New class?

[Figuremeout]

Hey there, I was talking in general chat, and a lot of the people on at the time said that this was a pretty good idea. So I thought I would pitch it here.

 

A support/support class. ((so FF and Time manipulation, or empathy/dark affinity, or Kinetic/Time...))

 

A lot of the people said it would be a group only class, but that's why we have the MMO right? And if someone wants to play a hardcore support class, why not let them?

 

Just food for thought!

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Greetings Figure,

this was requested quite a bit during live. There were 2 hurtles then and there are 3 hurtles now.

 

1. Balance: this would make a team ridiculously OP, for example a Force field/thermal would easily cap the entire teams DEF and RESISTS + have heals buffs/debuff and a rez.

2. This new AT would require a team at all times unless they made power pool attack powers stronger & even then ugh.... Teaming should be optional not mandatory.

3. People easily steamroll meta through  almost everything so support isn't as heavily required anymore (excluding Hami)

 

If this was implemented id make a second account just to have a buffer in my pocket for my farmer, imagine how fast you'd clear a map with both Fortitude and Forge on.

 

 

[Chris24601]

In terms of new classes; I’d rather see a stretch of existing concepts instead.

 

So, for example, people have long requested a melee/support (or support/melee) AT, but rather than some completely new AT; what if you made some melee sets (or hybrid melee/ranged sets) for defenders and corruptors that they could choose instead of the existing ranged sets?

 

There’d then be no need to balance an entire new AT and come up with new inherent mechanics; just to balance the melee power set’s performance with the ranged sets for the AT.

 

I got the idea from the realization that one reason a Sentinel feels a bit gimped is that claws or kinetic melee scrappers with the blaze or mu mastery can pull off a competent ranged/armor build with a full ranged attack chain (40’ ranged high damage, 80’ ranged, ranged cone, ranged AoE, ranged hold and either a snipe or ranged immobilize) and a solid AT inherent without having to sacrifice damage like a Sentinel does to get its ranged attacks.

 

It made me wonder if a Sentinel rework shouldn’t just be a slightly variant scrapper in terms of actual numbers and if the Sentinel shouldn’t have really just been some more close range-focused sets for the scrapper (ex. an assault rifle set that included a stock strike and bayonet attack plus build-up and confront, then some 40-60’ ranged attacks including a ranged cone or two).

 

It’s a little late to go back on the Sentinel AT (other than to fix its numbers in relation to the performance of, say, a claws scrapper with thd mu epic), but that doesn’t mean we can’t learn from the experience with the Sentinel and not make the same mistake with other ATs that might not need to be a whole new thing, but just stretching the concept of an existing AT a bit.

[Burnt Toast]

That would be an absolutely boring combo. How would you "arrest" anything?

The whole point behind CoH is that you can play solo or in a group with any AT/powerset. 

Them telling you it was a good idea... is a great example of why I have already removed GENERAL from my chat tabs.

[Troo]

I can see how some folks would be interested in playing a support only character. It would be a balance nightmare. Either this new combo would be terribly weak or break the game.

[Grouchybeast]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

I can see how some folks would be interested in playing a support only character. It would be a balance nightmare. Either this new combo would be terribly weak or break the game.

That's unfair.  I bet it could manage to do both!

[Troo]

How could a kin/emp or FF/kin exist without a balance issues?

 

I'm open to hearing more, but with all the power creep requests that fly around. I'm cautious and even if it is a cool idea, I'll try and point out why it might be challenging to make work.

[Blastit]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

I can see how some folks would be interested in playing a support only character. It would be a balance nightmare. Either this new combo would be terribly weak or break the game.

In this particular environment I'm not sure how much it would matter. For minmaxers... Well, ok, you've now got one team dude with double support instead of the previous two team dudes with support/blast. Is that a major difference? Would seven support/support dudes and one brute be stronger than seven defenders and one brute? Minmaxers already are decked out enough in IO sets and incarnate powers that you don't exactly need a lot of buffs to cap most everything. For more casual players all you'd get is a defender that's infinitely worse at soloing than defenders were at release. Just dogshit-wet-punching a single minion for several minutes. If you've got a playgroup to level you or get farmed you're rewarded with, well, probably being a sufficiently impactful team member depending on how IO'd your buddies are. But you're kind of just a buffbot.

 

 

Mainly I view this as a pure playstyle thing. And to that I say that, no matter how noble it is to want to provide a playstyle for as many people as possible, there just shouldn't be an AT that outright lacks any way of causing damage other than brawl and power pools. Even controllers had damage components in their holds and immobs from the start, before they got Containment. And people complained about them being way too slow to solo! Storm/storm would admittedly be funny but it feels like too much of a sandbox server sort of thing.

