Poll on Big Picture Game Change and Development Priorities

[Dr Causality]

In the recent discussions about "rebalancing", bug fixing and nerfing the PPM proc system,   /Time, /Darkness Affinity, Powerboosted Def, etc.    we've been mostly been caught up on discussing the relative merits, details and balance of those powers.  Before embarking on major game changing overhauls I think it would be wise for us to take a step back, and think about the big picture impact and our priorities.   

 

We've been having a great time for the roughly year the Homecoming servers have been public....with powers and sets working largely as they do now.   There's no immediate need to make major game changes and we'd do well to take a breath and think more carefully about what we as community want and how those changes are likely to impact excitement and enjoyment of the game.    I would have liked more poll questions than the allowed two, but hopefully this poll will shed some light on players big picture priorities and this thread can be a discussion to fill in the nuances and gaps left out in the poll.

 

 

 

Poll was edited to add "content/story arcs" in question #1 and "bug fixes" in #2.  Only 4 people had taken the poll when the edit was made so hopefully shouldn't disrupt the results as much the better nuances will improve quality of answers...

Edited March 11, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Dr Causality]

My personal take is we should prioritize whatever increases player enjoyment and excitement.  For me that would mean prioritizing buffs to underperforming sets and making quality of life improvements.  Whereas, I feel nerfs instead tend to undermine, and  lessen player enjoyment and game enthusiasm.  So if we were too enact large nerfs, I'd want them done only if they  were done at the same time as buffs and included a roadmap of all the overperforming powers and sets we intended to rebalance with the nerfs...

 

PVP is obviously a different situation.   But for PVE the question I have for people arguing for prioritizing nerfs is "How are out of balance overperforming powers ruining the fun or game?"

 

• You aren't required to use or play those "broken" powers or AT's:
• Is it that people who use them can solo or do things you can't?
• Or that teams with composed of them can have faster MoITF speed times?
• For PVE I seriously, not understanding how it's a problem that needs to be a priority to fix?

 

How is the out of balance Powerboosted Def, insane mitigation from Bonfire's with Overwhelming KD, shear power of TW/Bio monsters, or PPM abusing Defender a bigger more important balance problem than the under performing sets that need to love?

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Dr Causality

[biostem]

I feel that any discussion about what sets are over- or under-performing is highly subjective, and since people use different metrics, such a discussion is more likely to trigger an argument than come to any sort of agreement.  What I want to see are more options made available, and existing powersets tweaked to fill different niches, instead of all being placed into lock-step with one-another.

 

20 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

"How are out of balance overperforming powers ruining the fun or game?"

Solo, I couldn't care less.  On a team, if certain sets are drastically under- or over-performing, it can kill any motivation some people have to keep going - it is important for folks, (who aren't just looking to leech XP while door-sitting),  to be able to contribute in a meaningful way.

 

22 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

For PVE I'm seriously, not understanding how it's a problem that needs to be a priority to fix?

Well, if it isn't important to you that any character can contribute meaningfully in a team environment, regardless of what powersets or AT they play, then it wouldn't occur to you.  If you don't like having to carry a team or being carried by others, then you want there to be a certain baseline of effectiveness for any given player/character.

 

24 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

How is the out of balance Powerboosted Def, insane mitigation from Bonfire's with Overwhelming KD, shear power of TW/Bio monsters, or PPM abusing Defender a bigger more important balance problem than the under performing sets that need to love?

More important?  I'm not sure.  Important in a general sense, sure.  If the devs want to put forth an objective metric that all sets will be measured against, then we can actually determine what needs "love" and what needs the nerf bat...

[Dr Causality]

19 minutes ago, biostem said:

Solo, I couldn't care less.  On a team, if certain sets are drastically under- or over-performing, it can kill any motivation some people have to keep going - it is important for folks, (who aren't just looking to leech XP while door-sitting),  to be able to contribute in a meaningful way.

.....

Well, if it isn't important to you that any character can contribute meaningfully in a team environment, regardless of what powersets or AT they play, then it wouldn't occur to you.  If you don't like having to carry a team or being carried by others, then you want there to be a certain baseline of effectiveness for any given player/character.

 

I see this as an argument for buffing underperforming but not clearly for nerfing overperforming.    I think the changes to Stalkers are a perfect example of what I'd like to see prioritized.     It used to be that you often couldn't get team invites especially on TFs when playing stalkers.    But I haven't seen the reverse problem where team leaders are demanding teams be composed of entirely of just overperforming sets like TW/Bio or /Time.    

