Weekly Discussion 40: Peacebringers

[Call Me Awesome]

Ok, I had a couple of 50 PB's on Live and one here on HC who's currently approaching 40.  Here's my thoughts.

 

1. Suppress the human form toggles instead of dropping them, currently they're very limited in usefulness to a Tri Form.  I saw a Dev reply awhile back that they'd still draw endurance when suppressed... how about upping the bonus recovery of the forms to compensate?

 

2. The one thing Dwarf form could really use is to make their Taunt autohit like it is for Tankers and Brutes.  An aura would be nice, but Dwarf is supposed to be an off tank/emergency tank so it's fine if they don't get one.  If they do it should be substantially weaker than a Tanker's, possibly on par with Willpower's rather anemic aura before the Tanker upgrades.

 

3. As has been mentioned, change the Knockback to Knockdown or Knockup on all applicable powers.  This would go a long way to make them more team friendly.

 

4. The Slot Crunch.  Redlynne mentioned a novel solution a bit upthread.  It would certainly solve the slot problem, but it would need testing to see just how badly it would affect power creep.  I could see it allowing for ridiculously overpowerd builds once you started figuring all the extra IO bonuses it would allow you to get with 36 extra slots to fill.  It would add to the expense but players able to afford an uber build aren't really uncommon.  Perhaps as an alternative (if this is even possible) give the character one additional slot at the under-30 levels so you'd always have 3 slots instead of 2, then getting 3 after level 30.  That would give you 13 additional slots instead of the 36 that Redlynne's suggestion gave.  It still may be too much for balance, that would need to be tested.  It would give you a potential 13 additional IO bonuses instead of 36 of them.

 

That's what comes to mind at the moment, and those thoughts would also apply to Warshades.  I'm on the fence about the reduced damage of Quantum/Void mobs currently vs where they were back when Kelds were introduced in issue 3.  It was a challenge and taught you to be cautious, but was probably a bit high then but it may be too low now.

[Midgardian]

So, as a human-only PB, I have a few thoughts.

 

The first is that even if you're going tri- or bi-form, the human component has a bit of an identity crisis, but I don't think that's a problem-- if it was expanded upon. The reason that we have the "jack of all trades, master of none" problem, I think, is because we can't quite specialize the way the VEATs can, but I think that's an easier fix than it seems. Squids can already do the blasty-blast pretty well, and crabs can tank effectively, from my understanding, albeit the above-mentioned auto-hit for their taunt and/or an aura would be ideal. Toggle suppression might go a long way for both, methinks. But that brings us back to human.

 

I think the coolest thing about PBs is that, especially with IOs, you can seriously customize a build to specialize, if you so desire. My build is damage heavy because I want my character to be a bit of a blapper, for example, but one could just as easily make a solid blasfender as well. I think in order to add a little more flare to these archetypes, we should lean into that concept a little harder so that, depending on which powers you pick, you're either a blapper or a blasfender.

 

So I would start by raising the damage modifiers for human form for melee and ranged to 1.0 and .95, respectively. Possibly raise their max damage, as I've seen on an excellent post by @mrfreedom, maybe to 425-450%, but the modifiers for sure, as that will put them below scrappers and stalkers in melee, and on par with dominators in ranged, but below blasters and squids. Next, we have to take a look at the powers.

 

The first change I'd make to powers is to lower the activation time and/or change the animation of Incandescent Strike. Melee PBs need a smoother rotation, so that we can follow the jab animation of Radiant Strike with maybe a one-two punch (like one of the Energy Melee animations, I can't remember). Incandescent Strike looks cool as a big hit, but the game plays at a bit too fast a pace for it as it is. I might also change the knockback to knockdown on at least some of the moves, primarily Incandescent Strike, Luminous Detonation, and Solar Flare, as turning those to knockdowns (especially the latter two) would give us a little bit of soft CC without costing slots. I don't mind playing with a bit of knockback for flavor, as thematically it makes sense (especially for something like Dawn Strike and even Rad Strike), but as it is, it's excessive.

 

Next, I would look for opportunities to expand upon PBs healing capabilities. The best (and coolest) idea I've seen so far is to lessen the damage on Photon Seekers and add an AoE heal to them on detonation. I think we might benefit from a third healing option, but that's not my forte. But pick up some Leadership powers and forgo some of the melee options and bickety-bam, you're a blasfender.

