Improvements to PvP zones

[Apparition]

If you believe that PvP players are some great scourge on the game, then I have to ask...  Why are you playing on the unofficial PvP server?  That is like playing on Everlasting and then complaining about others RPing.

[macskull]

11 minutes ago, Alpha-One said:

I see you think you're a better person than I, just because my preferences rub you the wrong way. I think the PvP zones offer an outlet for griefers that shouldn't be in the game. Zones that were added 2 years into the game's life. Yes I think they should be removed, not because I think PvP is silly, but because I think it brings the wrong kind of players into the game. The kind that should stick to Fortnite and CoD to get their kicks. If you feel that statement includes you, then I suggest you do some soul-searching.

"Griefers."

 

 

Point of clarification - PvP was always intended to be part of the game, but it wasn't included with launch because it wasn't ready. The game was barely a year old when it was added, but zones didn't exist at the time because there was no thematic reason for them to exist. The addition of villains gave a perfect thematic reason and bam, here we are. The game has had PvP and PvP zones far longer than it didn't have them.

 

It is an unfortunate reality that zone PvP is not the most balanced form of PvP in this game and that it's also most peoples' first experience with PvP but there are two general categories of players in this game with respect to PvP:

1. Players who go into a PvP zone and get facerolled but are still interested, go "that was pretty intense!" and end up learning why they are getting facerolled and make improvements
2. Players who go into a PvP zone and get facerolled and complain about it

My first experiences with PvP in this game were rough, but instead of complaining I figured out what other players were doing and took the initiative to learn and make myself better - learning the systems, learning the builds, and so on. As a whole, the PvP community in this game is relatively friendly, if somewhat abrasive, and extremely helpful. You are approaching this from the point of "I don't like this so it should be changed to cater to me" which is going to get you exactly nowhere.

 

I also notice that you refuse to acknowledge what I said about the live and Homecoming GM teams, and refuse to acknowledge that I am actually trying to help you deal with at least one of the problems you're having.

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by macskull

[Dan Petro]

 

Solutions to your problem : Make a PvP build, learn how to play it, dominate the "Griefers"

 

Build a VEAT, they have higher perception caps and can see stalkers.  Protect other badgers from griefers.  Team with an emp/sonic/pain, they can take you to the perception cap and also heal you (outside of the sonic).  

 

Team up - Numbers matter in zones.  Get some friends.  PVP'ers make up a small fraction of the population and PvE'ers easily outnumber them. 

 

The solutions are there for you without any mechanical changes needed. 🙂

[Alpha-One]

Just now, macskull said:

"Griefers."

 

 

Point of clarification - PvP was always intended to be part of the game, but it wasn't included with launch because it wasn't ready. The game was barely a year old when it was added, but zones didn't exist at the time because there was no thematic reason for them to exist. The addition of villains gave a perfect thematic reason and bam, here we are. The game has had PvP and PvP zones far longer than it didn't have them.

 

It is an unfortunate reality that zone PvP is not the most balanced form of PvP in this game and that it's also most peoples' first experience with PvP but there are two general categories of players in this game with respect to PvP:

1. Players who go into a PvP zone and get facerolled but are still interested, go "that was pretty intense!" and end up learning why they are getting facerolled and make improvements
2. Players who go into a PvP zone and get facerolled and complain about it

My first experiences with PvP in this game were rough, but instead of complaining I figured out what other players were doing and took the initiative to learn and make myself better - learning the systems, learning the builds, and so on. You are approaching this from the point of "I don't like this so it should be changed to cater to me" which is going to get you exactly nowhere.

 

1) players who go into a PvP zone for the non-PvP objectives; and

2) players who go into a PvP zone to attack the first type of player.

 

And since we're big on personal attacks today, you won't see my in RV anymore "griefer". I got my badges, learned as much as I could about the current state of PvP (*cough* proc-stacking *cough*) and came here to give my ideas. And for the person asking why I'm on Indom? Because that's the shard my crew and I chose to settle in when HC started up, before they even announced that it was the "unofficial" PvP shard. In other words, it was MY home first. 
 And yet I couldn't see a stalker standing next to me, but he could see me. Either I've found a bug or something isn't right.