 

If anything over performance has made it easier to get team invites because you no longer have to worry so much about team composition.     It's now hard to imagine being on a team that couldnt' finish the ITF.   And on full teams things are melting so quickly it's difficult to tell whose carrying most of the weight.   The biggest game play enjoyment issue I've seen is that someone in full on "scrapper can now really ignore the team splitting off to solo the TF by themselves.   But I'd argue that's more a lack of teamwork and antisocial behavior problem, rather than a game balance overperformance  problem.   

Edited March 11, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Galaxy Brain]

As somebody who is responsible for an odyssey long epic thread about nerfing TW by a hair, I agree that buffs should be dealt first and foremost.

 

If nerfs do happen,  even to TW, I would much rather also see it buffed in kind to shift the power rather than take away.

[Snow0wl]

I just see it all as part of an overall balancing of everything, too many looking at individual parts instead of a bigger picture to what is being worked for , nerfing will happen , buffing will happen.  My point of view is this is really just one big alpha/beta testing to update the game, working to have a more balance game if/when it gets legitimized, and nothing is set in stone. So giving my feedback and  just rolling with each update. 

 

This isn't the City of Heroes we lost. It's another City that looks similar but is and will change.  It's a game that started development in 2019 built on the shell of the game we lost.  Yes some things have been a certain way for a while , doesn't mean they wil stay that way.  Like I said above this is more like an Alpha/Beta test for what Homecoming has in their vision, but as a volunteer effort things take time , and they are also working on back end stuff to be able to move the game forward. Some things may take a bit to get too but they will get to them.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Snow0wl

[Coyotedancer]

People are actually complaining somewhere about KD Specials in Bonfire?! Seriously?? o_0

[Dr Causality]

34 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

People are actually complaining somewhere about KD Specials in Bonfire?! Seriously?? o_0

Well if we're looking at out of balance game breaking powers, then Bonfire with KD proc is high on my list.   My jaw dropped the first time I saw it in action.     It completely changed the way Bonfire works,  transforming it into a top tier mitigation power that's now better than what used to be set defining KD patch powers like Oil Slick, Earthquake, Ice Patch etc.     Why bother with /TA's Oil Slick with it's massive cooldown?   Or why choose Earth Control over Fire Control, when you can get that much mitigation from Bonfire AND do tons more damage....?     Or how about having Controller level mitigation from a single power that Blasters and MM's can get from their Epic Pool?    

 

 

Edit   I'd rather see /TA's Oil Slick buffed or get reduced cooldown more in line with Bonfire.   Buffs to Earth Control and Ice Control etc.   But if we're Nerfing instead or Nerfing first, then Bonfire should get the Nerf bat.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Replacement]

I'm honestly a bit disappointed in myself for voting buffs instead of nerfs but... There are some serious low performers out there, and many of the obvious improvements aren't even controversial. Still, let it be known that I think have-it-all Brutes and AE farms killed this game once already.

[Solarverse]

This reminds me of one of those articles that so called "news" websites write, to which they say, "Why [enter subject here] is horrible!" I read that as, "even though nothing of what I say is popular opinion, I am going to title it as though it is, and you are wrong for not seeing it my way."

 

Instead, you posted votes as if what they are voting for is something everyone agrees upon. I don't have a TW character that I play (I have one, just never play him) and I don't agree that it is over powered, especially since on my server, it doesn't seem like they are played all that often. So telling me that it is over powered and that I should somehow accept this and vote on what I think should be done about it, is assuming way too much of the reader. You assume your readers find it over powered...I do not. And I especially have no issue with Bonfire.

 

I feel this thread is bait, and I won't ever be on the side of nerf herders. Nerf herders have ruined damn near every single game I have ever played online. I'm just glad nerf herders are powerless to change my single player games.

 

Sorry, I just can't support this thread....like at all.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

People are actually complaining somewhere about KD Specials in Bonfire?! Seriously?? o_0

I guess the players who want Knock Back are raging that other players can use a KB in it instead? Who knows. IMO abeing able to turn it to a KB by either using Fire Cages or putting a KB to KD in that power is the ONLY thing that makes it useful.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Solarverse

[Grouchybeast]

I play blasters, and I love Bonfire with the KD proc, but if it gets rebalanced at some point well, them's the breaks.  I try not to get too attached to what's clearly an OP niche interaction between two things that are otherwise individually perfectly fine.  Rather, I look on it as a fun bonus to a build, not something I'd construct a character around.  Like with PB and Farsight, if the devs decide that KD Bonfire needs a look, it would make much more sense to me for them to decide to trim back the ridiculous outlier than expect that everything else gets buffed to match it.

