Did tanks get overbuffed?

[Bill Z Bubba]

27 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

luckily by comparing the same combo against itself using your own playstyle, you should be in a good spot for a "fair" comparison as there are less variables due to your choices (outside of say, stopping o use Taunt on the tank). Something like 6-10 missions on the same build with only the AT changing should be a good benchmark assuming the same strategies and the like (also assuming Brute and Tank Claws are the exact same outside of damage / inherent stuff).

The problem with running identical builds across multiple ATs is that it completely misses the point.

 

The caps are the caps. If the tank is able to hit those caps with far less IO and power choice expenditure than the brute and then utilize that excess for damage output, it surpasses the brute.

 

I don't know how else to restate this.

 

Yes, it's absolutely true that the brute (or the scrapper or the stalker) doesn't NEED to hit those caps to steamroll over 95% of the game's content, it still leaves the tank in a numerically superior situation over the brute regardless of the combo, especially when solo.

 

Again though, this statement more than likely fails to remain true if the brute has a pocket kinetic or a tray full of huge reds but that just doesn't happen on the regular. And once upon a time I had some beautiful attack chain spreadsheets that let me plug any value of +damage but those died with the original shutdown so I can't even say for sure that a claws tank at the damage cap will surpass a claws brute at the cap.

 

Everything I'm seeing and saying is based off of solo play.

[Haijinx]

Actually SR is an Edge case for Tankers.

 

Since you have GOBS of extra slots available, due to the ease with which you softcap 

 

For Brutes its more a middle of the road slot heavy set.  

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Actually SR is an Edge case for Tankers.

 

Since you have GOBS of extra slots available, due to the ease with which you softcap 

 

For Brutes its more a middle of the road slot heavy set.  

 

 

I am quite ready to accept this.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I am quite ready to accept this.

Except no matter how I try I can't come up with a NON edge case combo. Someone is going to naysay the comparison for some reason.

 

Helped my brother with his stone/axe build this morning and on a lark built it identically in mids as a brute. The brute ends up not even being hardcapped on SL damres but in the end probably wins out because fury allows the combo to ignore the -damage from granite while still being close enough to the mitigation caps. But we ALL know stone armor is its own freakish edge case.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Galaxy Brain]

52 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The problem with running identical builds across multiple ATs is that it completely misses the point.

 

The caps are the caps. If the tank is able to hit those caps with far less IO and power choice expenditure than the brute and then utilize that excess for damage output, it surpasses the brute.

 

I don't know how else to restate this.

 

Yes, it's absolutely true that the brute (or the scrapper or the stalker) doesn't NEED to hit those caps to steamroll over 95% of the game's content, it still leaves the tank in a numerically superior situation over the brute regardless of the combo, especially when solo.

 

Again though, this statement more than likely fails to remain true if the brute has a pocket kinetic or a tray full of huge reds but that just doesn't happen on the regular. And once upon a time I had some beautiful attack chain spreadsheets that let me plug any value of +damage but those died with the original shutdown so I can't even say for sure that a claws tank at the damage cap will surpass a claws brute at the cap.

 

Everything I'm seeing and saying is based off of solo play.

I was more talking about the methodology you have where you are trying to compare an SR/Claw tank and a Claw/SR Brute. When comparing two like ATs, this may be as close as you get so you only really have to worry about strategy.

[modest]

31 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Except no matter how I try I can't come up with a NON edge case combo. Someone is going to naysay the comparison for some reason.

 

Helped my brother with his stone/axe build this morning and on a lark built it identically in mids as a brute. The brute ends up not even being hardcapped on SL damres but in the end probably wins out because fury allows the combo to ignore the -damage from granite while still being close enough to the mitigation caps. But we ALL know stone armor is its own freakish edge case.

Bill, on both a Brute and a Tanker, Stone Armor caps Smashing and Lethal resistances with three skills: Granite, Stone Skin, and Tough. I verified this by creating a fresh Battle Axe/Stone Armor build in Mid's. The build exceeded the cap for S/L resistances prior to slotting any attacks.

 

A Brute with this combination will be able to slot the same damage procs as a Tanker with this combination.