 

But let's keep talking about how much "skill" it takes to AS someone clicking on a glowy...
 

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 hours ago, Alpha-One said:

 

 

After spending a couple weeks badging in the PvP zones on Indomitable (the unofficial PvP server),

 

So to combat what some could see as unfair gameplay 

 

 

 

Sorry to pick two phrases rather than the whole post, but I think I see your problem here.  People (including you) feel the desire/need/obsession to get certain badges, and other people (not including you) see that and get their enjoyment from picking off those people.

 

I'm pretty open-minded, but I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone can view either of those behaviors as unfair gameplay.

 

Thanks for your attention!

[gameboy1234]

51 minutes ago, Alpha-One said:

I would simply stop playing, I don't play multiplayer shooters or other competitive multiplayer games, and I hate PvP based MMOs (Aion, Archeage, etc). And I'm saying this AFTER trying them and give them a good go. I don't enjoy it and I'm certain I'm not alone. If City of Heroes was a PvP focused game I would never have started playing it. As you're saying removing PvE from the game, or making it all open PvP, would just make me uninstall the game. If removing the PvP from the game entirely would cause someone to quit I'd be perfectly OK with that.

Back on live I too my badger and my main into PvP zones for the badges.  It was my mastermind and I did the whole thing petless.  My secret?  Teleport and Hover.

 

Basically I had Teleport slotted with EndRedux and range so I could use it continuously with no problems, and it was also a good sight faster than anything else at the time.  I also had a key bind on LMOUSE so that I could use it very quickly.  So I turned on Hover, rocketed up to the top of the sky box, and then would position myself about where I needed to go before descending (with Teleport, of course) to get the badge I needed.  Basically I never stopped teleporting or clicking.

 

There's a few badges that are hard to get this way because you need some maneuvering finesse but for the most part it worked really well.  I basically just sped past any attempt to gank me.  They had to guess where I was going and try to ambush me, and the zones aren't exactly full, so once you lost someone they were generally gone for good.

 

[macskull]

37 minutes ago, Alpha-One said:

1) players who go into a PvP zone for the non-PvP objectives; and

2) players who go into a PvP zone to attack the first type of player.

 

And since we're big on personal attacks today, you won't see my in RV anymore "griefer". I got my badges, learned as much as I could about the current state of PvP (*cough* proc-stacking *cough*) and came here to give my ideas. And for the person asking why I'm on Indom? Because that's the shard my crew and I chose to settle in when HC started up, before they even announced that it was the "unofficial" PvP shard. In other words, it was MY home first. 
 And yet I couldn't see a stalker standing next to me, but he could see me. Either I've found a bug or something isn't right.

 

But let's keep talking about how much "skill" it takes to AS someone clicking on a glowy...
 

1. I don't think "we" are anything with regards to personal attacks, as I haven't attacked you personally a single time.
2. You're forgetting a third category of player - players who go to a PvP zone to PvP. While I'm sure the player you describe in category 2 does exist, they are certainly not in the majority.
3. You couldn't possibly have "settled in" on Indomitable "when HC started up" as the server didn't exist when HC went live, and at any rate it was designated as the unofficial PvP server within three days of its creation.
4. If you couldn't see a stealth-capped Stalker with your capped perception, then that Stalker was more than 10 feet away from you. It's not a bug, though it might have to do with server latency. See also my earlier statements about autohit debuff auras or patch/rain-type powers which would either remove the Stalker's stealth entirely or at the very least just drop them to Hide-only stealth levels (500ft stealth radius, IIRC).
5. Since I never said that it takes skill to AS a player that's standing still, I'm confused by your comment. But please, continue to insist Stalkers are "no skill pussy play" - if your opponent has no skill but you are unable to counter what they're doing, what does that say about your skill level?