 

Now if we REALLY wanted to lean into the concept of specializing, especially late in the build (as it already is and as it should be), we could co-opt some other abilities to develop an Ancillary Power Pool for PBs and Shades, but that might be getting greedy.

 

Anyway, that's my two cents. Love this game, love this community, and love my PB. See yall in the City of Heroes!

 

Edit: Oh, and Mez protection for human especially. We need that real bad.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Midgardian

[mrfreedom]

I wanted to bring my own thoughts here. And some other things. Here ya go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My thoughts on scale 1-10 for each of their respected area

tanking 6.5 - This could be a lot higher but they have no real - defense resist. This hampers their true tanking. They make a good off tank.

 

ranged damage 4 - Their ranged damage in human for lacks. I think human form could be  a lot better. But why I give it so low is because of Nova. It doesn't offer enough to bring this number higher. They are great exemplars and shine in lower level ST/TF - but lets face it. Their end game ranged damage is just gross. 

 

melee damage 5 - Again this suffers. Mainly because incandescent strike is so bad. Rad punch is way better and you have to use xpunch in order to get any Single target damage going. 

AoE 8.5 This is an area I think PBer are pretty good at. 2x Flairs, Nova aoe attacks, dawn strike and seekers with KB to KD makes aoe really decent. 

 

support 1.5 Laughable. They "identity" of being able to do any roll lacks with support. Pulsar is very niche and is only good vs minions and LTs. Their heal is a ST heal that is okay but nothing to write home about.

 

favorite build, Tri, but due to above it's really optimal in Human supplemented with Dwarf to be almost CC immune. Or if you do get stunned, hope dwarf to ride out the stun.

 

Below is how I think they should be rated. 

 

Tanking 7.5 - Should add some -def resist, perhaps even - end resists to the toggle shields. (as a blanket buff and doesn't need to be toggled) OR give some def resist and end resist when hoping into Dwarf

 

Ranged Damage 6.5 Human /  8.0 Nova. Again gives a real reason to ride nova's ST attacks and AOE 

 

Melee 7. Human form Melee needs a huge buff. I understand that Dwarf has a decent modifier, but lets face it. You shouldn't have to go Dwarf to dps melee, should be tanking identity. 

 

AoE 7 human / 8 NOva - I think their aoe needs to drop a bit in human with a seeker change and Nova's aoe damage should be buff considerably. 

 

Support 4 - Support should go up a bit. I think an over all change to Pulsar wouldn't be a bad idea. What is a pulsar, A pulsar is a highly magnetized rotating neutron star that emits beams of electromagnetic radiation out of its magnetic poles.  That is what a pulsar to be. SO in order to buff this (don't know if it's even possible) should be a location drop (could look like grav controller pet) That pulses out weakfish disorients, holds, damage that is "random" or a cycle. Maybe a debuff pet that doesn't follow. Could even repulse too so yet another KB to KD slot needed 😛 Far as the heal goes, I think it should be like ele master's heal that sentinals get. Weak 3-4 person bouncing heal.

My thoughts on White Dwarf getting another ability as follows.

 

Let pulsar be used in WD, even the change I suggested would be great addition. 

 

OR Add a new ability all together.

 

Their attacks inside Dwarf are quick. Which does allow for smooth play. But Dwarf form lacks just something. I think it would be cool if they had something like gravs wormhole that doesn't do any CC but can summon a huge group and taunt them. WS could use this too. Both WS and PB it makes sense in since they both can TP while in Dwarf. This would help with Dwarf not having an AoE pulse that constantly sends out threat.  This would give something different to the table then adding some kind of PBDoT ability.

 

Change to cosmic balance below

 

Kheldians naturally thrive off the energy and essence of their teammates. Peacebringers' metamorphic nature allows them to bring balance to their team. Your Damage will increase for each nearby Tanker, Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender teammate. Your Damage Resistance will increase for each nearby Scrapper, Brute, Stalker or Blaster teammate. Each nearby Controller or Dominator teammate will grant you limited Protection from Control effects. Finally, each nearby Peacebringer, Warshade, or teamed Arachnos Soldier or Widow grants you some resistance to attack time slow effects. Furthermore, Peacebringers can draw ambient energy out of the air from enemy attacks and use it to their advantage. You cannot put Enhancements in this power.

