Restrict Judgment powers during regular play.

[Peacemoon]

The best sort of ‘fix’ would be to have custom rules for TFs that restrict super powers like incarnate judgements, and give some beneficial extra reward for doing so. 
 

Like no incarnates and +50% merit rewards.

would still be more time effective to run with incarnates, but gives people the option of playing without.

 

Like others I find 45+ is pretty boring because of it. Incarnates aren’t the only problem but they’re a big part of it. TBH there’s not much I can’t solo at 50 and it’s more challenging/fun to try do it by myself. I’m a logical player and I like strategising - nuking everything on repeat loses

my interest fast.
 

Lower levels I definitely enjoy teams though.  

[Yaliw]

13 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

/jranger (aka NOPE!)

If you can come up with a technical reason?  Basis for discussion.

But you're arguing solely based on an anecdotal, personally qualitative measurement of "Fun".

What if I'm a wannabe thunder god (aka an Elec/Elec Tank wannabe) who spams Ion every time it comes up?
What if *I* think *THAT* is fun?
Hmm?

 

You are also arguing solely based on anecdotal measures of fun so... not a good counter point.

I think we need to discuss the heart of the matter, whatever it is. Some people clearly are annoyed that incarnate powers are used in content that is designed for non-incarnate characters. Some people are arguing that nullifies some challenge, some argue that it nullifies or at least reduces the perceived effectiveness of certain classes. Some are arguing that incarnate powers don't feel like rewards since they are childishly easy to obtain now.
 

There are a lot of points to take in here besides "yer takin' mah fun away" arguments. I for one think that a lot of these issues could be handled if Incarnate content was more difficult or simply grindier to obtain; this would reduce the saturation of these powers so we wouldn't see barrier spam or lore pets mopping up missions by themselves etc.

 

I'm glad incarnate stuff is fun. Hell, I really love being able to do higher difficulty content solo with it. But I sure do feel less useful on a team with 7 other incarnates spamming Ion every group of enemies..

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

As opposed to, what?
Modifying the entire mechanic of how Incarnates works?
Doing it some more to arbitrary badges?

Mine is essentially a basic yes/no query.

... nothing about what I suggested modifies anything but player behaviour, and that only temporarily to earn a badge. Much like "master of" runs for badges, which already exist. I think you need to go back and re-read exactly what I posted. Since it sounds like you're mixing my suggestion and those of others.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Greycat

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Yaliw said:

You are also arguing solely based on anecdotal measures of fun so... not a good counter point.

 

Correct.  Which, ironically, makes my point.

We shouldn't be modifying the game based on an arbitrary benchmark like "fun".

Because "fun" is different for EVERYONE.

If you can argue a technical reason or a QOL improvement, fine.

That's not what's being done.

[ShardWarrior]

2 hours ago, Yaliw said:

Some people clearly are annoyed that incarnate powers are used in content that is designed for non-incarnate characters.

Then use the tools readily available to you to form your own group, advertise for like-minded players and then run all the content you like without incarnate abilities.  Your problem is solved with zero development time.

 

2 hours ago, Yaliw said:

You are also arguing solely based on anecdotal measures of fun so... not a good counter point.

You are doing the same thing.  Your argument is that incarnate abilities are not "fun" being used on non-incarnate content. 

 

2 hours ago, Yaliw said:

 

There are a lot of points to take in here besides "yer takin' mah fun away" arguments.

Are you not using the same argument?

 

2 hours ago, Yaliw said:

I for one think that a lot of these issues could be handled if Incarnate content was more difficult or simply grindier to obtain; this would reduce the saturation of these powers so we wouldn't see barrier spam or lore pets mopping up missions by themselves etc.

 

No, all it would solve is to make incarnates available for those who can afford more playtime to farm for them. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Peacemoon]

8 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Then use the tools readily available to you to form your own group, advertise for like-minded players and then run all the content you like without incarnate abilities.  Your problem is solved with zero development time.