Edited June 13, 2020 by macskull

[0th Power]

This thread is fun

[Razor Cure]

4 hours ago, MrsAlphaOne said:

So kill farming/ganking.

Could always..ya know..go do it on a Server that is NOT the pvp one.

[golstat2003]

Don't step into a pvp zone if you don't want pvp. This was already argued to death on live and the devs confirmed it there:. Pvp in a pvp zone is not griefing. Move on.

 

HC is using the same ruleset as the live devs. You enter a pvp zone expect pvp. You don't want to be easily seen while you badge take invis/stealth and slot a stealth IO.

 

Want to see stalkers? Build perception into a 2nd build. You can do your badging on that build.

 

Giant Fing /JRANGER to the suggestions made by the OP.

Edited June 13, 2020 by golstat2003

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Alpha-One said:

And yet there is no way for someone to enter the zone and say "I want to do the stuff that's here but I don't want to be engaged in PvP".

It is a PVP zone. You are warned about that on entering.

 

It's like jumping into water after yelling "I don't want to get wet!" and complaining that you're wet afterward. Obviously Water needs to be nerfed like it's the child of two Regens, then...

Edited June 13, 2020 by Greycat

[Oubliette_Red]

43 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

This thread is fun

Iknowright!?

 

Regarding the subject at hand. PvP is my least favourite part of any game. I found venturing into PvP zones on Legacy to be only slightly annoying, but I kept on the move and rarely had issues. I recall only one instance of some posterior head-adornment camping the hospital. I used Base Teleport to exit from within the hospital and re-entered the zone and dropped my Phantom Army on the camper on the way to my objective.

 

When you enter a PvP zone you are a legitimate target. Don't want to get AS'd by some lone stalker? Bring friends, I'm sure there's a Badging channel on Indom and I'm pretty sure any number of them have run into the same issue and would help out.

 

[tidge]

20 hours ago, Alpha-One said:

Warburg (encourage zone content: fighting for Rocket codes)

• Successfully launching a rocket grants a random Purple or PvP recipe if player already has Temp Power (again encourage zone content)

 

Siren's Call (Make Siren's Call THE free-for-all PvP Zone)

• Defeating Bounty grants a random Purple or PvP recipe (encourage hunting down and defeating the Bounty player)

 

Bloody Bay (encourage zone content: Shiva Strike mission)

• Delivering Ore Sample to Scientist grants a random Purple or PvP recipe if player already has Shivan Shard temp power (again encourage zone content)

 

18 hours ago, EmpireForgotten said:

 

Honestly, The bolded part seems great, but a Purple just seems like overkill. 

Maybe a SO enhancement (random origin), or perhaps an Inspiration (Medium MAX..Large would be abused). I think two those types of rewards would really get the blood pumping

 

Granting Purples/PVP recipes for 'already having the temp power' is crazy (crazy bad, not crazy good). It would simply be a mechanism for farming such recipes. Also not recommended for defeating specific players, as a multiboxer (or SG) could farm them.

 

As much as I'd like to GRAB MOAR Purple/PVP recipes, I don't think this is a good idea at all.

[Frozen Rune]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

 

Granting Purples/PVP recipes for 'already having the temp power' is crazy (crazy bad, not crazy good). It would simply be a mechanism for farming such recipes. Also not recommended for defeating specific players, as a multiboxer (or SG) could farm them.

 

As much as I'd like to GRAB MOAR Purple/PVP recipes, I don't think this is a good idea at all.

What do you think you about the SO suggestion though?

[SwitchFade]

I figured out how to fix the pvp problem.

 

Right when it was launched 

 

I never went in there.

 

FIX'D.

 

At least, for me. 😋

 

Also, I heard if you nerf Regen it fixes PvP for kittens.

Edited June 14, 2020 by SwitchFade

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Frozen Rune said:

What do you think you about the SO suggestion though?

Bah, I'd rather get more charges of the temp power. SOs are hardly worth the effort.