 

Cosmic Balance 

Power Type: Auto

Target Type: Self

Effect Area: AoE -- 8.00 ft. radius (10 targets max) This one uses enemies

 

+.5% to hit on self

+3.00% strength to smashing damage on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable +3.00% strength to energy damage on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

1.00% resistance to all damage on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

0.25 confuse protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

0.25 terrorize protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

0.25 hold protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

0.25 immobilize protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

0.25 stun protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

0.25 sleep protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

+10.00% resistance to recharge on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

+ 1% resists all (includes PSI because blance give PSI resist)

 

Team Buffing

Power Type: Auto

Target Type: Self 

Effect Area: AoE -- 300.00 ft. radius (16 targets max) Does not require line of sight

 

+12.00% strength to smashing damage on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable +12.00% strength to energy damage on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

10% resistance to all damage on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

1.00 confuse protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

1.00 terrorize protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

1.00 hold protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

1.00 immobilize protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

1.00 stun protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

1.00 sleep protection on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable 

+10.00% resistance to recharge on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

 

AKA, end buff would be the same, but you would get buffs for being solo + get those buffs while you're on team. The self buffs would help when you have a serious mixed match team.

 

Change to shields.

 

I think to make the shield worth picking. Toggle suppression should be a thing. END use for those items should persist through form changing but you don't get the resistances those shields offer. You have to take them in order for dwarf to be buffed.

•  Shining could give -end protection 
• Thermal could give - slow resistance
•  Quantum could give - def resistance 

While as a collective they wouldn't be as good as real tankers/brutes etc, would be a real reason to pick those up and use them.

 

Nova could benefit from those shield changes too.

•  Shining - adds (like a proc) weak extra damage to all attacks. 4.5 PPM as energy damage
• Thermal - adds a chance for DoT to all attacks
•  Quantum - adds +20% recharge rate while in Nova form

 

Far as other ideas. Seekers should get changed to a “tornado” type pet. Chase down badies and apply a DoT. You should still get 3 of them and they should do decent damage. This would help ST damage as 3 of them would stack on 1 target doing great damage. I really dislike seekers. It feels like just another AOE button. 

[GM Miss]

Great feedback so far everyone 😄

[Obus Form]

Design philosophy, specialization, experience:

 

Disclaimer: I offer general design concept, no numbers, and echo a lot of what @Chris24601 mentioned

 

Design philosophy

Wherever the dev's decide to take PB, I will respect and acknowledge (your time, effort, and sincerity for the game/community is exemplary, with all my Obus heart, thank you!).  Since the PB is a tri-form class (ranged only blaster type, human form sentinel type, lobster form tanker type) without specialization, I am wondering if, like the VEATs, the HEATs can be forced into some sort of power choice specialization (Crab vs Bane, Fortunata vs Blood Widow) that makes their game play, while unique to themselves, competitive with other specialized ATs designed for damage, tanking, buffing, debuffing, etc.

 

Tri-form HEATs design philosophy (Jack of all trades, master of none) remind me of the vanilla WoW Druid that, while capable of doing all FOUR things (ranged DPS, melee DPS, healer, tank) never specialized in anything except healing (back then, Heal Over Time was relegated to druids).  Now, WoW druids, while capable of all 4 roles, significantly benefit from specializing into 1 role 1 role such that they are end-game competitive (the word "competitive" is taken with a grain of salt depending on how hardcore you min/max and the requirements of your raiding/PVP guild).

 

Specialization

To justify blaster-level damage numbers, sentinel-level damage/survival mixture (😂), and tanker survival numbers, if players were rewarded (with higher numbers and/or bring a unique set of debuffs/buffs to the team or playstyle) for specializing into a category, I think it would help HEAT players feel impactful on teams. 

 

On some level, jack-of-all-trades itself is a justification for lower numbers.  But from what I've read on the feedback, being jack-of-all-trades in a world of IOs (where defence is softcapped for everyone) is no longer valuable.

 

If we go along the route of specialization, like current WoW druids, it doesn't mean that the HEAT player can't change form, mid-combat, to fill a hole, it just means that it is extremely taxing and unviable to perform in the non-specialized form for longer than a 30 seconds. I understand that CoX doesn't pray at the altar of the holy trinity (DPS, tank, healer) but the idea is that the DPS-specialized druid can shift into a healing form, but it is so cost-inefficient that the healer would run out of mana after 30 seconds, or the DPS-specialized druid could switch to tank if the Tanker died, but could really only survive 4-5 more hits than normal.

