Remove Personal Force Field from Fake Nemesis

[SwitchFade]

Welcome! I must say...

 

/Jnovote

 

Nemmies are just fine as is. PFF owns you.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

This isn't about "instant gratification." This isn't a matter of me complaining that I can't kill Nems fast enough. This is me complaining about a power that serves literally no purpose whatsoever but to stall and waste time.

It doesn't give Nemesis an advantage in a battle, since they cannot attack with it on.

It doesn't make the fight more difficult, because it literally stalls the conflict with no way around it.

It doesn't serve any purpose at all. It's literally just "stop playing for 20 seconds because I said so." What part of this are you not understanding?

Read my previous posts. I do not mind when enemies pop outrageous defense powers. I have no issue with Paragon Protectors when they activate Moment of Glory, because Moment of Glory actually serves a purpose. It makes them harder to hit, while they can still attack freely. It makes the fight more dangerous, and changes the battle, as it was intended to. Furthermore, you can still attack and find ways to work around it. You can debuff them, pop some inspirations, buff yourself, there are options. This isn't me complaining that mobs are too hard to kill. What I am complaining about is a power that serves no purpose, gives no advantage, changes nothing in a fight, and makes you sit there for several seconds unable to do anything but wait for it to end.

Tactics, my friend.

 

My stalker can burst kill them before they pop bubblegum drops.

 

Maybe... New tactical thinking?

[ninja surprise]

What about the Crey Protectors who bubble up when almost defeated?

[Galaxy Brain]

16 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Tactics, my friend.

 

My stalker can burst kill them before they pop bubblegum drops.

 

Maybe... New tactical thinking?

to be honest, that is not a special tactic reserved for Nemmies

[Sakura Tenshi]

4 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Fakes may be able to still be buffed by LTs vengeance while bubbled up, I would have to double check. As frustrating as it is, it's a Nemesis tactic, and adds flair to the villain group. If the fakes didn't have the PFF then they really are unremarkable as bosses. If anything all nemesis troops should be equipped with the same tactic! Imagine how annoying they would become!

Actually, they can't. I am with the OP that nemesis bubble is pretty useless, but rather than remove it I'd rather see it changed into something else, maybe at least make it so it boosts his Recovery and Regen, or better still, have him also summon some Nemesis Jaegers to back him up and attack while he gets breathing space? Hell, it would make more sense for him to have detention field. In general, Fake Nemesis just feel kind of disappointing as enemies, especially since the AV nemesis is exactly the same but with a bigger health bar.

[Snowdaze]

5 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Actually, they can't. I am with the OP that nemesis bubble is pretty useless, but rather than remove it I'd rather see it changed into something else, maybe at least make it so it boosts his Recovery and Regen, or better still, have him also summon some Nemesis Jaegers to back him up and attack while he gets breathing space? Hell, it would make more sense for him to have detention field. In general, Fake Nemesis just feel kind of disappointing as enemies, especially since the AV nemesis is exactly the same but with a bigger health bar.

Someone else chimed in with the results before you... You were late.

 

I will settle for nothing less then the Fake summoning in a whole new Fake to takes it's place, thus you still have to burst damage it quickly for the last 1/3rd to 1/4th of it's health like you do right now, lest you be fighting an endless chain of Fakes.... PFF is fine.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Snowdaze

[Haijinx]

yeah - no. 

[Ruin Mage]

Nah.

[ShardWarrior]

19 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

It doesn't make the fight challenging, or difficult, or anything.

Removing it does not accomplish any of those things either.

[RikOz]

I think that half the problem, across the entire game, is that the mob AI is set up to use their powers as if they're fighting on a team, but the AI is primitive enough that it has no "situational awareness". So instead of using team-oriented powers in coordination with their "teammates" and the current situation, they instead fire off these powers at either predetermined hit point levels, or completely at random.

 

A good example is enemy teleporters. Their teleportation isn't used in any tactical manner - they just randomly pop away, often reappearing halfway across the map - and that frequently results in a tactically terrible situation for them: instead of being a part of ganging up on you, they pop away at the start of the fight and then reappear after you've defeated the rest of their "team" and now they have to fight you alone.

 

Those Sky Raider Engineers have about the only tactically sound AI team power use in the game, since they try to get their FF up as soon as they see you.