 

It's my opinion that your perception of the archetypes, and the specific power sets that have been mentioned in this thread, are being heavily influenced by your personal build philosophy. Your build preferences will heavily alter the performance of each archetype and power set.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, modest said:

Bill, on both a Brute and a Tanker, Stone Armor caps Smashing and Lethal resistances with three skills: Granite, Stone Skin, and Tough. I verified this by creating a fresh Battle Axe/Stone Armor build in Mid's. The build exceeded the cap for S/L resistances prior to slotting any attacks.

Yes, this is absolutely true, just like an SR tank can softcap with SOs. But I'm sure my brother wouldn't want to horrifically gimp his build with the slotting you're showing there. I didn't state that the brute can't hit the SL damres cap, I stated that with my brother's slotting from his tank copied to the brute build, it simply didn't. It would absolutely be simple to correct but something would have to be taken from somewhere else to get it there and WAY more than likely would lessen the build's offensive output. Here's the side by side. Tank, obviously, on the left.

 

 

6 minutes ago, modest said:

A Brute with this combination will be able to slot the same damage procs as a Tanker with this combination.

Again, absolutely true but I wouldn't want to play that brute. But leading into your next point...

 

7 minutes ago, modest said:

It's my opinion that your perception of the archetypes, and the specific power sets that have been mentioned in this thread, are being heavily influenced by your personal build philosophy. Your build preferences will heavily alter the performance of each archetype and power set.

Again, true. I build each character to suit my scrapperlock play-style tempered by the archetype and powerset combo in question.

 

Unfortunately, will all those truths, the original complaint stands.

 

If I build a brute to maximize its mitigation potential, and then build a tank with the same and reversed powersets to match the brute's exact mitigation values, I'm left with a whole lotta crap to boost the tank's offense that the brute simply didn't have to play with. This does absolutely still leave the brute cruising along with equal mitigation AND 180-190% damage buff but with a lower AT damage mod that the tank's extra build wealth can utilize with its higher AT damage mod.

More available slots means more set bonuses. More bonuses means better performance. My argument is that it appears, to me so far, until I either see for myself that I'm wrong or someone can get through my stubborn assed scrapperlocked skull, that I can take ANYONE's capped to the walls brute build, and turn it into a tank with identical mitigation that's better offensively and this is due to the recent buffs.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Counter-argument to myself for later concepts: I am INcapable of taking a brute build maximized for extreme damage output and turning that into a tank that would come anywhere close on damage output.
But it would definitely trash the brute on the mitigation side.

[Bill Z Bubba]

But it is something I have to add into the mix ... is the brute's maximum damage capability something that can consistently be leveraged in a way so that it causes me no more mental quandaries than I have when comparing my scrapper and my tank?

 

See, yall, I went down this road before way back before the snap shortly after the claws overhaul that BAB and Castle did. In the end, before the introduction of the AT IOs drastically improving scrapper damage, brute claws output was so close to scrapper claws output, that the brute's extra mitigation meant there was no reason to ever build a claws/sr scrapper. The brute was just plain overall superior. So the original Bill Z Bubba was shoved off to another server and he was rebuilt fully as a brute.

I'm running into the same situation now between tanks and brutes, again because of developer buffs.

 

Edit2: Bill Z Bubba is a scrapper again... just as a silly side note.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[arcane]

46 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

More available slots means more set bonuses. More bonuses means better performance. My argument is that it appears, to me so far, until I either see for myself that I'm wrong or someone can get through my stubborn assed scrapperlocked skull, that I can take ANYONE's capped to the walls brute build, and turn it into a tank with identical mitigation that's better offensively and this is due to the recent buffs.

I see how you get more bonuses,, slots, etc and how tankers can do a fair bit to close the damage gap. What I don’t see is how you get enough to overpower brute damage at typical fury levels (75%+ or so?), and what I *really* don’t see is any data that is remotely adequate to conclude either (1) “brutes are useless” or (2) “more people play tankers than brutes in the endgame”. 
 

Also, I, for one, have never started a tanker build by making a brute build first. Seems like a strange way to do things.

 

Then again I frequently forego traditional build wisdom, for instance by building like half my toons without even trying to get anywhere close to soft capped defense. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, arcaneholocaust said:

(1) “brutes are useless”

No AT is useless.

