Focused Feedback: Dark Miasma (Release Candidates)

[Super Homer]

29 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

but sleet was a direct copy/paste of freezing rain, which was NOT correctly adjusted between defs and trollers (35%/30%). So the argument that cold should be 30% for secondaries only stands up if we pretend that the power didn't already exist in a different secondary which was never adjusted correctly to begin with. 

I honestly would start from that point, and consider the sets both powers live in. 

 

I dont think Storm is an extremely awesome set, although it can be very fun. Cold Domination is bonkers strong, though, despite frostwork being underwhelming. I would actually nerf Sleet on non-defenders, and buff Freezing Rain on Defenders.

 

Maybe -40%/-30% freezing rain for defenders/others, -30%/-22.5% sleet for defenders/others.

[Bopper]

Just playing devil's advocate, but is it possible the reason why non-defenders had powers designed with -30% debuff (such as a Corruptor only powerset getting a pseudopet) is because the other pseudopets were already using it and it seemed like the path of least resistance? Afterall, if they designed it with non-defender numbers then proliferated it to defenders, you're stuck with non-defender values on the pet (makes defenders sad).

 

Just a thought. Probably wrong. Maybe not.

[Troo]

Still no specifics on what the actual impacts are from the HC team. I was hoping there would be a bit more in this thread.

Very general / High level information = Guessing at specifics

"The following powers were using Defender modifiers, they have been fixed to use their own AT modifiers" = players left to guess

 

-Regen, -DMG, -To-Hit, Team Heal, -SPD, -Jump, -Fly, -Res(All) and now ACC

 

What is affected what are the changes?

Example:

 

Corruptor	Old	New
-Regen
-DMG
-To-Hit
Team Heal
-SPD
-Jump
-Fly
-Res(All)
Self Heal	n/a?

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Troo

[Coyote]

3 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I'd also expect a few powers to be trimmed down (rhymes with bar-light).

 

How do you get Fulcrum Shift to rhyme with light? 😄 😛

[Frosticus]

3 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

How do you get Fulcrum Shift to rhyme with light? 😄 😛

ha! I did say a few though. Although I will freely admit that I think a power that at least carries some risk attached should be allowed to be stronger than powers that have zero risk attached. Where that places fulcrum? dunno.  But we'll see how everything shakes out.

[Super Homer]

29 minutes ago, Troo said:

Still no specifics on what the actual impacts are from the HC team. I was hoping there would be a bit more in this thread.

Why not just get the numbers from the game? They are all in the character creator.

[Trickshooter]

47 minutes ago, Troo said:

Still no specifics on what the actual impacts are from the HC team. I was hoping there would be a bit more in this thread.

Very general / High level information = Guessing at specifics

"The following powers were using Defender modifiers, they have been fixed to use their own AT modifiers" = players left to guess

 

-Regen, -DMG, -To-Hit, Team Heal, -SPD, -Jump, -Fly, -Res(All) and now ACC

I have checked none of these in-game, they're just based on what I know of the AT modifiers:

 

-Regeneration: There are no modifiers for this.

-Damage, -ToHit: These already followed the AT modifiers, only the heal didn't because it was the only part handled by the psuedopet.

Heal: IF it follows the modifiers now, and the scale is kept the same, Controllers and Corruptor's should Heal for 210.15 at level 50 (down from 238.81), Masterminds should Heal for 191.05 at 50 (down from 209.9).

-Speed/Jump/Fly: Controller's should remain the same (-90%), they share Slow mods with Defenders. Corruptor and Mastermind would be -72%.

-Resistance: Controllers, Corruptors and Masterminds should be at -22.5% (down from -30%).

 

I don't know about Dark Servant. I guess someone should test him. He has several powers that could be affected by inheriting caster mods, but only his Twilight Grasp is mentioned, so maybe his powers stay the same and only the Heal changed to match the caster's version.

 

In my old spreadsheet, I have his powers at the following values pre-Sunset:

 

Chill of the Night: -30% ToHit

Darknest Night: -30% Damage, -15% ToHit

Twilight Grasp: -5% ToHit, -10% Damage, -50% Regeneration, I don't have the old Heal value saved

Petrifying Gaze: 11.92s Hold (Mag3)

[oedipus_tex]

It's maybe worth remembering that Freezing Rain originated with the Storm Summoning powerset, which was designed for mitigation-through-chaos. That's why Freezing Rain has such a short pet duration but long -Resist duration. The idea was that you'd cast it and then blow enemies out of its radius. I can't be sure, but based on patch notes it looks like the long duration feature may have been added in Issue 4. The long debuff duration was then kept in place when Sleet was proliferated.

 

From i4 patch notes:

Quote

• Increased the duration of the Freezing Rain's debuffs.