[Figuremeout]

Still, I am a person who this playstyle would appeal to. And like Blastit said, it wouldn't be too broken. if 6 defenders and 2 brutes got together, it would be the same as 3 of the new class and 2 brutes, opening up spots for... more brutes? something else? It wouldn't be cheese since everyone's steamrolling everything anyhow (your guys' words, not mine.)

 

[biostem]

I, personally, would like to see something like an AT that uses blaster manipulation sets, (barring tactical arrow since it lacks attacks), paired with support sets.  I'd also like to see a set that, perhaps, uses a set comprised of some melee attacks and armor powers + MM pets for the other set, (or perhaps replace the direct attacks in the MM sets with the armor powers, and have the other power set be melee ones).

Edited April 12, 2020 by biostem

[Hjarki]

This would be a bit like having an Armor/Armor archetype. Yes, I love my Super Reflexes/Willpower build, but it's awfully tough to win any fights with just Boxing and Flurry.

[SwitchFade]

Imagine the clickiness and micromanaging of kin paired with electric affinity...

 

No thanks.

[thunderforce]

I think this would be a mistake.

 

Something that is very noticeable is that the City of Villains archetypes are all solo-friendly whereas the City of Heroes archetypes are mostly not, part of the way that at launch City of Heroes believed in enforced teaming (arch-villains turning up even when solo, go and kill stuff in Perez at level 7, etc) but this idea was rightly backed away from.

 

This was even more true at release; tankers could easily be practically immortal solo but had to tickle everything to death, controllers could lock everything down with ease but had to tickle everything to death, defenders... yep, tickling time, especially since if you ever do team you want to get all the good powers from your primary in along with, probably, Stamina and your travel power pre-requisite. We raise an eyebrow now at a defender with one attack, but at launch, a defender whose primary has no bad powers and who takes them all gets their second attack at level 24.

 

Blasters, of course, were in a different boat - no tickling, but no self-sustain and any time you get mezzed, comedy ensues. Even warshades and peacebringers got bonuses from teammates and special enemies they found it (very, originally) hard to beat themselves; VEATs get pseudo-Leadership that works for them.

 

Hence, I think a support-only AT like this would be a large retrograde step; a newbie trap akin to "I'll be a healer".

Edited April 12, 2020 by thunderforce

[Pzn]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I, personally, would like to see something like an AT that uses blaster manipulation sets, (barring tactical arrow since it lacks attacks), paired with support sets.  I'd also like to see a set that, perhaps, uses a set comprised of some melee attacks and armor powers + MM pets for the other set, (or perhaps replace the direct attacks in the MM sets with the armor powers, and have the other power set be melee ones).

I think that dominator assault sets would be perfect for this kind of AT.  Assault/Support or Support/Assault.  A lot of the blaster manipulations sets have too few attacks.  Maybe some combination of manipulation sets and assault sets could work.

[ABlueThingy]

A pure support/support, as is, would be a bad idea methinks.  Maybe this would work if you split the existing support sets in two?

 

Like Radiation Assist and Radiation Protect? 

 

"Assist" would have several rad melee powers and some Rad emission, the debuff portions.  You could tweak them to work more fluidly too, get contaminate for free off anyone you're toggle debuffing.

"Protect" would have several rad armor powers and the heals/buffs from Rad emission and you could use things like the rez on yourself if you died.

 

Now just set their Melee mod to around Tanker and buff/debuff mods to be around say... Mastermind level? Is Corrupter too much? Armor numbers can be around Scrapper. Give them a bar that fills when they or their allies take damage that raises that gives +damage and +special.  Encourages them to wade into melee to get the most out of all those powers.  That should work for just spitballing.

 

Doesn't step on any other AT too much.  Don't have enough armor powers or melee powers to step on scrap/tank/stalk/brute and don't have out of the box high enough support/control to push out def/cor/mm/cont.

 

You'd have to get inventive for some of the sets like Empathy.  But I could see a "Sympathetic Assist" set that let you tag foes so if they hit you they take damage.  Or hit an ally?  Or maybe the attacks are charged by using Absorb Pain? I dunno.

 

But you could just build to only take the support powers out of both and be the Emp/FF you always wanted.  Which in this context would be... healing + shielding?  So then an FF/Emp would be KD/Control + Buffs?  Something like that?

 

[Solarverse]

God no more classes, please. Sentinels didn't work out so well and honestly the game never needed them, the last thing I personally want to see is yet another class that I feel the game doesn't need. We have too many classes that are similar as is IMO. We still don't even have Sents balanced right, and to be honest, I don't think they can be balanced right. Adding another class to the game will just bring us more unbalanced issues and more things for people to complain about.

Just my opinion.

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

That would be an absolutely boring combo. How would you "arrest" anything?

The whole point behind CoH is that you can play solo or in a group with any AT/powerset. 

Them telling you it was a good idea... is a great example of why I have already removed GENERAL from my chat tabs.