 

1 minute ago, arcaneholocaust said:

(2) “more people play tankers than brutes in the endgame”. 

Devs could provide this info. I know that I have a lot more tanks now than before the buff and I know many in game in the same boat.

 

2 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Also, I, for one, have never started a tanker build by making a brute build first. Seems like a strange way to do things.

Yes, that would be bizarre and entirely beside the point.

 

3 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I see how you get more bonuses,, slots, etc and how tankers can do a fair bit to close the damage gap. What I don’t see is how you get enough to overpower brute damage at typical fury levels (75%+ or so?)

This... I kind of already showed. My new SR/Tank build not only continues to have considerably higher mitigation values in all areas than the brute but clears the test map faster using the same attack chains of followup, focus, slash, repeat for ST and followup, focus, spin, shockwave, repeat for AOE.

As mentioned by others, of course, in the case of claws, with consistently double stacked followup on top of the higher base AT damage mod, that kinda makes sense. The argument others are making is that this won't be true for the attack sets that use buildup. A claim I find highly questionable considering how often buildup is available in high end builds and that it, too, will provide more benefit for the tank's higher base dam mod.

[arcane]

Perhaps I’m just building tanks to have too much mitigation. I don’t have pleasant memories of tank damage post-buff, but it’s true that the tank in question had more mitigation than any brute would ever have. 

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But I'm sure my brother wouldn't want to horrifically gimp his build with the slotting you're showing there.

I have to agree.

 

2 hours ago, modest said:

The build exceeded the cap for S/L resistances prior to slotting any attacks

Modest, how can you expect to be taken seriously as a master builder if you forget to take 6 powers, not use 6 of your enhancement slots, and only slot 9 of your powers? Sure, you reached capped S/L resistance, but at what cost?

Edited July 10, 2020 by Bopper
*super joking around*

[Twisted Toon]

4 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

 (2) “more people play tankers than brutes in the endgame”. 
 

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Devs could provide this info. I know that I have a lot more tanks now than before the buff and I know many in game in the same boat.

 

They did.

Looks like More Brutes are made and played than Tanks. That's even taking out Fire Brutes.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Is that recent? I'd be curious to see how many tanks were made/played since the buffs vs brutes.

[golstat2003]

Yeah I'm addicted to Fury. I tried a few tanks post buff. Came right back to the Brute side.

[Sir Myshkin]

8 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It would absolutely be simple to correct but something would have to be taken from somewhere else to get it there and WAY more than likely would lessen the build's offensive output. Here's the side by side.

Sorry, I have to call shenanigans on those Tanker stats. They are far too over-cooked to be just Granite turned on, probably more than just the Tanker ATO+Res I'm betting too since you're going from near cap in one to 66% in the Brute version. That's 24% loss and just AT migration wouldn't cover that much variance. Also, what offense is being sacrificed by translating into a Brute?

 

 

 

Tanker build has the +Res toggled off to show true values (but it's somewhat easy to stack that power up a couple times to cap S/L/E/N).

 

For full transparency, Brute Build:

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Stone Armor
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury(36)
Level 1: Rock Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 2: Stone Skin -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-Max HP%(3)
Level 4: Earth's Embrace -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(7), Pnc-Heal(7)
Level 6: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(9), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(9), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(45)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Hct-Dam%(17), UnbCns-Dam%(17), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(27), FrcFdb-Rechg%(27)
Level 10: Mud Pots -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(11), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(36)
Level 12: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A)
Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19), GssSynFr--Build%(19)
Level 20: Weave -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(21), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Rct-Def/Rchg(23), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Rct-ResDam%(25)
Level 22: Cross Punch -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Dmg/EndRdx(45), ScrDrv-Dam%(45), Obl-%Dam(46), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(46), FrcFdb-Rechg%(46)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Teleport -- WntGif-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng/EndRdx(A), WntGif-ResSlow(50)
Level 28: Rooted -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(29), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Prv-Heal/Rchg(31), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(31), Prv-Absorb%(31)
Level 30: Brimstone Armor -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ScrDrv-Dam%(33), Arm-Dam%(33), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(34), FrcFdb-Rechg%(34)
Level 35: Crystal Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 38: Granite Armor -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), TtnCtn-ResDam(39), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(39), Rct-Def(39), Rct-Def/EndRdx(40), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(40)
Level 41: Gloom -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(43), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(43)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- Bmbdmt-Dam(A), Bmbdmt-Acc/Rech/End(48), Bmbdmt-Dam/Rech(48), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech(48), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech/End(50), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(50)
Level 47: Darkest Night -- HO:Enzym(A)
Level 49: Minerals -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(37), Mrc-Rcvry+(40)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-EndMod(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(37), PrfShf-End%(43)
------------

