AoE: shadow maul and consume. Consume is a high recharge near-infinite source of endurance. Due to its great +endurance utility, lowering its recharge to something like 20s or less, making it a more traditional AoE, becomes a non-starter. Removing the +end utility is also out of the question.
 

So, Shadow Maul aside, the goal was to keep Dark Consumption somewhat high recharge and give it high damage. So the goal wasn’t to give DM a mini-nuke as much as being cornered into that being the only option without straight out adding a 10th power or breaking the cottage rule.

 

My initial testing (done on Tanker Build) was promising. But once it was realized how it performed on Scrappers and high-fury brutes, it was obvious the damage was too high. The problem is not even all the damage delivered over a full mission, but how the use of the power alone could clear minions too easily even on an SO build, eliminating way too quickly sources of damage and generating unintended safety.
 

I am not happy with the current state either, though, it’s much weaker than I was expecting as I miss judged the impact of the endurance scaling portion not being affected by slotted enhancements.

 

Given the goal is to add more damage over the course of a mission without introducing too many quick clears, and without reducing the recharge of the power, I have decided to simply change the damage delivery method for the next iteration, in addition to once more adjust the damage expression.

 

I have not finalized work on this, but the next iteration will deliver the bulk of the damage in DoT form. That will help maintain high damage per click of Dark Equilibrium/Consumption while helping avoiding the inherent safety of a single power removing too many hostile units.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[macskull]

51 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I have not finalized work on this, but the next iteration will deliver the bulk of the damage in DoT form. That will help maintain high damage per click of Dark Equilibrium/Consumption while helping avoiding the inherent safety of a single power removing too many hostile units.

That may be an improvement but generally speaking DoT powers are less useful than their numbers might show, especially on teams. It's nice if you can land Dark Equilibrium but if the mobs are dead before half the damage has landed then it's only doing half the damage is should be. Again, if the intention is that the power rival other mini-nukes, the damage should be consistent and delivered up front. If there's some DoT in there, great, but that shouldn't be where the majority of the damage is coming from.

 

It seems like you're balancing this around edge cases of Scrappers near damage cap, or Brutes with tons of Fury and outside buffs and... I don't think that's a super-common scenario to be balancing around. Yes, the original version of this changed power could do lots of damage but that was only under very specific and uncommon circumstances.

 

And if it can clear minions on an SO build... so what? On an SO build you're looking at 45 second recharge outside of Hasten/other buffs and even then you're probably giving up acc or damage slotting to get there. It is still far worse than other 45-second PBAoEs even on SOs.

 

EDIT: I feel like when you start messing with the power that much you're removing it too much from its original form to the point where it's not even the same power anymore aside from the fact that it's doing +end (and only sometimes).

Edited March 1, 2020 by macskull
edits because edits

[Captain Powerhouse]

Everything I tested today was using SOs. I don’t considere it a “so what” scenario.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[macskull]

3 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Everything I tested today was using SOs.

There's a balance between teaming and soloing and the same powers won't perform the same way in both environments. DoT powers are fine when solo or on small teams because odds are good you'll get most of the damage out of them, but on larger teams most things just die before most of the DoT can take effect because of all the AoE flying around. I appreciate the attempts to bring up DM's AoE, but I don't think this is the right way to do it. If you keep the damage calculations mostly the same way they are now and increase the radius or target cap, you'll have a more useful power that contributes more meaningfully to AoE output.

 

EDIT: Also while I have your attention (I assume) please please please please fix Phase Shift suppressing while mezzed in PvP. It's incredibly frustrating to the point where people are changing builds around to take Hibernate because of a bugged power.

Edited March 1, 2020 by macskull
halp

[Captain Powerhouse]

13 minutes ago, macskull said:

DoT powers are fine when solo or on small teams

Exactly!

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Given the goal is to add more damage over the course of a mission without introducing too many quick clears, and without reducing the recharge of the power, I have decided to simply change the damage delivery method for the next iteration, in addition to once more adjust the damage expression.