 

The specialization could come in 2 ways: either like its current iteration (choosing the form gives access to new, slottable powers), or like VEATs where choosing the specialization forces the absence of certain powers from other specializations.  To keep HEAT uniqueness, I would say keep the current form of specialization, but really allow players to feel impactful in choosing that form and buffing it/its powers so that is is end-game viable, while making the other forms less viable as a result of their "specialization".

 

Experience

My (anectodal) experience comes from playing a human-form 50 PB on live, and 100s of hours on Mid's trying to make the PB end-game competitive. 

 

Sidenotes:

- As mentioned by all others, please change all KB to KD. Requiring 1 slot to make every KB --> KD is taxing

 

 

Sincerely,

[FourSpeed]

On 3/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, Call Me Awesome said:

Ok, I had a couple of 50 PB's on Live and one here on HC who's currently approaching 40.  Here's my thoughts.

 

I'm on the fence about the reduced damage of Quantum/Void mobs currently vs where they were back when Kelds were introduced in issue 3.  It was a challenge and taught you to be cautious, but was probably a bit high then but it may be too low now.

 

Having also had Khelds back on live and having written one of the early I3 guides on PB's, I believe that only two real issues need revision for the AT -- the KB and Slot Crunch.

 

I think Quants and Voids should be left as they are.  Yep. For new Khelds, they're a real Pita ... initially.  To me, learning how to handle them effectively is one of the Defining Points of a playing a Kheld in the first place, as is the interesting and unique shapeshifting aspect (imho).

 

On teams I played on, I handled Quants/Voids myself --> "They're Mine! You guys take out the other stuff". I simply made my teammates aware that those guys would be my immediate #1 priority when detected. Experienced Khelds have learned tactics, have binds, and are completely qualified to handle that threat, once they've got some seasoning under their belts.  

 

As for the KB issue, I think RedLynne's idea is excellent and completely solves the problem.  For the slot crunch, I agree with Call Me Awesome that some significant testing would be needed to ensure reasonable balance, but I do believe that something similar to, or a compromise of, the ideas he and RedLynne  presented would be an effective solution for the slot crunch - especially, if KB --> KD IO's aren't needed anymore either.

 

Finally, I also believe that Khelds have come a long way (for the better, imho) since their introduction in I3 -- I'm not in favor of vast sweeping changes to the AT. Addressing the two key issues they have, would be all they really need to put them on par with any of the other ATs afaic.

 

Regards,

4 

Edited March 6, 2020 by FourSpeed

[Safehouse]

Not much to add that hasn’t already been said, so I just want to throw some extra emphasis on mez issues. Every time I see a buckshot or quantum or any other mob known for its knockdown or other mez related abilities, I dread dealing with it because pretty often I find myself barely able to fight back unless I have break frees, and then I end up with hp in the yellow or orange. Maybe I’m just still trying to learn the AT, but it’s not fun to end up on my butt for a not-insignificant proportion of my encounters.

 

I would love improved mez protection. But I’d be open to the blaster-like ability to shoot tier 1/2 skills while mezzed. I’m open for anything. My emphasis is more on the fact that the current mez situation in human form is NOT fun. 

[MrSnottyPants]

I wonder if something could be done about the controls?

 

These are the only ATs I feel compelled to setup binds for - too many rotating powers.  But binds don't do everything I want, so I turn to hacky binds.  But hacky binds are fragile and frustrating.

 

I favor cascading binds - try the nova, then try the dwarf, then try the human.  But some powers don't cascade, and it's prone to clicked-too-fast.

 

And specific to PB, I've been trying to get a bind that switches from nova to human/hover.  Best I can do is a double click.  Also prone to clicked-too-fast, and I often drop out of melee range while doing it (I'd like to switch to hovering human to use the melee hold).

 

I realize this isn't exactly kheldian specific.  But kheldians really push binds to their limits, and those limits just aren't flexible enough.