 

You are doing the same thing.  Your argument is that incarnate abilities are not "fun" being used on non-incarnate content. 

 

Are you not using the same argument?

 

 

No, all it would solve is to make incarnates available for those who can afford more playtime to farm for them. 

The main problem with your argument is players very rarely voluntarily give up power. At best most people would ask for something in return. Like ‘I give up incarnates for x’ - where x is some bonus reward or reward modifier which you trade your incarnates in for.

 

My answer would be +%merits. Which sounds good in paper but without incarnates it’ll take a lot longer so efficiency might be worse. But I think lower efficiency would be a price most would pay to play high level stuff without incarnate powers.

 

Also the benefit of this is the base ‘default game’ remains as is, and this is just an extra option to support other play preferences.

 

I think it’s a win/win, providing the devs can code it without too much of a headache. There are already challenge settings at the beginning of a TF so it would be adding extra options to that.

 

 

[Troo]

It seems to come down to: What level are incarnate powers available?

[ScarySai]

Crazy idea: Leave it alone and keep your awful alternative ideas to yourself.

[Taboo]

13 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Crazy idea: Leave it alone and keep your awful alternative ideas to yourself.

A  hole much?

[ScarySai]

4 minutes ago, Taboo said:

A  hole much?

Only "A-holes" here are the people who want to change how other people play an ancient MMO because they fancy themselves as armchair game designers.

 

Nothing wrong with the incarnates, if you don't like it, oh well.

[ShardWarrior]

4 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

The main problem with your argument is players very rarely voluntarily give up power.

Seems to me there are several people in these kinds of threads who would happily give up using their Incarnate abilities when playing with other like minded folk.  So PM each other, set up a group and go have all the fun you want the way you want.  Zero development time required and zero impact to anyone else.

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

The main problem with your argument is players very rarely voluntarily give up power. At best most people would ask for something in return. Like ‘I give up incarnates for x’ - where x is some bonus reward or reward modifier which you trade your incarnates in for.

 

So, you've met badgers, have you? 🙂

[Jaegernault]

On 3/26/2020 at 11:58 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

ugh i hate to agree with the OP's suggested nerf. but yeah everybody nuking all the time kinda trivializes the game. 

increase the difficulty then. Judgment is a good way to clear away minions or taunt one of those big rooms with multiple mobs. At maw power it will fry minions so what is argo'd is just the high value targets.

 

There were 4 new incarnate powers to be brought out, your saying you want to undo the entire system, so it stops at Invention Sets, why not remove that too so people cant alter global recharge and make unenhancable powers faster by improving global recharge.

 

Personally I hate it when I go in with a Melee character and a blaster follows me in and nukes the mob as soon as they gather, not enough to kill them but it knocks them all flying, they loose aggression with me and the blaster complains about crowd control. Im hardly gonna say to stop nuking them, ill adapt my playstyle while they are doing it.

 

If you dont like the incarnate powers, specify "no Incarnates on team" when you form one, others shouldnt have to have their game ruined to accommodate those that dont like a super power in a Super Hero MMO being super powerful. 

 

Can you imagine if Captain America told the hulk to stop smashing because he wants to look stronger in the fights, Or told Ironman to stop using his toys as if he didn't bring enough for everyone he cant use one either (fairly sure that statement did come up somewhere in the franchise lol!)

[srmalloy]

31 minutes ago, Jaegernault said:

Personally I hate it when I go in with a Melee character and a blaster follows me in and nukes the mob as soon as they gather, not enough to kill them but it knocks them all flying, they loose aggression with me and the blaster complains about crowd control. Im hardly gonna say to stop nuking them, ill adapt my playstyle while they are doing it.

The "pessimal playstyle" finger-pointing can go in lots of directions. One of my peeves is the team rushing up to a new spawn, and someone slaps down an AoE immobilize or hold as soon as they're in range, while the spawn is still scattered, so that the AoEs the rest of the team has can only get three or four mobs at a time, dragging out the process of clearing the spawn.