 

 

Both Sleet and Freezing Rain are radically different from Tar Patch. Tar Patch was originally designed not as a clone of Freezing Rain at all, but actually as a power comparable to Snow Storm. Its original purpose was mostly to handle mobs who try to run away because of Fearsome Stare. It only became a -Resist power in Issue 4.

 

From i4 patch notes:

Quote

• Dark Miasma/Tar Patch now also debuffs affected targets' damage resistance and prevents foes from jumping and flying. Recharge time has been increased. Improvement to the power, now gets a Damage Resistance debuff. The increase to the recharge time prevents stacking of the effect.

 

 

That leaves these other AoE -Resist profiles, but you'll note other than some very general patterns they are all radically different.

• Auto hit toggles (toggle duration)
  • Sonic Disruption (Sonic, no other effects)
  • Enervating Field (Radiation, also has -Damage)
  • Venomous Gas (Poison, also has -Defense, -ToHit, -Damage)
• One time bursts combined with -Defense that roll accuracy (note, powers are mostly identical but Thermal's is slightly better)
  • Melt Armor (Thermal, 40 seconds)
  • Slowed Response (Time, 30 seconds)
• Unstackable auto hit
  • Disruption Arrow -20% resist and just weird all the way around and generally much weaker than other AoE -Resist powers
• Weaken (Poison), however you classify it
• Acid Mortar (Traps), however you classify it
• Heat Loss (Cold), which stands alone as its own totally different thing

 

So the takeaway is there is no "standard" AoE -Resist. The duration, delivery method, and secondary effects are all radically different. So its not really possible to extrapolate across the set, sometimes even within a set (e.g. Cold or Poison).

 

What you should be able to do, though, is extrapolate across archetypes. In other words, the power should generally be stronger on Defenders than the other ATs. After the Dark change, the sets for which that isn't true are mainly Trick Arrow and then the sets where the numbers don't line up properly. 

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Super Homer said:

Why not just get the numbers from the game? They are all in the character creator.

I believe it may not be that simple.

• Some aspects of the powers impacted may use the AT modifiers while other aspects may not.
• Some aspects may already be correct and remain unchanged.

A little clarity from those making the changes would help eliminate guessing.

There are players that have more knowledge than others and who may well understand the changes. BUT, it should be crystal clear for all players. (especially when it comes to negatively impacting powers)

Edited March 19, 2020 by Troo
edits shown in italic and moved to bullets

[esotericist]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

I believe it may not be that simple. Some aspects may use the AT modifiers while others are fixed. 

 

A little clarity from those making the changes would help eliminate guessing.

There are players that have more knowledge than others and who may well understand the changes. BUT, it should be crystal clear for all players. (especially when it comes to negatively impacting powers)

 

Folks looked in game, compared from live, and found that twilight grasp was unmodified except heal magnitude, and tar patch was unmodified except resist magnitude.

 

This isn't hard to determine, and it's standard for city patch notes not to litter them with specific numerical details. It was pretty much the policy of paragon studios that if you wanted exact numbers, you loaded up and looked at the in-game numbers; and homecoming seems to have largely kept with that

[siolfir]

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

One time bursts combined with -Defense that roll accuracy (note, powers are mostly identical but Thermal's is slightly better)

• Melt Armor (Thermal, 40 seconds)
• Slowed Response (Time, 30 seconds)

 

You missed Anguishing Cry (Pain Domination, 30s).

 

Also, the only things better for Melt Armor compared to Slowed Response are the duration (40 vs 30) and cast time (1.5 vs 2.27) - it has a smaller radius (15' vs 25') and shorter range (70' vs 80') with a higher recharge (150 vs 90) and endurance cost (18.2 vs 15.6). Anguishing Cry is PBAoE with a 25' radius, 1.97 second cast time, and 13 endurance cost on a 120 second recharge but otherwise has identical -defense and -resistance numbers.

[Erydanus]

As someone who played a dark/dark defender on live - and lead a dark/dark defender themed supergroup there - and then rolled a dark/dark controller I am 100% fine with these changes. The accuracy buff to Twilight Grasp is a nice perk, it will be especially helpful to low level players but won't significantly change how I slot or use the power. Making the affected powers conform to AT scales makes sense, I had this weird feeling something was overperforming but I chalked it up to the overwhelming awesomeness of the set in general.

 

Basically, everything Oedipus_Tex said on page 2 goes for me. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

Since we're fixing things that don't conform to AT modifiers, how about boosting the end drain for Defenders and Corrupters on Electric Blast? They are using Blaster numbers and should be proportionately higher. And no, the Blaster versions aren't too high, so I cannot possibly imagine nerfing a weak secondary down from defender values...

 

I'm fine w the Dark changes. The small loss of healing from dark servant being changed should be offset by the substantially increased accuracy, and the tar patch changes would likely need a parser to even notice.  