Edited March 6, 2020 by MrSnottyPants

[Call Me Awesome]

1 hour ago, Safehouse said:

Not much to add that hasn’t already been said, so I just want to throw some extra emphasis on mez issues. Every time I see a buckshot or quantum or any other mob known for its knockdown or other mez related abilities, I dread dealing with it because pretty often I find myself barely able to fight back unless I have break frees, and then I end up with hp in the yellow or orange. Maybe I’m just still trying to learn the AT, but it’s not fun to end up on my butt for a not-insignificant proportion of my encounters.

 

I would love improved mez protection. But I’d be open to the blaster-like ability to shoot tier 1/2 skills while mezzed. I’m open for anything. My emphasis is more on the fact that the current mez situation in human form is NOT fun. 

Well, you do have Dwarf to deal with Mez, how about when you go to Dwarf you also get a short term break free buff when you drop back to Human?  That way Dwarf is your mez protection while active and a quick shift to/from eliminates the mez currently on you?

[Call Me Awesome]

1 hour ago, MrSnottyPants said:

I wonder if something could be done about the controls?

 

These are the only ATs I feel compelled to setup binds for - too many rotating powers.  But binds don't do everything I want, so I turn to hacky binds.  But hacky binds are fragile and frustrating.

This is a valid point, maybe the Dwarf and Nova shift powers should include the common binds like shifting as well as the "goto tray4", "goto tray5" for Dwarf and Nova powers?  I use the 1-0 keys for my tray 1 powers so including the command to swap trays means I still use the same keys for the form powers.

 

Lots of players are still going to be customizing them further, my bind to drop to Human form toggles both forms off and toggles on Combat Jumping, the Shining Shield and at a third press it fires off the Build Up power.  Press the key and I drop to Human and Combat Jumping activates.  A second press toggles on Shining Shield.  A third press fires off Build Up (sorry, I forget offhand the power name).  Then I may stay Human for a bit or go immediately back to Nova or Dwarf depending on the situation.

[Zepp]

Currently, Warshades gain more from the ability to shift forms instantaneously, double mire? On the other hand, PBs gain a sufficient amount that forcing form specialization would be a huge nerf.

That being said, human-form could use some buffing in terms of Damage, -Def resistance, Control, and Support. Minor changes such as bumping Pulsar to Mag 3 and making Glowing Touch a TAoE could go a long way.

[Greycat]

I love khelds. Have since I3.

I would:

- want the Dwarf taunt to be the same as tanks and brutes, that is, autohit. I shouldn't be given an inherent power that's treated like a pool power for taking the form.

- love to see the special damage brought back.

- love to see a built in "Void killer" counter. >.> I have characters built around that. I end up losing count.

- Voids as well as Qs. Other than a few special missions I don't recall seeing them recently.

 

I would hate to see my KB altered, frankly. I use it as part of my survival. I use it as soft controls. And it makes me feel like I'm *hitting* things. There's already IOs to turn it to KD if desired.

 

If people "want a reason to invite Khelds to teams" (other than "Hey, there's another player to have fun with!" which should be reason enough,)

- turn those counters into badges. Let the team get credit too. Special name on the Kheld side, though.

- Reflect the teammate type buffs back to the teammates.

 

 

[Redlynne]

Is it just me ... or am I getting a LOT OF LIKES for this set of ideas?

[MetaVileTerror]

It's a pretty solid idea.  Deserves to be Liked.

[Redlynne]

8 hours ago, FourSpeed said:

I think Quants and Voids should be left as they are.

Counter-proposal.

 

Quantums are enabled at Levels 6+ (so Nova form and up)

Voids are enabled at Levels 20+ (so Dwarf form and up)

Cysts are enabled at Levels 50+ (disabled when Exemplared to Levels 1-49)

 

Quantums are a REAL PROBLEM for Kheldians just starting out in Levels 1-5 when you've got barely any powers (not counting P2W powers) and you haven't got any "good" options (yet) for being able to deal with Quantums and Voids and so on.  Simply delay their appearance until Levels 6+ and it's all good, because Nova form can handle them without a ton of slots being needed.

 

Voids are just "more powerful Quantums who are easier to spot in a non-5th group" and really shouldn't be showing up during Levels 1-19.

 

Cysts ... if you can't handle Cysts at Levels 50+ when you've got ALL of your powers and ALL of your slots ... you need a LOT of help ...

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

Currently, Warshades gain more from the ability to shift forms instantaneously, double mire? On the other hand, PBs gain a sufficient amount that forcing form specialization would be a huge nerf.

