Energy Melee - Does not need

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Super Atom said:

I don't think you're quite understanding. It's not about anyone wanting anything, the way the game has gone AOE has become priority and sets that didn't quite do it well fell behind. EM has some of the worst AOE of any melee set which is why the general urge is to increase whirling hands / make stun cone. It has -nothing- to do with personal feelings or opinion. It's entirely numbers based. The mechanic thing is opinion based. ET being reverted is also relatively opinion based but most people agree it'd be better off with the old animation which was changed for PVP reasons in the first place.

 

That's why the "only reverting the animation won't fix the problem" is important, because just increasing your general DPS in ST isn't going to fix the numerical disadvantage EM is facing in current CoH.

 

Also before its even said; This isn't about making EM OP or anything. Nobody is saying make whirling hands an aoe TF. It's not even really that -big- of an increase in damage either.

 

Yes, but not everyone cares about EM even being in the running for AOE.  I was always fine with EM's level of AOE.  It had an animation I loved, and it was enough AOE for me.  I didn't need to finish a mission at top speed like others feel they have to, or be an AOE farm machine.

 

I can live with the ST focus.

 

This isn't to say AOE isn't nice, love it on my Dual Pistols, but seeing as how I use StJ on a Scrapper with just Spinning Strike for AOE (no cross punch), I don't generally worry about AOE.

[Super Atom]

12 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Yes, but not everyone cares about EM even being in the running for AOE.  I was always fine with EM's level of AOE.  It had an animation I loved, and it was enough AOE for me.  I didn't need to finish a mission at top speed like others feel they have to, or be an AOE farm machine.

 

I can live with the ST focus.

 

This isn't to say AOE isn't nice, love it on my Dual Pistols, but seeing as how I use StJ on a Scrapper with just Spinning Strike for AOE (no cross punch), I don't generally worry about AOE.

I'm sure you can, because spinning strike does more than 20 base damage than whirling hands, though i'm glad you've mentioned that because thats exactly what people are looking for. A small increase so it's capable of being your only option, you'll still be ST focused but your AoE won't be literally bottom tier. It also won't out pace AoE sets because they have more than 1 option, so they don't get left behind by EM. Balance is wonderful isn't it? 😄

Edited September 22, 2020 by Super Atom

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

While they had a formula, wasn't their idea, to also not be tied to that formula?

 

We hear that a lot.  "Oh, this power over does this formula" but I recall that being a guideline more than a set in stone rule.  Not to mention, the secondary effects would then have to weigh in on it.  Why would something with a better secondary effect not do less damage than the one with a better secondary effect?

The rule of thumb is if an attack has no secondary effect (which happens to be the case for most claws attacks), they get a 20% recharge reduction discount (so their damage uses the full recharge, but the true recharge is reduced). As for Spin, it is so well above the damage formula, I suspect a typo happened, or an Area Modifier calculation was done wrong. Something. I seriously took every single justification approach to see how they could get its damage to be 1.89 when the damage formula suggests it should be 1.436 scale (using 17.5s recharge, where 14s is 80% of 17.5s). Being 31.6% stronger than the formula appears to be an accident. Afterall, Claws isn't exactly lacking in AoE for the set, so it's not like a 1-AoE only buff up (like Foot Stomp). I thought, well...maybe they are using the experimental formula where they took the animation time into account. There are a few of these formulas out there, but the simplest was a formula of:

 

Damage Modifier = 2 x Cast Time / (1.5 + Cast Time).

 

This formula basically used a 1.5s cast time as a median, and if your cast time was longer you would do more damage. If it was shorter, you would do less damage. Granted, this isn't actually used in design (currently), but if it had at the time, that Damage Modifier would be:

 

DM = 2 x 2.5 / (1.5 + 2.5) = 1.25

 

31.6% is greater than 25%, so even factoring in an experimental formula that is not used currently in the design formula STILL has Spin doing more damage than it should. So something is off.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

I'm sure you can, because spinning strike does more than 20 base damage than whirling hands, though i'm glad you've mentioned that because thats exactly what people are looking for. A small increase so it's capable of being your only option, you'll still be ST focused but your AoE won't be literally bottom tier. It also won't out pace AoE sets because they have more than 1 option, so they don't get left behind by EM. Balance is wonderful isn't it? 😄

While on topic with my previous replies of damage formulas, Whirling Hands is simply an underperformer in that area. It does 1.00 scale damage, yet an 8 ft radius PBAoE with a 14s recharge SHOULD be doing 1.182 scale damage. So that extra 18.2% damage would be nice to have added to the set, especially if the set's only AoE is this underperforming attack.