[GM Tock]

Please stay on topic.  Thanks!

[Nayeh]

All these posts about how there isn't enough difficult content and yet there are players that insist on removing every minor inconvenience that adds some dynamic of difficulty.  There should be some type of annoying monster in every game, they create the small memorable experiences. The purpose is that it leaves you vulnerable to other enemies attacking you while they are essentially intangible. It also gives them an opportunity to run away and perhaps later hurl a force bolt.

 

On any note, you could easily combat Fake Nemesis by spiking them with chains of Crowd Control, Endurance Drains, or saving your big damage moves that would clear their HP before the PFF threshold (~ 25% they will cast it).

[Lazarillo]

Nemesis in general are just the "time-sink" faction, which is a shame.  Personal Force Field and Vengeance stacking makes them take longer to kill, but adds little-to-nothing to their own lethality, so there's no added challenge beyond finding something to alt-tab to for a couple minutes until the effect goes away.  The group as a whole deserves an overhaul, because storywise, Nemesis is danged cool, but not cool enough to overcome the boredom of fighting his lackies.

[Sakura Tenshi]

20 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Nemesis in general are just the "time-sink" faction, which is a shame.  Personal Force Field and Vengeance stacking makes them take longer to kill, but adds little-to-nothing to their own lethality, so there's no added challenge beyond finding something to alt-tab to for a couple minutes until the effect goes away.  The group as a whole deserves an overhaul, because storywise, Nemesis is danged cool, but not cool enough to overcome the boredom of fighting his lackies.

I don’t know about the vengeance stacking not adding lethality but I like to play as high defense characters who have little in the way of resists so their stacked to hit buffs hurt.

 

that said, what I find odd is how it all fits into the group lorewise. Nemesis’ army isn’t really said to be the type to inspire loyalty of individual officers when avatars of their master tend to be around every corner, but what’s really weird is why nemesis automatons have it when they’re not only robots, they’re expressly crappy robots who constantly glitch and show plenty of obvious signs of their inhumanity with few exceptions.

 

but this is all off topic. And going back to fake nemesis, how about as a challenge, the personal forcefield heals the fake nemesis for half his total HP?

[Naraka]

11 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Nemesis in general are just the "time-sink" faction, which is a shame.  Personal Force Field and Vengeance stacking makes them take longer to kill, but adds little-to-nothing to their own lethality, so there's no added challenge beyond finding something to alt-tab to for a couple minutes until the effect goes away.  The group as a whole deserves an overhaul, because storywise, Nemesis is danged cool, but not cool enough to overcome the boredom of fighting his lackies.

Well if you build your character to minimize danger and/or maximize survival, don't you think that's the whole point of your build?  To characters without heightened survivability through powers/IOs, the stacking Vengeance just might also increase the foe's lethality by increasing the time of engagement.

 

Ultimately, that is going to determine the possible threat foes have to players: time of engagement.  If the foe can't last long enough and withstand your volley of attacks, they will pose no threat.

 

On the topic of Fake Nemesis, I think they should activate their PFF earlier and more often, perhaps with a half'ed duration.  If you think about it, the most danger is likely going to be the first couple seconds when your team/yourself is likely going to use Buildup/Aim/high damage AoEs/AoE controls/AoE debuffs.  In the case of my Stalkers, I can completely destroy them in about 3 attacks before they even get a chance to put up PFF.  It would actually make them tougher if they put up their shield right at the start, the moment they are aggroed to try and avoid some of the AoE effects then bring it back up occasionally to screw with those winding up their big damage only to get it absorbed into the shield.

[SwitchFade]

13 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Nemesis in general are just the "time-sink" faction, which is a shame.  Personal Force Field and Vengeance stacking makes them take longer to kill, but adds little-to-nothing to their own lethality, so there's no added challenge beyond finding something to alt-tab to for a couple minutes until the effect goes away.  The group as a whole deserves an overhaul, because storywise, Nemesis is danged cool, but not cool enough to overcome the boredom of fighting his lackies.

No thanks on an overhaul, they're good as is.

 

The PFF should make you rethink your tactics, working as intended.

 

Vengeance is murderous to defense toons, and also makes them hard to hit. It also stacks, making s tactical change necessary.

 

Everyone forgets this: nemesis have huge perception on certain NPCs, they see you far off and through stealth.