The better solution is still to change it's recharge to 60s for the reasons I've listed above. For one given its damage or end nature, it makes sense, and is unique on it's own with that recharge in the scrapper category as no other melee attack has that recharge/use. It would let every other one line up with soul drain which is the big issue here, and be more useful for the end/-to hit factors. Seriously, try it at 60s recharge, lowering the damage by about 10%. You'll find the value of it is much more useful both as a big aoe attack, yet not as big as a nukes power, with the utility for the end as well. It puts it at a perfect medium.

 

Edit* also lower the end gain to 10 per target, with 20 on the first target to compensate. (there is no need for scaling end return, as if you're already high up on end you won't need more anyway and vice versa, not sure if i saw that in the notes or not that it gives "more end back when your end is low", cause that would be true anyway since you can't go beyond 100% end regardless)

 

Sine the entire idea of this is to lower the recharge from what it was, fiddling with the recharge once more should not be out of the cards if it gives that perfect balance of the power/dm/utility that DM needs.

Edited March 1, 2020 by WindDemon21

[macskull]

20 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Exactly!

Well... okay. But given the choice between a power that's more useful solo or on teams, or a power that's useful in any situation (because its damage is delievered up front, or at least mostly upfront) the upfront damage is the clear winner.

 

EDIT: Dark Melee already has Shadow Maul as a DoT and having a set deliver most of its AoE output as DoT is a great way to run into the "punching dead things" problem on teams.

Edited March 1, 2020 by macskull
edit because edit because why not because edit?

[Myrmidon]

15 minutes ago, macskull said:

Well... okay. But given the choice between a power that's more useful solo or on teams, or a power that's useful in any situation (because its damage is delievered up front, or at least mostly upfront) the upfront damage is the clear winner.

This is true, however, I completely see where the Captain is coming from. Full teams will be blasting AoE which, while dampening the (soon to be added) DoT on DE really won’t matter much. When solo or on smaller teams, DE will be very useful AoE. On larger teams, Dark Melee’s single-target attacks can be used more to concentrate on hard targets while teammates clear chaff. That sounds like the epitome of utility to me.

 

 

 

 

 

That said, DE does need either the damage or the radius to come up just a tad. Maybe somewhere close to just below Warmace on @Galaxy Brain’s excel sheet would be the perfect spot. 😁

[WindDemon21]

8 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

That said, DE does need either the damage or the radius to come up just a tad. Maybe somewhere close to just below Warmace on @Galaxy Brain’s excel sheet would be the perfect spot. 😁

*cough* 60s rech, 10ft radius *cough* *cough*

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Well... okay. But given the choice between a power that's more useful solo or on teams, or a power that's useful in any situation (because its damage is delievered up front, or at least mostly upfront) the upfront damage is the clear winner.

 

EDIT: Dark Melee already has Shadow Maul as a DoT and having a set deliver most of its AoE output as DoT is a great way to run into the "punching dead things" problem on teams.

Very true, but I do have to admit it has always felt thematically appropriate for dark sets to me to be more DoT heavy, as in dark netherworld energy slowing draining the life from your enemies sort of thing.   DoT's can then be more powerful to account for them being slower, which I always kind of liked. 

 

It is a tougher tradeoff in today's game of mega nuking than it used to be in the game of old though, no argument there.  I find that a bit of shame, but that's a whole different discussion.  

 

Looking forward to seeing what Powerhouse comes up with.  Have to say I'm excited to see my favorite melee set finally getting some love. 

 

While he's at it, maybe he can tone down the sound fx for Soul Drain?  Just me or is it super loud compared to all the other sounds in the set?  Maybe because the sound multiplies per target hit?  To be clear, long time issue for me there, not anything new.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Riverdusk

[Gorgar]

Is the intent that DE will do as much damage on a scrapper as DC does if it crits?  Currently I have it slotted for damage and use it to hasten the demise of the weak stuff in the group: soul drain -> siphon life and/or dark regen, once everything has gathered around me, dark consumption, which usually finishes a bunch of stuff off, at least if I'm not running at significant +level. 