[Jaegernault]

23 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

The "pessimal playstyle" finger-pointing can go in lots of directions. One of my peeves is the team rushing up to a new spawn, and someone slaps down an AoE immobilize or hold as soon as they're in range, while the spawn is still scattered, so that the AoEs the rest of the team has can only get three or four mobs at a time, dragging out the process of clearing the spawn.

oh yea, that too! trigger happy control types, just take a breath before firing:D but we all play in our own way, the joys of so many players, dont like the team, go to a different one.

[Obus Form]

New idea:

 

Encourage Judgement powers during regular play

 

Seriously they need to encouraged on regular play it makes things more fun on groups because mobs need more exploding.  Make a second passive judgement power that auto casts every time you damage an enemy. Make global recharge also affect your click Judgement power (was it 2 min?) to greatly increase on-screen explosions so you can always use it every second of gameplay.  Currently not enough explosions:

Tankers deal slow damage so need passive auto casting Ion for maximum Argo Cap
Brutes need passive Void that auto cast every time they damage an enemy, and every time they don't.
Scrappers dealing damage and evading? Stupid.  Replace the AT passive with Vorpal judgement that auto cast once whenever enemies are selected.  Tab target to win.
Blaster's dealing damage by replacing every power with Pyronic with increasing radius.  T9 Fireblast is a Zone-wide fire alarm
Sentinels : Replace AT with passive pet buff at P2W vendor
Controllers : Removed from game due to inadequate explosions.
Stalker : Burst damage by replacing Assassin Strike with 5-in-1 power Fabulous Rainbow Judgement
Corruptor : Dealing Judgement while casting Judgement.  Scourge proc: Judgement Judgement!!
Defender : Buffing allies by debuffing enemy HP to 0.  Replace every power with Auto-Kill and flavour text "When you judge others, you don't define them, you define yourself."

Edited April 23, 2020 by Obus Form

[Peacemoon]

5 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Only "A-holes" here are the people who want to change how other people play an ancient MMO because they fancy themselves as armchair game designers.

 

Nothing wrong with the incarnates, if you don't like it, oh well.

You don’t need to be an armchair game designer to know that judgement is completely broken. How can Lore pets have a 900s cooldown and yet an AoE power that kills all minions and lieutenants (even at +3) is 90s? Did someone miss a zero? There is a reason it is so controversial, because people create entire characters like controllers, defenders and tankers to deal with those mobs that were just killed in 1 hit. So for them, it’s not fun. Not everyone plays a blaster, brute, or scrapper. 
 

So I actually like incarnates, even judgement, which is why I made a benign suggestion in here on how to compromise by creating more difficult game modes or options to remove judgement from a TF in exchange for something (heck, anything!). It wouldn’t effect anyone who didn’t opt in.
 

This ain’t some weird niche opinion, like you try to make out. People play games on hard modes all the time. Not everyone likes to play on very easy; they want a challenge. That’s why they make finely tuned characters. That’s why a lot of people play games on hard mode, or hardcore mode, or crushing mode, both on pc or console. You don’t buy a great car to drive around at 30mph forever. 
 

If anything CoH is an old game and plenty know what they’re doing. Creating some harder game modes to really challenge vets would be really fun. So an option to play without judgement would be well received, and there is scope for much more. It would make the game even better.
 

To be honest smug suggestions that people just form groups and order everyone to not use incarnate powers is either failing to understand human behaviour in the extreme, or a useless suggestion aimed to placate, fully aware it will do nothing. So I think I’ve said all I want to say on this topic.

[Gremlin]

On 4/2/2020 at 2:25 PM, golstat2003 said:

(I say that as I've yet to see anyone leave a team complaining "we are clearing mobs too fast, bye".) And as you said this is only at the higher levels. It's not even most of the game.

I wouldn't leave a TF or Trial for something like that because I feel that by joining I've made a commitment to stay to the end. But I'm definitely unwilling to join an 8 player ITF for exactly this reason.