 

They do huge AoE.

 

The bots leave auto hit gas patches that stack, don't hang out in the aftermath of 6 dead bots.

 

Bosses are very tough and corpse explode on death.

 

Well then, as a diverse, difficult, tactically different group of foes, the Nemesis look spot on for quality design. The offer challenge, require a more advanced tactical approach to defeat quickly and are highly lethal.

Edited May 30, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Lazarillo]

35 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

The PFF should make you rethink your tactics, working as intended.

You don't have to rethink your tactics, though.  They can't hurt you either when they're PFF-ed.  The new tactic they inspire is "eh, go take a break and refill your drink".

 

35 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Vengeance is murderous to defense toons, and also makes them hard to hit. It also stacks, making s tactical change necessary.

Multiplying To-Hit is meaningless when the guys benefiting from the multipliers do almost no damage in the first place.

 

There are no tactics, ultimately, as effective against Nemesis, as going afk.  Which isn't exactly what the game should be encouraging.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Lazarillo

[BrandX]

I thought the challenge was in you burning them down fast enough, before they trigger it.  To slow?  Challenge yourself to get faster.

[Galaxy Brain]

37 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I thought the challenge was in you burning them down fast enough, before they trigger it.  To slow?  Challenge yourself to get faster.

That isnt a challenge if that is the status quo

[nihilii]

15 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Vengeance stacking makes them take longer to kill, but adds little-to-nothing to their own lethality

Vengeance stacking wrecks most of my characters, and I build these same characters to solo +4/x8 against all factions and LRSF/STF. I don't know what kind of overpowered demi-god you've built, but I want some of that goodness!

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Vengeance is murderous to defense toons, and also makes them hard to hit. It also stacks, making s tactical change necessary.

 

 

... unless I'm recalling incorrectly, their Veng still has an AOE hole. Rikti drones, too.

[Sakura Tenshi]

22 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... unless I'm recalling incorrectly, their Veng still has an AOE hole. Rikti drones, too.

it's actually got 'a lot' of holes in it. It only gives a buff to ranged and melee defense, no typed defenses and no AoE. (guess that's why my Titan Weapons guy was never bothered by it. Well, that and being willpower)

[Snowdaze]

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

it's actually got 'a lot' of holes in it. It only gives a buff to ranged and melee defense, no typed defenses and no AoE. (guess that's why my Titan Weapons guy was never bothered by it. Well, that and being willpower)

So it's an AoE hole, because only the highest applicable DEF is checked, not multiple defenses. Thus if you have positional you don't need type, and if you have type you don't need positional. However Toxic attacks only check against positional. Also if any attack is dual damage type once again the Highest applicable DEF is checked, thats why Blasters with just capped S/L/E are very tough. Even though they might have lower neg/fire/cold/psi/toxic, many of those attacks are dual damage typed with S/L thus the S/L defense is used against those dual damage attacks.

 

So if there is an AoE hole and no type defense, the real hole is AoE.

[Sakura Tenshi]

1 hour ago, Snowdaze said:

So it's an AoE hole, because only the highest applicable DEF is checked, not multiple defenses. Thus if you have positional you don't need type, and if you have type you don't need positional. However Toxic attacks only check against positional. Also if any attack is dual damage type once again the Highest applicable DEF is checked, thats why Blasters with just capped S/L/E are very tough. Even though they might have lower neg/fire/cold/psi/toxic, many of those attacks are dual damage typed with S/L thus the S/L defense is used against those dual damage attacks.

 

So if there is an AoE hole and no type defense, the real hole is AoE.

interestingly, even that's not that big of a whole form what I observed as any AoE attack is going to by flagged as "ranged" or "melee" still, so like with s/l softcapped blasters, unless you have (presumably) locational AoEs like burn, rain of arrows, etc. it will still check against the Melee or Ranged portion and be negated than the missing AoE.

[Grouchybeast]

39 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

interestingly, even that's not that big of a whole form what I observed as any AoE attack is going to by flagged as "ranged" or "melee" still, so like with s/l softcapped blasters, unless you have (presumably) locational AoEs like burn, rain of arrows, etc. it will still check against the Melee or Ranged portion and be negated than the missing AoE.

I don't think this is true  Someone in this thread checked all the enemy powers, and only a handful have more than one positional tag.