[macskull]

To comment more on the original topic of fixing PvP zones:

 

Back on live, you could usually find at least a few players in most PvP zones on most servers - the lower-population ones weren't usually busy, but Freedom, Infinity, Liberty, Justice, and Virtue had some activity. That is, at least, until the Issue 13 changes wiped out most of the PvP population. After that it was hard to find players on any server that wasn't Freedom. Homecoming's population is far smaller than the live servers ever were meaning the PvP population is smaller as well, to the point where only Recluse's Victory on Indomitable is the only regularly-busy PvP zone. Other zones and other servers might occasionally have players, but if I log on with the intention of going into a zone and engaging in PvP the only place I'm reasonably sure of finding it is RV on Indom.

 

So... how do you bring the population of PvP zones up? Well, the first step is providing meaningful rewards for engaging in PvP. While it is true that rewards for PvP have been added (PvP recipes, inf/salvage/incarnate shards/threads/inspirations from player defeats, etc.) they did not address the population issues - the PvP population was far higher when there were no rewards and the addition of rewards didn't significantly increase the population. Why? I feel like at least part of it is due to the large changes in mechanics between PvE and PvP which are neither explained ingame nor particularly intuitive. Another part is the game's playerbase in general - this game is very easy and very casual-friendly which tends to attract the type of players who just aren't interested in PvP in the first place and there's nothing you can do to change that. The "activities" in the PvP zones were originally meant to get those players into PvP zones to at least experience it, but because you were never required to engage in PvP to get those rewards those players complained. PvP recipes were basically the only attractive reward that could only be earned through PvP, but the drop rate plus lockout timer meant the actual chance of getting one was so abysmal that the majority of the supply back on live came from people AFK farming them. On Homecoming PvP recipes drop from PvE mobs which means once again there's no actual incentive to PvP.

 

The next step is mechanics changes, and making things easier to understand, but it's highly unlikely this will happen because it would require significant time investment on the part of the dev team with no guaranteed payoff. One of the common barriers to PvP I hear about is "I need a whole different character with a different build and I don't have time or inf to make that happen." That's a legitimate concern, which is why I think it'd be neat to be able to create, level, IO, and accolade a character for free - as long as that character is only used in PvP zones or the arena. Suddenly one of the largest hurdles to participating in PvP is removed. When PvP was the weekly discussion topic some months back there were multiple thoughtful and well-supported proposals for changes. The ideas are out there, it's just a matter of implementing them. My personal suggestion, aside from mechanics changes, is to change the reputation system - right now it decays relatively quickly when you're not logged in, the lockout for defeating the same player is too long, and you can't use it for anything. Make reputation redeemable for ingame rewards and you might be on to something. Likewise, the bounty system in Siren's Call is a good mechanic but it's underused because the items you could buy with it aren't worth the amount of bounty it takes. Adjust the items available and the cost, and maybe add a similar system to the other PvP zones.

[0th Power]

How hard would it be to reverse the i13 changes? Just curious. 

[M3z]

46 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

How hard would it be to reverse the i13 changes? Just curious. 

Difficult, also many other things would break that would make the game more insufferable than it is(old mez system would be busted with hold procs, would need to reintroduce unresisted damage/debuffs to ATs again, incarnates would be busted etc etc). But I do think the entire pvp community agrees that pre i13 pvp was waaaaaaaaay better than what it currently is and if effort is ever put forth to try and recreate i12 pvp again it would help bring more people to pvp simply because it's easier to understand than the current system. I just mean if you brought your pve build to pvp in i12, you would do okay in a lot of circumstances(of course straight up pvp builds would probably beat you but atleast there was counterplay and you could fight back). In current patch if you bring something that isn't specced specifically for pvp you actually stand 0 chance because it's just a damage race at this point.

 

edit: not to mention there's completely different mechanics now in pvp and the game doesn't tell you how any of it works so that adds to the confusion.

Edited June 13, 2020 by M3z