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
		|MxDz;1439;678;1356;HEX;|
		|78DA6594CB4F135114C6EF6DA742A1A514C442A1500AA5D04A6DD5C48D86A888016|
		|94252E3C24DD3C0B534299D663AF8882B17EEDCBBF59988AF7FC3B7FE096E7D0155|
		|131317389E99EF882433C9E437F7BBF39D7BCEB977A6707536F0FCEC8D19213B4FD|
		|7CACD66E994B16E2A5FA15CA92E7B055D6D74471DB1545035A5B2C5F586324A45D3|
		|50F58AB93A80A9597549D59B3469EA75553A69ACE986082DE97A2DBBA8CA2BCA68A|
		|E561B41673C57ADAC9AD57AA5C319151B4AADF4388FE7297A4337CCB259D5EB9133|
		|8DEA7216B18BFA7AAD5428374D655CEBA76C927427A4E0CBF2893B94685E139EBB6|
		|0E01ED8751F1C7BC07C08BE10BB5E21FAA4A3BDA49174625A5246E82146F17EE3FD|
		|57A47A31A77987A06931E630B86F841907C3D4361F7B7CBC46FB02E6DAE7C0F179F|
		|0E0393029D16DBBA6B6490F6A4883DD19E63C185D43CCE84D8C5F93CB8FF57CFE80|
		|E6681D416617180881A3DDE058189C205F27F7A3B38978921209B216B4E8121E524|
		|2AC841C2545BEB0B017B53CE10C21EF173DFFB881381AB97A39AFDE2DD4B97F9BD9|
		|020F7C67FE00FB7F82B792D81EDBDB7759A0575798D7C1698177A76798DC8F04AD1|
		|BE1FD8C704EFDCC14CD0DA0123910852F3F08BE217590D71CFC046DE833F30B38FC|
		|95F98DB909BE25578C3B143B0C6D8A628DF09E8E700D71AE21CE35C44F20E7D1E34|
		|CAEE19D7DCE395E82CFD007FBFC737EC91DE19CD389AC74EA9A48339D3E539DDB4C|
		|F6DADFF324E732F9087B3FF598B9C17C02A69F329F818ABC19F66676A01DFAC3B49|
		|8C2875E4AA607FC181022CB75648F1134AF784FC8B196E3FC86B43DDFA573C2D22E|
		|25E752F22EE5884B39EA52E66C455EB4156BD135BB448A64453A8ABF5B082F146BB|
		|363F75FC1B3DBFF158F1CE5AFFB02AA4A2D10539AD872B95A7B5D2DF470FC17F7FD|
		|36CEC05F7E18ED59|
		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