[tidge]

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

Yes, but not everyone cares about EM even being in the running for AOE.  I was always fine with EM's level of AOE.  It had an animation I loved, and it was enough AOE for me.  I didn't need to finish a mission at top speed like others feel they have to, or be an AOE farm machine.

 

I can live with the ST focus.

I think @BrandX has nicely identified the core point about this thread's title, and the point that is missed by several participants. There aren't many 'Orthodox Energy Melee' players who are asking for a re-imagining of a set we already enjoy. A limited number of numerical (and if possible, animation) tweaks is all we are asking for.

 

Beyond such changes, and the proposals are essentially another set. The only proposal I've read for a change to the set's powers (other than numerical/animation) that I think doesn't fall into the overhaul category is swapping the T1/T2 powers for Tankers. I will admit I haven't put much thought into this one (I assume it is either to have a more-optimized attack chain at higher levels with fewer power choice, or something to do with %proc-ability) but I am generally open to such ideas. The one aspect that makes me skeptical is that /EM was originally a secondary ONLY (Tankers) and so any imbalance issues that come from making it a primary for (original) CoV ATs have an aged history.

 

After that suggestion, I don't see the proposed changes so much as a 'slippery slope' but more as a Wile E. Coyote no longer standing on firm ground:

 

1) Replacing Stun: As I wrote earlier, Stun had a place in the game (solo Tankers, especially while leveling). I concede that later additions to the game (Live and Homecoming) had made it less necessary for a solo Tanker to rely on Stun.  I think the situation with the EM Stun is similar as to Placate on Stalkers/VEATs (in the Homecoming version of the game): Both are powers that can serve a purpose for players, but neither serves the purpose of defeat-as-many-as-possible-as-fast-as-possible, and as power choices each basically gets in the way of an 'optimized' build.

 

2) Adding AoE attacks: There should be very few players who don't recognize that standard 'rewards per unit time' (XP, Inf, Drops) don't improve with defeat-as-many-as-possible-as-fast-as-possible, and that AoE damaging attacks are the mechanism to achieve that... yet the nature of the game (especially on Homecoming, where rewards are easy to come by) is such that not every Melee class has to be generalist with multiple AoE. Even if the DPS math may not in their favor: EM Melee Ats can get more AoE (attacks/control) from Power/Ancillary/Patron pools... if they want them.

 

3) Adding combination gimmicks: These are a hallmark of later power sets: as fun as it may be to spitball new combinations, adding such things to an original power set would make it a different set than classic Energy Melee. Please feel free to propose a completely new set with the proposals, and let the proposed new set stand on its own merits.

[Vanden]

5 hours ago, Bopper said:

As for Spin, it is so well above the damage formula, I suspect a typo happened, or an Area Modifier calculation was done wrong. Something. I seriously took every single justification approach to see how they could get its damage to be 1.89 when the damage formula suggests it should be 1.436 scale (using 17.5s recharge, where 14s is 80% of 17.5s). Being 31.6% stronger than the formula appears to be an accident.

The Claws rabbit hole goes even deeper than that! That's the Brute and Tanker version of Spin you're looking at, the Scrapper version is likely even more out of line. And have a look at Shockwave some time, then compare it to attacks like Howl or Energy Torrent from actual ranged attack sets.

[Bill Z Bubba]

29 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The Claws rabbit hole goes even deeper than that! That's the Brute and Tanker version of Spin you're looking at, the Scrapper version is likely even more out of line. And have a look at Shockwave some time, then compare it to attacks like Howl or Energy Torrent from actual ranged attack sets.

Either you or @Bopperhave the cast time corrected equations that were used for the claws overhaul?

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I think @BrandX has nicely identified the core point about this thread's title, and the point that is missed by several participants. There aren't many 'Orthodox Energy Melee' players who are asking for a re-imagining of a set we already enjoy. A limited number of numerical (and if possible, animation) tweaks is all we are asking for.