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Since we're fixing things that don't conform to AT modifiers, how about boosting the end drain for Defenders and Corrupters on Electric Blast

Nice catch. I never noticed that before. It looks like Corruptors and Blasters have the same AT modifier for end drain (which is from a table I saw in 2006, so maybe it changed), but defenders should have a 25% stronger end drain modifier. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Nice catch. I never noticed that before. It looks like Corruptors and Blasters have the same AT modifier for end drain (which is from a table I saw in 2006, so maybe it changed), but defenders should have a 25% stronger end drain modifier. 

Then that seems like a design oversight to me. I don't understand why Corrupters and Blasters should have the same modifer on any debuff, given one is a damage/support hybrid. Other values are different (to-hit debuff, defense debuff, resistance debuff) and follow Defender>Corrupter>Blaster in terms of strength. Slows are also ignored by AT, so it seems defenders/corrupters could be adjusted upwards on those as well. 

[Trickshooter]

19 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Nice catch. I never noticed that before. It looks like Corruptors and Blasters have the same AT modifier for end drain (which is from a table I saw in 2006, so maybe it changed), but defenders should have a 25% stronger end drain modifier. 

Defender's have a 1.25 modifier, Corruptors (and Controllers) have a 1.1 modifier, every other AT has a 1.0.

Edit: This is for Ranged EndDrain. The Melee table for EndDrain has Masterminds and Corruptors reversed (along with several other melee table mods, as mentioned in the last thread, and I hope that wasn't missed). Doesn't really come in to play really, these ATs rarely use the melee tables for support mods.

Edit 2: Also, Dominators oddly have a 1.1 modifier, but only on the Melee table.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Trickshooter

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Then that seems like a design oversight to me. I don't understand why Corrupters and Blasters should have the same modifer on any debuff, given one is a damage/support hybrid. Other values are different (to-hit debuff, defense debuff, resistance debuff) and follow Defender>Corrupter>Blaster in terms of strength. Slows are also ignored by AT, so it seems defenders/corrupters could be adjusted upwards on those as well. 

My apologies, the numbers I gave earlier were only looking at Melee powers, not Range powers. Range endurance drain, Corruptors should have a 10% stronger end drain. 

 

Here are the tables I'm referencing

 

[Bopper]

Just now, Trickshooter said:

Defender's have a 1.25 modifier, Corruptors (and Controllers) have a 1.1 modifier, every other AT has a 1.0.

Sniped me lol

[oedipus_tex]

12 hours ago, siolfir said:

You missed Anguishing Cry (Pain Domination, 30s).

 

Also, the only things better for Melt Armor compared to Slowed Response are the duration (40 vs 30) and cast time (1.5 vs 2.27) - it has a smaller radius (15' vs 25') and shorter range (70' vs 80') with a higher recharge (150 vs 90) and endurance cost (18.2 vs 15.6). Anguishing Cry is PBAoE with a 25' radius, 1.97 second cast time, and 13 endurance cost on a 120 second recharge but otherwise has identical -defense and -resistance numbers.

 

 

Thanks for that clarification. I admit I didn't look closely at Melt Armor's recharge or radius. It just goes to show how radically different each of the AoE -Resist powers is even when they share a similar profile, like these two powers do. 

[Darkneblade]

Now that we are revising Dark Miasma. Can we add new fx for dark servant similar to illusion got ? (phantom army or something)

[csr]

One thing overlooked in the AoE -Res power comparisons is the level at which the power can be chosen.  While CoH has never had a strict hierarchy of later powers being better than earlier ones, there is a relatively modest tendency (compared to other MMOs) for that to be true.

[oedipus_tex]

26 minutes ago, csr said:

One thing overlooked in the AoE -Res power comparisons is the level at which the power can be chosen.  While CoH has never had a strict hierarchy of later powers being better than earlier ones, there is a relatively modest tendency (compared to other MMOs) for that to be true.

 

 

I admit that sometimes this is frustrating. The worst offender in my opinion is Cold Domination's Sleet. Waiting 35 levels for that power has made me vow never to play Cold Domination again unless it is changed. There are other sets that wait til 35 or even 38, but they have a lot going on before that.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

I admit that sometimes this is frustrating. The worst offender in my opinion is Cold Domination's Sleet. Waiting 35 levels for that power has made me vow never to play Cold Domination again unless it is changed. There are other sets that wait til 35 or even 38, but they have a lot going on before that.

Heck, Dominators get Sleet at the same level as Corruptors and Controllers.

[Myrmidon]

On 3/18/2020 at 3:00 PM, Troo said:

Still no specifics on what the actual impacts are from the HC team. I was hoping there would be a bit more in this thread.

Patience, Highlander. They have a lot on their plate and I’m sure they’ll chime in when the time is right.

[MagicSquid]

I'd like to encourage the devs to consider buffing the Defender dark sets rather than nerfing the  Corruptor/MM sets if they really want to bring them in line. These "bugs" have been in place for 15 years or so and it's not like people were beating down the door to have them corrected.