And Tanker Build:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Jab -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(5)
Level 2: Stone Skin -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-Max HP%(17)
Level 4: Earth's Embrace -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(9), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(9), Pnc-Heal(11)
Level 6: Mud Pots -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(27)
Level 8: Rooted -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(11), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(13), Prv-Heal/Rchg(19), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(19), Prv-Absorb%(33)
Level 10: Boxing -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(21), TchofDth-Dam%(23), Mk'Bit-Dam%(23), GldStr-%Dam(25)
Level 12: Brimstone Armor -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 14: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 16: Teleport -- WntGif-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng/EndRdx(A), WntGif-ResSlow(17)
Level 18: Crystal Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(25), FrcFdb-Rechg%(27), Hct-Dam%(43), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(43), UnbCns-Dam%(43)
Level 22: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 24: Cross Punch -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), ScrDrv-Dam%(34), Obl-%Dam(34), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(37), FrcFdb-Rechg%(39)
Level 26: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), GssSynFr--Build%(29)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(31), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(31), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(50), RedFrt-EndRdx(50)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), TtnCtn-ResDam(33), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(33), HO:Cyto(39), HO:Cyto(42), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(45)
Level 35: Gloom -- Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(36), CldSns-%Dam(36), GldJvl-Dam%(37), Apc-Dam%(37)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Arm-Dam%(39), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(40), Obl-%Dam(40), ScrDrv-Dam%(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(45)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), CldSns-%Dam(46), JvlVll-Dam%(46), PstBls-Dam%(46), Ann-ResDeb%(48)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(48), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Darkest Night -- HO:Enzym(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(13), Mrc-Rcvry+(15), NmnCnv-Heal(40), RgnTss-Regen+(50)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(15)
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
Level 50: Assault Core Embodiment
Level 50: Degenerative Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
Level 50: Vorpal Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Longbow Core Superior Ally
------------

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
		|MxDz;1570;757;1514;HEX;|
		|78DA6594CB6F125114C6EFC02042A1D056A485D2027DF07ED51A376AA3D61A4D499|
		|A50DD1982ED48492990811A1F2B138D9AB830DD74E31F505DB832C6BFC418ABD6C6|
		|85F55175EBC2E0E17EC742C224E477E7BBE77CF79C33CC646FCEDA5E5CB83B2314D|
		|BB972A15ECF2F162AAB9A6ECA168AA525D1BACCF4F340CDCF6AD7B54A5D4BE61AD5|
		|8A963FA3AF55752F6F65B5B2461BEB355AE71ABA56293656847DA15A2D27E74AC59|
		|546A95274C8BB79ADB0ACE9F59552AD5FDE2F5262ADAA370A8D52B5629552AEA669|
		|CBEEF3B5D252F2ACBEDED0F2B9EA7A399F2DD41B9A7E6B90EA49D16FDB22F86A0AE|
		|15284C8A8226E3DD08C62DB2835C33BE65B507D03BEA77C4591B18AE2A6854F15CE|
		|3FD8FB407B46ECA9C661CEF381874798A3A0D50F7EA41C13728CA67BAAD40E3D643|
		|E003D8FC01D8A3523D664DE639FAFA0ED1BD8FF9DF903F4EF830A3D10B4DE34599E|
		|C0EFC80673D728FB389AA7ED107155487D308CDC4F94D8C333EB99627FF2B3A3166|
		|10FB4E22D22449A03718AC38338A717DC258F3EF6E8E3B96768EE035CD340D48033|
		|43A0E73E188D31D79013BD887B039DE5623F9707F53E9E10C2CD7EEE1BA829709B7|
		|9073101817AC667C0493E2745B50CB1DF501DDA14695ED16AB269F0C6E033FC9FCF|
		|10A3521D3E7E263EEE6BA4976965DAB9DF1EA603FC4C3319E5DCD1BF423E037F127|
		|BFEA822CF993C4EBA6A1411669CCF58A2F283DC6B308D5AC69EE3798E6D31F70CD2|
		|733CCE3D6710374D7D4D70EEC4496893A7C0D053E486784E119E5B9CE714A47EC3F|
		|CFF0FCB59984584A9514A8C7D632FE1137F0526B8964410BE89D7F04D7DC17D1FF9|
		|26E16B48728F29277300DCB10991E667943E81790CAB1DEF73932E116929706A46B|
		|B76D35D4AA64B39D6A54C7729F35DCA82CAC792A248C5E214AD29CA4AF6AD07DF0D|
		|A124D0FBAFB6A62A017E8FAFA0D7DE4B8A7C174397F93F731ADF9A9F9D3E61F8FCB|
		|6767C9336F09C7A37C1825556286B58E8585FEB585FED58CFD30B99E1E96D05DBEB|
		|39777BBDD98AE178BD43EF77B5D7FF003D57F807|
		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Is that recent? I'd be curious to see how many tanks were made/played since the buffs vs brutes.

It is the second pinned topic in the General Discussion sub forum, and is "current" as of March 2020. There are about 3,000 more level 50 Brutes than Tankers as of that update. There are approximately 44,000 more created Brutes than Tankers in total from active accounts.