 

Beyond such changes, and the proposals are essentially another set. The only proposal I've read for a change to the set's powers (other than numerical/animation) that I think doesn't fall into the overhaul category is swapping the T1/T2 powers for Tankers. I will admit I haven't put much thought into this one (I assume it is either to have a more-optimized attack chain at higher levels with fewer power choice, or something to do with %proc-ability) but I am generally open to such ideas. The one aspect that makes me skeptical is that /EM was originally a secondary ONLY (Tankers) and so any imbalance issues that come from making it a primary for (original) CoV ATs have an aged history.

 

After that suggestion, I don't see the proposed changes so much as a 'slippery slope' but more as a Wile E. Coyote no longer standing on firm ground:

 

1) Replacing Stun: As I wrote earlier, Stun had a place in the game (solo Tankers, especially while leveling). I concede that later additions to the game (Live and Homecoming) had made it less necessary for a solo Tanker to rely on Stun.  I think the situation with the EM Stun is similar as to Placate on Stalkers/VEATs (in the Homecoming version of the game): Both are powers that can serve a purpose for players, but neither serves the purpose of defeat-as-many-as-possible-as-fast-as-possible, and as power choices each basically gets in the way of an 'optimized' build.

 

2) Adding AoE attacks: There should be very few players who don't recognize that standard 'rewards per unit time' (XP, Inf, Drops) don't improve with defeat-as-many-as-possible-as-fast-as-possible, and that AoE damaging attacks are the mechanism to achieve that... yet the nature of the game (especially on Homecoming, where rewards are easy to come by) is such that not every Melee class has to be generalist with multiple AoE. Even if the DPS math may not in their favor: EM Melee Ats can get more AoE (attacks/control) from Power/Ancillary/Patron pools... if they want them.

 

3) Adding combination gimmicks: These are a hallmark of later power sets: as fun as it may be to spitball new combinations, adding such things to an original power set would make it a different set than classic Energy Melee. Please feel free to propose a completely new set with the proposals, and let the proposed new set stand on its own merits.

Readjust your thinking a bit to the reality of the situation.

 

1. Classic EM died with the nerf.  Thats reality.

 

Furthermore classic EM wouldn't even balance to be worthy enough in the current melee field by simply adjusting animation changes.  It was at best 2 good powers and 1 slow one.

 

2. Nerfed (current) EM needs adjustment upwards - currently it's still playable, still strong, but slow with little utility in a fast paced team.

 

You can either see the adjustment when it happens as either good or bad.

 

For me I will be weighing the adjustment with a few criteria in mind.

 

It should be the king of ST damage.  There should be no other close.

 

Does it recapture the nostalgic feel of classic EM?  This one is important but it can't be the only one deciding factor.

 

Does it modernize EM to function in a competitive melee field or fast paced team environment?  This is probably the most subjective point, but also probably the most important to the set as a whole.

 

If points 1 and 2 are met, then point 3 is icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not looking for a remake either, but it needs more than animation tweaks.

 

Given the tanker changes I believe HC can pull off all 3 and we should be grateful they are doing anything to make the set better.

[Golden Azrael]

I keep going back to my Energy Melee / Invul' 'plodder' and it's currently at L40.

 

19.blob defence.  (Surrounded by a few mobs 35% and one luck from capping.)

82.blob res'.

 

Not bad.

 

Tier 1-3 attacks.  Whirling.  Stun.  ET so far.  (I took Man's at L38 not TF.)

 

And I look at the Stun.  (A nice posey animation.). But I wonder if something like Atom Smasher would be a better animation.  Turn it into a AoE dis'/moderate-high damage attack.

 

Or.  An alt idea.  Something like Rad' Cloud's pulsing choke.  But it disorients sporadically instead.  With a moderate DoT.

 

My other points are the previously mentioned 'try out the energy builder' for damage mechanic for this tank.

 

And see if we can align the Pom Poms/Short ET as 'alt' choices in the character/power builder creation tool.

 

It could still be played old school (after all, you don't have to press the buttons that light up...) and add a bit of interest to make the set more compelling.

 

Azrael.

 

PS.  I have tried out a maxed out Energy Invul tank on the beta vs a Rad'/Titans.  And the latter seemed to bury the 'old school' tank.