That being said, human-form could use some buffing in terms of Damage, -Def resistance, Control, and Support. Minor changes such as bumping Pulsar to Mag 3 and making Glowing Touch a TAoE could go a long way.

Warshades gain more, but they also have to risk more (and some things, like invasions, work against them - corpses vanish too fast for some powers.) PBs are pretty self contained.

[Troo]

On 3/2/2020 at 7:06 AM, Redlynne said:

Change ALL Peacebringer KnockBACK to instead be KnockUP.

As someone who likes knockback, I would be okay with the above suggestion for the AoE and cone attacks.

 

Alternately, keeping at least one single target knockback and increasing it's ability.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Troo

[MrSnottyPants]

7 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

Press the key and I drop to Human and Combat Jumping activates.

How did you make this work?  I've tried to make a bind that turns off Nova, and turns on Combat Flight, but it requires 2 clicks.  And I have to wait a bit or the second click doesn't take.  Which means I drop 5 to 10 feet.

 

This stuff, more than anything else, frustrates me to where I stop playing the PB for a bit.  That and Incandescent Strike taking so long to activate...

[Chris24601]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

As someone who likes knockback, I would be okay with the above suggestion for the AoE and cone attacks.

 

Alternately, keeping at least one single target knockback and increasing it's ability.

 

As someone who mostly ends up soloing, I MUCH prefer knockBACK on my ranged attacks.

 

To be blunt about it, knock up never knocks a mob INTO anything and that’s the difference between the mob getting up and shooting you again in 2 seconds or the ragdoll physics leaving them flailing and helpless for 5-10 seconds as it tries to dislodge itself from the geometry.

 

Particularly in the squishy Nova form, knockBACK provides far superior mitigation to knockUP when you %#&$ up an pull more than planned.

 

I do NOT get this obsession with converting ever last bit of knockback into knockup. Scattering can be useful mitigation and even in large groups it makes about half a second’s difference in the rate an 8-man team melts a spawn.

 

It’s to the point I feel like the knockback to knockup proc is one of the single biggest banes to the game; that people are compromising their set bonuses just to kill things on radio missions half a second faster.

 

Leave my Kheldian Knockback alone. I love it and knockback in general has kept all my squishier characters alive way better than knockup ever has.

 

Down with the Knockup Hegemony!!! 😜

 

ETA: How much do I love knockback? I love it Grav/Storm much!!!

Edited March 7, 2020 by Chris24601

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I do NOT get this obsession with converting ever last bit of knockback into knockup.

That's easy to answer.  It's because you believe in this ...

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Scattering can be useful mitigation and even in large groups

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I do NOT get this obsession with converting ever last bit of knockback into knockup. Scattering can be useful mitigation and even in large groups it makes about half a second’s difference in the rate an 8-man team melts a spawn.

 

It’s to the point I feel like the knockback to knockup proc is one of the single biggest banes to the game; that people are compromising their set bonuses just to kill things on radio missions half a second faster.

As I said I like knock-back.

I do get that there are folks that don't like teaming with characters that have lots of knock-back.

With how fast characters level many don't learn to control it as well as those with more experience.

There is no knock-back to knock-up proc, it is a knockdown proc. This is part of why I view knock-up as part of a compromise. We can still send them somewhere, up, and that distance could be enhance-able.

 

I would much prefer a toggle that could turn it on/off as appropriate. Ala dual pistols.

 

maybe I'm just repeating myself..

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Troo

[mrfreedom]

IDK no one will ever win the knockback conversation. People enjoy it. some people don't.

 

AoE knockback is what I hate. Sure you can get a bit more mitigation from it, but it's also a dps loss if you're constantly using AoE attacks to whittle down everyone. I think knockback is one of the issues with Peacebringers. I'll try to explain.

 

knock back is one of the most powerful abilities outside of hard crowd control. With the limits of the engine and how easily you can get the mobs stuck in things. I can consider it almost an exploit. Knock back is also one of the reason why I believe energy damage from blasters etc, is a bit lower than other abilities. I am sure at one time it had a stat weight and it's probably pretty high.  Once you get away from solo play and start creeping into high level play, KB becomes counter intuitive into CoH play.  Everyone is powerful and aoe is king in CoH. So if you're blasting everyone every which way, you're not only lowering your dps, but you're lowing the dps of your whole team.  Honestly, there should be a power for Peacebringers/energy blasters, etc or a global macro you can use that will switch all your powers from KB to KD, that way you can enjoy it soloing, or on teams that don't care. And when you're on a heavy hitting team, you don't "ruin" the fun of other players. 