 

On the other hand, the power creep means that I can solo and duo stuff that I wouldn't have dreamt of trying before incarnates. I quite enjoyed a 2 player ITF.

[Naraka]

7 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Only "A-holes" here are the people who want to change how other people play an ancient MMO because they fancy themselves as armchair game designers.

 

Nothing wrong with the incarnates, if you don't like it, oh well.

I can see another set of A-holes being people who take armchair game designers  tossing out ideas or criticism for a game they played a while back entirely too seriously and going around telling people to shut up.  I'd hardly point to just one group and tell them they are the only A-holes around when another obvious group would be ones shouting "No, you!" but then there could also be the group that float around waiting to make snarky comments about obviously wrong statements so they can "flex" on someone as being another possible group of A-holes (clarification: I'd be in that last group).

[Obus Form]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

I can see another set of A-holes....

Whenever I see a-hole, I avoid it.

[ShardWarrior]

3 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

You don’t need to be an armchair game designer to know that judgement is completely broken.

There is absolutely nothing preventing you from not using it all the time except for you.  This is not a "broken" power problem, it is a you problem.  You are not required to take any incarnate power just as you are not required to take any other power you do not want to use.  Again, people who dislike Judgement are victims of their own making.  Use the tools freely and readily available to you to find like minded players, form your groups and run all the content you like without slotting a single Incarnate ability.  Zero development time required and you can all enjoy the game the way you like while everyone who wants to keep incarnates can.  This is win win for everyone involved. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[ScarySai]

42 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 This is win win for everyone involved. 

"Ah, but my ridiculous notion of game balance must be brought to this total lost cause of a level bracket!"

 

 

To those in support of these changes: Nerf/change judgements and there will be another thing that trivializes these groups anyway. At the incarnate level, there are things that make judgement look like a joke. Are we going to change those next? Where do we draw the line, now that we've set precedent?

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by ScarySai

[reib]

I HATE lore Pets. Why everyone can have a pet? Make no sense, dont match with superhero feeling at all. It Is so stupid. My Dreams It Is cutting incarnates out of game completly. Especially the darn Lore...

Edited April 23, 2020 by reib

[ShardWarrior]

12 minutes ago, reib said:

I HATE lore Pets. Why everyone can have a pet? Make no sense, dont match with superhero feeling at all. It Is so stupid. My Dreams It Is cutting incarnates out of game completly. Especially the darn Lore...

There is nothing stopping you from doing this.  Do not create or slot any incarnate powers.  Team up with others like those in this very thread who agree with you and go have all the fun you want.  Your problem is solved.  Again, this is not a game problem, it is a you problem.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I guess Ill have to spell out a few things that have not really seemed to sink in for some yet.

 

So a CoH character that is a finely tuned lvl 50 with all the sets they want to do what they do best, with all their incarnate powers unlocked is a Completed character. The proverbial You have won the game character.

 

All those sets, thats like having BiS rarest of the rare raid loot in an MMO like WoW.  When you have all that the only time a game has challenge is whena  new level cap and raid comes out, and your BiS gear is instantly inferior to the common new gear a few levels up. We here at CoH I am pretty sure hate that constant goal post shift in finishing our toons. The altaholic nature of this game and HCs making them much easier to complete seem to be very on the nose with what most of us playing here want.

 

Now look at how Live approached incarnates. Each new slot had new trials that forced and funneled players together into content many did not really want to do. HC team has done away with that. Even if they add new incarnate powers for the missing slots, it seems unlikely even if they add new trials with them, that they will be a requirement, and thus only large team minded players are likely to bother with them, so that then leads to would it be worth the time to even make that content for our volunteer team for a population small enough very few would even engage with that content.

 

Accept that when your characters are done they are the bloody best of the best, a team of such heroes should make doing the day saving a walk in the park. We are the bloody JLA at that point not year one X Men, not the bloody Doom Patrol.

 

Content is for leveling, the content for above that truly optional ITrials that lets face it few of us bother with on HC and only did on Live because it was a must.