 

TWs may get a nerf.  But not sure undoing EM's 'live' nerf is going to be enough.   HC seem a bit more thoughtful than that.

 

PPS.  I've played an EM/Elec Shield brute.  And in that.  I see glimpses of what the 'old school' EM fans want.  And I see what progressives may want to.  It hits hard.  Then it starts to hit really hard.  Then it absolutely trucks hard.  And the DoT punishes surrounding mobs.  On an even con basis I like what I'm getting from that Brute.

 

I'd like some of that duality of mother trucker with another creative AoE.

 

There's no reason why we can't just try these things on beta.  

 

I'd rather try something by playing and testing it.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[BrandX]

7 hours ago, Super Atom said:

I'm sure you can, because spinning strike does more than 20 base damage than whirling hands, though i'm glad you've mentioned that because thats exactly what people are looking for. A small increase so it's capable of being your only option, you'll still be ST focused but your AoE won't be literally bottom tier. It also won't out pace AoE sets because they have more than 1 option, so they don't get left behind by EM. Balance is wonderful isn't it? 😄

 

Some aren't worried about it, and those that are, look to be of the idea that if they can't farm with it, it must be bad.

 

I like the idea of a ST focused set, that has me taking down targets quick enough, I don't care about the lack of AOE.  🙂

 

Mind you, I'm sure there are other sets that are pretty single target focused and should be in the running, and Fire Melee's whole concept is damage, so it should be up there.  Though I'm sure such things as secondary effects would play an effect too.

[Golden Azrael]

I've noticed the weekly topic specifics re: Energy Melee.

 

ET does Stamina return rather than - health.  Ergo.  Energy Mastery.  (Make sense.)

Stun does damage eg. Cobra Strike style. (I'd like an Atomic Smasher style AoE stun.)

TF does splash damage.  (Sounds good to me.)

 

Others.

 

Shorten the animation times of the obvious offenders.  (Fine by me.  I like the Pom Poms.  Just speed it and TF up?)

Increase Whirling Hands crop circle.

 

I don't see anything on that list that is too offensive.

 

I'm still hoping the whole set gets a damage boost.  (And somewhat hopeful that we could 'beta test' the Energy Builder mechanic from the Dominator.)

 

Azrael.

[Troo]

Terrible ideas for Energy Melee:

 

Stunned targets provide bonus damage opportunities.

• So, if we're not hitting a stunned target the damage is lower. Pay attention or we're doing less damage than we could.
• Radiation has this, it is a bit difficult to track which target... folks mostly ignore it. We let the AoEs do what their gonna do.
• Can't we just do dependable damage all the time? I concede this may not push the current top damage dealers and am okay with that.

 

Combo Power Up. (charge and release)

• Powers a, b, & c can result in a charge that can be used to provide ideal performance in powers X & Y.
• If we don't do the a, b, or c we don't get the X or Y.
• X & Y are not available in or near their ideal state all of the time. Maybe not even most of the time.
• If we play the way the designer requires we can optimize the opportunities. If we don't wanna play that way too bad. /em puke
• This means we're required to take the charge up powers and use them. Want them or not and they need to hit.

• No unslotted ter 1 throwaways. We HAVE to use it. You didn't want that tier 2.. you might miss out.
• We may not get to select flavor from pool powers do to the charge builders that could have been skipped now being required.
• Slotting variety could also become more limited.
• If this used only three powers in the set and worked every time, exactly the way I play this isn't so bad. But I have to imagine someone out there wants to play differently than I do.

 

Energy Melee should be more interesting

1. /em doublefacepalm

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

1. Classic EM died with the nerf.  Thats reality.

It didn't die. It's right there on the shelf next to @Captain Powerhouse.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Either you or @Bopperhave the cast time corrected equations that were used for the claws overhaul?

I don't know the equations used on claws, if one was used (I have patch notes that suggest they did at one time use it). I do have 4 equations that they might have used and I provided one of them earlier. The others get much more complicated, but in my opinion are better (similar curves, but less radical falloff and diminished gains at the extremes).

Edited September 22, 2020 by Bopper

[Infinitum]

22 minutes ago, Troo said:

It didn't die. It's right there on the shelf next to @Captain Powerhouse.

That isnt classic 1 trick pony EM.