That was not always the case. To be honest I miss when CoH was all about teaming and playing Solo wasn't exactly the ideal way to play.  😞

Edited April 12, 2020 by Solarverse

[Haijinx]

Well at least this is different than the Support/Melee everyone else proposes. 

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Well at least this is different than the Support/Melee everyone else proposes. 

Yeah, I hear ya. Trust me, I'm not on that bandwagon either, heh. My opinion usually differs from most other people's though. So take anything I say with a grain of salt.

[Joshex]

First off, we call them ATs or archetypes not classes.

 

a support support archetype.

 

Second, there is a reason there is no such AT. unlike in other MMOs each AT is designed to be able to solo content at some difficulty even if it takes them a few tries.. with limited to no attacks this becomes impossible. in otherwords the AT may work in WoW where the holy trinity of ATs is a core to their system. but here.. it'd just be dysfunctional.

 

Besides the support primary or secondary is enough. it's built to be enough. All that power in one place to leave room for something else in the other powerset.

[MTeague]

I don't think a support/support making the team "too OP" is a big deal. I mean, you could just invite... two corruptors. or one defender and one mastermind.  Or some controllers.  team would have the same support powers buffing them / debuffing enemies either way.

 

I DO think the fact that this AT would be absolutely HELPLESS on it's own is a heavy strike against it.

Yes, I know about Procs.  So, maybe you could do a support/support double proc monster.  

But if that's the only possible way you could defeat anything, it's a pretty sad excuse for an AT.

 

Now, options are still exactly that....options.  If it's created, I can just.... not play it.  And I wouldn't. 

So I can't totally say "This must never exist" if other people like the idea.  what I find fun is not always what other people find fun.

 

I wouldn't vote AGAINST such an AT.

But I sure as hell wouldn't vote FOR it, either.

[Burnt Toast]

4 hours ago, Solarverse said:

That was not always the case. To be honest I miss when CoH was all about teaming and playing Solo wasn't exactly the ideal way to play.  😞

City has always been about the option to solo...which is why every AT CAN solo... 

CoH is still mainly a team oriented game.... I think in the entirety of CoH I have MAYBE soloed 20 missions... out of boredom. 

[Solarverse]

13 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

City has always been about the option to solo...which is why every AT CAN solo... 

Yes sir, I agree. I was careful not to say that it couldn't be soloed, but rather wasn't exactly the ideal way to play.  🙂  This is a very welcomed clarification though, thank you.

13 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

CoH is still mainly a team oriented game.... I think in the entirety of CoH I have MAYBE soloed 20 missions... out of boredom. 

Same here, if nothing is really going on that I'm interested in or if I don't feel like creating a team, that's usually my time to log on one of my MM's and running some solo play....which like yourself, is pretty rare.

[thunderforce]

17 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

City has always been about the option to solo...which is why every AT CAN solo...

I think that's a bit of a rose-tinted view, I'm afraid. In the early years of the game, what do you do when Dr Vahzilok turns up, an archvillain, at level 20? If you are lucky or have a rich alt you are fully slotted with DOs, and just under half your power picks have gone on Fitness and a travel power and its pre-requisite.

 

For bonus points, imagine a) you're a controller b) you don't have a rich alt and c) your power picks didn't go on that because your build is bad because you are new, and there is absolutely no way to get a respec until level 24 at the very earliest.

 

Damage him? You might as well lick your monitor in the hope he will drown.

 

I think much of the original design is as close to enforced teaming as you can get without actually making it literally compulsory (the bits where it is compulsory aside); and in particular three out of the five original ATs are somewhere between terrible and dull solo depending on powersets and level.

Edited April 13, 2020 by thunderforce

[Burnt Toast]

9 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

I think that's a bit of a rose-tinted view, I'm afraid. In the early years of the game, what do you do when Dr Vahzilok turns up, an archvillain, at level 20? If you are lucky or have a rich alt you are fully slotted with DOs, and just under half your power picks have gone on Fitness and a travel power and its pre-requisite.

 

For bonus points, imagine a) you're a controller b) you don't have a rich alt and c) your power picks didn't go on that because your build is bad because you are new, and there is absolutely no way to get a respec until level 24 at the very earliest.

 

Damage him? You might as well lick your monitor in the hope he will drown.

 

I think much of the original design is as close to enforced teaming as you can get without actually making it literally compulsory (the bits where it is compulsory aside); and in particular three out of the five original ATs are somewhere between terrible and dull solo depending on powersets and level.

I never said it would be fast or fun.... BUT you COULD. Listing a few missions or instances does not mean one could not solo the other 99% of the content. The point of the post before people jumped into the "what about X" semantics is that the game was made with the option that every character could do solo or team content. Even towards the end the dev team was still trying to add solo content for players (See new Dark Astoria). 

MANY toons would find soloing an AV difficult, but that doesn't mean the other 99% of the game couldn't be soloed by that AT/character.