[SuperPlyx]

All I know is I built a tank and brute both with the same powersets and as close to same build as possible(variance of ATO sets). 

Fought the same AV on both at the same difficulty settings. The Brute could kill the AV the Tank could not.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Sorry, I have to call shenanigans on those Tanker stats.

No clue what to tell ya. It's probably somethin obvious I'm missing. Everything is turned off except Stone Skin, Hasten, Granite, Rooted and Maneuvers. He doesn't even have the Tank +resist AT IO slotted. Just the 1st 5 from the set in Whirling Axe. Accolades are off. Temp Powers are off. PvE Mode set. Even removing the accolades completely instead of just turning them off isn't changing the totals. Went ahead and removed them from the build completely just to make sure.

 

 

Here's the brute, accolades aren't even selected.

 

 

Edit: Here's the data chunks.

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1583&c=720&a=1440&f=HEX&dc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

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1439&c=664&a=1328&f=HEX&dc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

Edited July 11, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 hours ago, SuperPlyx said:

All I know is I built a tank and brute both with the same powersets and as close to same build as possible(variance of ATO sets). 

Fought the same AV on both at the same difficulty settings. The Brute could kill the AV the Tank could not.

Yea, even the tweaked tank build that wins out on the map clearing test still has worse times against pylons than the brute.

[Bopper]

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No clue what to tell ya. It's probably somethin obvious I'm missing.

There's a lot going on here, but I have to ask, why are you 6 slotting Overwhleming Force? You don't need the knockback protection. Also, why are you using the Reactive Defense and Shield Wall Global IOs in Granite Armor? That is a big waste to your best Resistance/Defense power. You should be hitting at least 50% enhancement for resistance and defense in that power. Throw slots not needed (like the 6th Overwhelming Force slot) onto another defense power and drop the global IOs in there, and use the full 6 slots in Granite Armor for more enhancement buffs. I also noticed in the tank version, you used enhancement boosters almost everywhere, but did not do the same in the Brute version.

 

There's probably more I am missing, but thought I'd pass that along to you now so you can scrub it. If you'd like help, let me know. I main a Granite tank, so i'm very familiar with the build goals you're looking for.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

There's a lot going on here, but I have to ask, why are you 6 slotting Overwhleming Force? You don't need the knockback protection. Also, why are you using the Reactive Defense and Shield Wall Global IOs in Granite Armor? That is a big waste to your best Resistance/Defense power. You should be hitting at least 50% enhancement for resistance and defense in that power. Throw slots not needed (like the 6th Overwhelming Force slot) onto another defense power and drop the global IOs in there, and use the full 6 slots in Granite Armor for more enhancement buffs. I also noticed in the tank version, you used enhancement boosters almost everywhere, but did not do the same in the Brute version.

 

There's probably more I am missing, but thought I'd pass that along to you now so you can scrub it. If you'd like help, let me know. I main a Granite tank, so i'm very familiar with the build goals you're looking for.

It was a straight copy with minor adjustments for the AT IOs. I assume granite is like that on the tank build because he's capped anyway. I didn't put any thought into it. Good catch on the +5ing. Overwhleming Force 6 slot? No clue. Knock the enemy down in case they don't get held maybe? Mids says that also enhances damage. removing it drops it from 97.09% to 85.71% after ED.

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It was a straight copy with minor adjustments for the AT IOs. I assume granite is like that on the tank build because he's capped anyway. I didn't put any thought into it. Good catch on the +5ing. Overwhleming Force 6 slot? No clue. Knock the enemy down in case they don't get held maybe? Mids says that also enhances damage. removing it drops it from 97.09% to 85.71% after ED.

I would keep the 6th enhancement of O.F. One of the other enhancements in the set can get dumped.

[Without_Pause]

On 7/8/2020 at 12:45 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Which explains the sucktacular scrapper times below. Stupid runners.

They are all of two seconds ahead of brutes. Based on brutes added mitigation, then yeah, those are "sucktacular" times. Also, there's no context for the missions. I've seen what mobs do when given a damage aura on a brute versus scrapper.