 

Thats modern post nerfoclypse EM.

[Lines]

35 minutes ago, Troo said:

Combo Power Up. (charge and release)

Your concerns don't really reflect how the dom mechanic works. The way it works on Energy Assault is every single target attack used on a stunned enemy has a chance to proc the boost to a few powers (iirc: bone smasher, whirling hands and power burst.) Total Focus will always give the boost.

 

You can absolute skip or not enhance powers you don't want, since they all can contribute. It's perfectly workable if you just ignore it.

 

I don't know how directly it would port over to EM and work, but I think the impact would be a lot less than you should worry about.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Lines

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I don't know the equations used on claws, if one was used (I have patch notes that suggest they did at one time use it). I do have 4 equations that they might have used and I provided one of them earlier. The others get much more complicated, but in my opinion are better (similar curves, but less radical falloff and diminished gains at the extremes).

Roger that. Just found it. I'm not sure what happened back then anymore either. I once had all the notes but they went poof along with all my attack chain spreadsheets. If I'm going to be honest, based on what happened on beta with BZB and a pylon, and the rework they had to do because of it and other testing, a bad AoE calc makes sense.

 

Edit: Just want to throw this in... (and, no, this is not in any way directed at Bopper) Claws is my favorite melee attack set. And yet I'm ok with a nerf if it means that the underlying equations gain balance and equity.

This comes from me not being in the "screw you, I got mine" camp of life.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[HelBlaiz]

I dont think anyone here would be against adding more buffs to the set if reverting nerfs didn't do enough to help the set find a niche as a single target contender. We're  just arguing that any changes to improve the set should start from the point in its career when it was at its best. From there, we can talk about buffing WH to perform where it should, addressing Stun, etc.

 

I personally love the disorient secondary effect, but I will agree it isn't all that great against EBs and AVs, which would be nice for a ST ser.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

I don't know how directly it would port over to EM and work, but I think the impact would be a lot less than you should worry about.

You have a good point.

 

The less impact definitely the better from my perspective. Minor edit and we're closer in agreement "but I think the impact should be a lot less than we need worry about ."

 

I think you'd still agree that it could be limiting and a concern if the case was: If we don't do the a, b, or c we don't get the X or Y.

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Troo

[Lines]

Just now, Troo said:

You have a good point.

 

The less impact definitely the better from my perspective. Minor edit and we're closer in agreement "but I think IF the impact would be a lot less than you should worry about."

 

I think you'd still agree that it could be limiting and a concern if the case was: If we don't do the a, b, or c we don't get the X or Y.

 

For sure, if EM adopted the Street Justice mechanic verbatim, then I will personally lend you my torch and pitchfork. It's just not the nature of the set.

 

But as it happens, the particular mechanic that may or may not be on the table is pretty tame.

[Super Atom]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Some aren't worried about it, and those that are, look to be of the idea that if they can't farm with it, it must be bad.

 

I like the idea of a ST focused set, that has me taking down targets quick enough, I don't care about the lack of AOE.  🙂

 

Mind you, I'm sure there are other sets that are pretty single target focused and should be in the running, and Fire Melee's whole concept is damage, so it should be up there.  Though I'm sure such things as secondary effects would play an effect too.

What a ridiculous sentiment. You're just assuming bad things about people to dismiss their points of view because you don't care. Thankfully the under performance evidence isn't in your favor.

[Troo]

53 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Edit: Just want to throw this in... (and, no, this is not in any way directed at Bopper) Claws is my favorite melee attack set. And yet I'm ok with a nerf if it means that the underlying equations gain balance and equity.

This comes from me not being in the "screw you, I got mine" camp of life.

checks hell's temperature..

[Super Atom]

55 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

This comes from me not being in the "screw you, I got mine" camp of life.

This thread in a nut shell. If It's not people who just don't care about balance it's people afraid of change so bad they make stuff up and refuse to listen to anyone about how anything works and continue to spread misinformation to scare others.

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Troo said:

checks hell's temperature..

Stygia says, "wut?"

[HelBlaiz]

9 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

This thread in a nut shell. If It's not people who just don't care about balance it's people afraid of change so bad they make stuff up and refuse to listen to anyone about how anything works and continue to spread misinformation to scare others.

Who is spreading misinformation?