My 4 cents. (inflation) 

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, mrfreedom said:

 So if you're blasting everyone every which way, you're not only lowering your dps, but you're lowing the dps of your whole team.  Honestly, there should be a power for Peacebringers/energy blasters, etc or a global macro you can use that will switch all your powers from KB to KD, that way you can enjoy it soloing, or on teams that don't care. And when you're on a heavy hitting team, you don't "ruin" the fun of other players. 

My 4 cents. (inflation) 

 

To which my response tends to be "So don't knock them back every which way." Don't jump into the middle of a group and hit it. If I'm in Nova, I tend to be blasting downward if I'm on a team. Human or dwarf? From the edge inward or edge toward a wall.

 

Single target knockback? Usually I'm focusing on a target. I knock it back (often a Quantum on a kheld,) it's mine, the tank/brute/scrapper has the rest of the group to deal with and shouldn't be complaining that I used "omg knockback!" because it's not affecting them.

 

Just like "Don't kill the toggle anchor first," it's down to player training. Most of the KB problems are PEBKAC issues.

[mrfreedom]

10 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Just like "Don't kill the toggle anchor first," it's down to player training. Most of the KB problems are PEBKAC issues.

Best mitigation are 0 enemies. IF you're taking 30-40 seconds on a group because you don't Dawn strike to take out all the Minions and Lts, That is your play style. To where it only takes me 10 seconds. I am not saying KB doesn't have it place. Or it depends on positioning. But your argument is mitigation. 

You're not always going to be facing a wall. Or have an area to send them. Sure you do a lot. But on +4/8 missions when I am soloing, I start with my Debuff aoe, which would knock them back, jump in Dawn Strike/flare/seekers. AND all of those have knock back. It would be a huge dps loss if I removed KB to KD. Mitigation time would go down unless you ragdoll them into a wall. 

LIKE I said, it's not for everyone.  IT's a DPS loss solo play or team play, but IF YOU LIKE IT, that's ok. Some of us do, some of us don't. If you're above them shooting down, it pretty much turns it into kb to kd if the mag is pretty low. Dawn strike isn't low nore is seekers. Nova aoe is only slightly better than human aoe in scatter and det. but Dawn strike/flare/seeker will always beat out anything you can push in Nova form. 

MY issue isn't PEBKAC. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by mrfreedom

[Redlynne]

5 minutes ago, mrfreedom said:

AoE knockback is what I hate.

INCONSISTENT Knockback is what I hate.  Doing Knockback SOMETIMES but not ALL the time, consistently, is just annoying.  When it's purely RNG based, with no way to influence or bias the RNG in any way so as to drag the odds towards consistency through build choices, that just becomes frustrating.  Doing Knockback to some ... but not all ... of a group of $Targets is just annoying AND frustrating at the same time, because it increases the scatter factor in ways that are both unhelpful (random repositioning) and unhelpful (soft control on some but not all who are affected).

 

The thing that I find most egregious about Knock effects, in all their forms, is that there's no way for the Player to "control" their Knock effects such that they can INTELLIGENTLY and DELIBERATELY use their Knock effects SELECTIVELY ... on demand ... during gameplay.  That's because sometimes you want it and it's helpful to have it, but other times it's not and it's detrimental to the overall "flow" of combat.  Being able to CHOOSE when to inflict full power Knock effects, and when to "pull your punches" so the Knock effects won't "rearrange the battlefield indiscriminately" then leads to an important DECISION POINT for the Player to control SKILLFULLY.

 

Best way to achieve that in a City of Heroes context is a self affecting toggle (with no activation, animation or meaningful endurance cost) that automatically constrains all Knockback effects into being 0.67-0.75 MAG for KnockDOWN while the toggle is running ... so as to let Players CHOOSE ... on the fly ... as situations evolve and change in real time ... whether they want to be doing KnockBACK or merely KnockDOWN at any particular point in time with their powers.  It would give Players the opportunity to CHOOSE how they want their Knock powers to perform/behave, and it wouldn't be an ALL OR NOTHING kind of affair like going to Null The Gull would be (as some people have suggested at other times on this topic).