 

I know it's not a ton of damage, but it would be a weird nerf to a niche style.  Just wondering if that's the intent, as that might push that scrapper over the edge into rerolling as a brute.  I've copied the character to beta, but if you're about to change it again there's probably not a lot of point in comparing now.

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Well... okay. But given the choice between a power that's more useful solo or on teams, or a power that's useful in any situation (because its damage is delievered up front, or at least mostly upfront) the upfront damage is the clear winner.

Eh...I'm not so sure. It sounds like damage over time as a concept is fine, personally. If the issue is "things are defeated too quickly for damage over time to do much", then it sounds like the issue is the fact that things are being defeated too quickly, not the other way around.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Eh...I'm not so sure. It sounds like damage over time as a concept is fine, personally. If the issue is "things are defeated too quickly for damage over time to do much", then it sounds like the issue is the fact that things are being defeated too quickly, not the other way around.

I agree, I don't mind some of the damage being DoT, it's more annoying when that's on a single target than on an aoe. What bugs me is if they don't make it a 60s recharge to line up with soul drain every other DE, and give the -to hit more chance to be utilized and increase the radius to at least 10ft.

[Doc_Scorpion]

27 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

If the issue is "things are defeated too quickly for damage over time to do much", then it sounds like the issue is the fact that things are being defeated too quickly, not the other way around.

Quoted for truth.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

That may be an improvement but generally speaking DoT powers are less useful than their numbers might show, especially on teams. It's nice if you can land Dark Equilibrium but if the mobs are dead before half the damage has landed then it's only doing half the damage is should be. Again, if the intention is that the power rival other mini-nukes, the damage should be consistent and delivered up front. If there's some DoT in there, great, but that shouldn't be where the majority of the damage is coming from.

 

It seems like you're balancing this around edge cases of Scrappers near damage cap, or Brutes with tons of Fury and outside buffs and... I don't think that's a super-common scenario to be balancing around. Yes, the original version of this changed power could do lots of damage but that was only under very specific and uncommon circumstances.

 

And if it can clear minions on an SO build... so what? On an SO build you're looking at 45 second recharge outside of Hasten/other buffs and even then you're probably giving up acc or damage slotting to get there. It is still far worse than other 45-second PBAoEs even on SOs.

 

EDIT: I feel like when you start messing with the power that much you're removing it too much from its original form to the point where it's not even the same power anymore aside from the fact that it's doing +end (and only sometimes).

Does it matter though? If the mobs are being killed within the 5 (?) seconds it takes for the DoT to run its course aren't they dead anyway? Be it from DC or from whatever other nuke landed on them.

 

That said I don't like DoTs either. We don't do the game against few but tough enemies a la WoW dungeon trash. So after leveling characters who had DoT effects it was super common to just apply the DoT, and then continue the rotation on the same mob making the animation and endurance used on the DoT skill a waste. Otherwise it is 'lets play a game and try to guess that the mob will die and not instead survive with a splinter of HP making me have to go chase it down'.

 

DoTs in this game need to be ultra short. We are talking 2.5 seconds and it's probably too much already.

[Arkterusss]

I like DoTS...if they end up turbo ticking like Frost Breath or Frozen Touch. 😄

[Sarcazmo]

Pardon me if this has been addressed already but I was wondering if the Dark Consumption of Blasters' secondary is included in this overhaul? All I see is Tank, Brute and Scrapper being mentioned.

With Touch of the Beyond there is really no need for a endurance replenishing power in the same powerset, is there? I for one don't even take it anymore on a /dark blaster as I (thus subjectively) feel it doesn't really bring anything to my character.

 

Again, sorry if this has been addressed.

 

Sincerely,

Magnus