[Solarverse]

45 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

Well if we're looking at out of balance game breaking powers, then Bonfire with KD proc is high on my list.   My jaw dropped the first time I saw it in action.     It completely changed the way Bonfire works, /snip

You do realize Fire Cages does the exact same thing to Bonfire, right? You can throw down Bonfire just after you use Fire Cages, and it does the exact same thing. The only difference here is, that now players can lead with Bonfire instead of Fire Cages. Not to mention, DPS usually kills the entire mob long before Bonfire even matters anyway. Mez is so over rated in this game these days...I don't think nerfing Bonfire will make a bit of difference.

 

I think you are going to be VERY hard pressed trying to get anyone to agree with you on this one.

 

This game has been nerfed to the ground and back since release. I think people are kind of tired of all the nerfing.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Solarverse

[KingofMonkeys]

Dont you touch mah KB to KD in bonfire!

 

In all seriousness, would much rather see under performing sets buffed instead of nerfing the ones that are popular now.

Edited March 12, 2020 by KingofMonkeys

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

major game changing overhauls

What discussions and where?

[Troo]

and who is 'we'?

[Galaxy Brain]

29 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

This game has been nerfed to the ground and back since release. I think people are kind of tired of all the nerfing.

We're way more powerful now than ever, whatchu talkin bout? ED?

 

Look, the reality is that we cannot simply continue to buff everything else you get Syndrome.... syndrome. If every melee set performs just as well as TW (which I among others have proven) then the game gets broken / or at a more menial level powersets just become aesthetic choices.

[Doomrider]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If every melee set performs just as well as TW (which I among others have proven)

Say what now? 🤨

[krj12]

The game needs more end game content.  More story arcs and more incarnate trials would be nice.

 

As far as nerfing powers,  I would say an emphatic no - the only time a nerf should occur is if something is game breaking.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

9 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Say what now? 🤨

TW is a step above other melee sets in most every test thrown at it.

[Solarverse]

21 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

We're way more powerful now than ever, whatchu talkin bout? ED?

 

Look, the reality is that we cannot simply continue to buff everything else you get Syndrome.... syndrome. If every melee set performs just as well as TW (which I among others have proven) then the game gets broken / or at a more menial level powersets just become aesthetic choices.

Are you specifically talking about TW, TW in PvP, or TW with Bio?

[Doomrider]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

TW is a step above other melee sets in most every test thrown at it.

I'd say more like a leap but yeah agreed. I read your first statement as if it was suggesting the opposite, all good 👍.

[Dr Causality]

42 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

You do realize Fire Cages does the exact same thing to Bonfire, right? You can throw down Bonfire just after you use Fire Cages, and it does the exact same thing.

Not really.   Even with Homecomings changes to the -1000% KB Resistance in Immobilizes, without the KD proc you still have to keep casting Fire Cages every 12s or Bonfire Knocks enemies out of it's patches causing it's mitigation to stop working.   Also back when Fire Cages did full -KB I recall skipping Bonfire on tight builds because for damage alone it's not that impressive.  But with the mitigation is provides now, you'd be crazy to skip it now, and it's mainly what I used to level my Fire/Time controller. 

 

But if anyone cares, we should start a separate thread about Bonfire rather than losing sight of the overall Big Picture discussion.    

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Are you specifically talking about TW, TW in PvP, or TW with Bio?

TW in general and top end PvE content, I can see it being bad in PvP.... but yeah 

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Dr Causality said:

Not really.   Even with Homecomings changes to the -1000% KB Resistance in Immobilizes, without the KD proc you still have to keep casting Fire Cages every 12s or Bonfire Knocks enemies out of it's patches causing it's mitigation to stop working.   Also back when Fire Cages did full -KB I recall skipping Bonfire on tight builds because for damage alone it's not that impressive.  But with the mitigation is provides now, you'd be crazy to skip it now, and it's mainly what I used to level my Fire/Time controller. 

 

But if anyone cares, we should start a separate thread about Bonfire rather than losing sight of the overall Big Picture discussion.    

I play on Excelsior, and honestly, I just don't see very many Fire Trollers/Doms running around to care. I also don't see very many TW players out there. And to be honest, I even care less that some other set performs better than mine. I think the ONLY way this matters, is in PvP and to be honest, I don't give a damn about PvP in this game. I really hope this is not another nerf due to something that happens in PvP? If so, I just can't get on board with nerfing anything over PvP.