Could self flagging for pvp in any zone be a thing?

[GastlyGibus]

19 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

 There's a clear difference between the regular intended functioning of the zone versus being a literal asshat. It is confirmed by the devs there is a distinct difference between genuine PvPing, and when asked politely to stop and getting repeatedly griefed and harassed.

No there isn't. You entered the PvP zone. Being attacked is part of the risk you take going in there. Sure, they might be mean-spirited in attacking you after being asked to stop, but they have every right to ignore your requests and keep attacking you. 

 

It's like going into a bar and asking the patrons to stop drinking because you're a teetotaler. 

Quote

As it exists now, there should be no PvE-related benefit to enter a PvP zone. Period. If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be any issues here.

The only benefits are badges and temporary powers, neither of which are necessary nor required for the game. With the advent of Incarnate powers, the old strategies of using nukes and shivans have become obsolete. There is no content that requires the use of these powers; they are a very apt demonstration of high-risk-high-reward scenarios.

Edited July 13, 2020 by GastlyGibus

[Zeraphia]

1 minute ago, GastlyGibus said:

It's like going into a bar and asking the patrons to stop drinking because you're a teetotaler.

The difference being people drinking doesn't necessarily affect you like how griefers can affect you. You're not making a good faith comparison.

 

I'm mostly in agreement with these statements, but there are griefers, the jury has been out on this one, and this is not just my opinion.

5 minutes ago, GastlyGibus said:

neither of which are necessary nor required for the game

Please stop using this argument of "it's not necessarily required," at the end of the day, nothing in this game is required beyond a functioning map, mission, and power system. 

Nukes are used in several of my speedruns, as are Shivans are they present a very real advantage in these contests and ARE practically required to participate in these contests otherwise you likely don't have a good chance. 

 

Thus my statement remains, PvE benefits should never be gained by entering a PvP zone.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

Sorry, I disagree! Also never used the word forced.

 

Regardless, you're putting a lot of taxes on badges that are the same amount of work for the badge (certain ones like players killed obviously you'd have to go to an actual PvP zone) minus players griefing you.

 

PvP badges themselves were not well designed. Taking over 100 pillboxes is just flat out annoying, tedious, and long as it is, I really don't think that reducing player-based griefing of pillbox leagues is something that should be dismissed out of the conversation.

 

Further, the objective of rescuing several scientists with horribly designed AI's to retrieve a launch code, which players can grief you horrifically by stealing your codes is extraordinarily annoying, many would even say that this badge is quite possibly the most annoying badge they've ever dealt with.

 

"Forced" is a common argument. People are "forced" to go in to get things totally unneccessary. "Things I want" are not the same as "things I need."

 

Also, players defeating other players in a zone designed for players to fight other players is not griefing. It *is* part of the risk of getting those badges and other rewards. Now, if you read what I said, a PVE flavored zone would have "same but different' badges, so there's no "tax." But as far as nukes, summons, shivans? Yes, those *should* be far less powerful if obtained in a PVE zone. Less risk = less reward.

 

You bring up the scientists, as an example. Yes, their AI is awful. But in a pure PVE zone, it's nothing but an annoyance. You can casually walk back and get them. In a PVP zone, the risk is that someone engages and defeats you, *then* steals the scientist, meaning you have to start over again on that one. Why should someone get the same reward (same, full strength nuke) for less risk? You're not doing or risking the same thing. You're doing something optional that's similar but easier.

[GastlyGibus]

@Zeraphia We're just going to have to agree to disagree then. I'm not even an avid PvP player, but I genuinely like the concept in this game and I wish more people did it. The way I see it, the rewards are meant to draw players in and encourage them to engage. I'm not in favor of removing those rewards by putting them in a new zone or taking away the risk of entering PvP to acquire them. 

 

And as others have stated, PvP in this game is already at an all-tome low. Even during peak hours on Excelsior, I rarely see more than a half-dozen players in Recluse's Victory, to say nothing of the barren wastelands that are Siren's Call or Bloody Bay. I've been able to take my scrawny Defender into those zones to get the badges with virtually no resistance at all. If it really is an issue, you can always transfer to another shard to get the badges, or even bring some buddies with you for backup. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by GastlyGibus
Clarified opening paragraph

[ShardWarrior]

On 7/11/2020 at 9:55 AM, Giovanni Valia said:

*Facepalm Reaction*

You're talking about reporting someone for attacking you in a PvP zone? Huh? PvP zones are for exactly that, PVP. I've had it go both ways where I've been attacked while hunting for badges and have attacked others. If you don't want to be bothered, just go into the zone at a different time? The PvP zones are almost always empty. As for open world opt-in style PvP, I really don't see that happening.

 

Normally I completely agree.  However, according to what the GM posted in another thread, if you do ask to be left alone and others are still bothering you by attacking you, it is a reportable offense. 

[Zeraphia]

Just now, Greycat said:

You bring up the scientists, as an example. Yes, their AI is awful. But in a pure PVE zone, it's nothing but an annoyance. You can casually walk back and get them. In a PVP zone, the risk is that someone engages and defeats you, *then* steals the scientist, meaning you have to start over again on that one. Why should someone get the same reward (same, full strength nuke) for less risk? You're not doing or risking the same thing. You're doing something optional that's similar but easier.

And I actually agree, it is far easier. The only issue is we're in a scenario where the "cats out the bag" now, where these Shivans/Nukes are in many cases required to participate in the events I described in my previous post and retain listings and times based on that. Having two different variations, would mean you're still going to have to go to that PvP zone, possibly engage in player conflict you do not wish to in order to obtain these powers. 

 

Possibly require 4-5 (I'm just spitballing a number here, obviously the devs would decide) scientists to be rescued, make the difficulty possibly more strenuous but same rewards to make up for the lack of griefing, and give equivalent badges like you said that aren't necessarily the same badge name but given an equivalent badge toward the counter of badges completed. 

[ShardWarrior]

On 7/11/2020 at 1:29 PM, MTeague said:

Has there ever been confirmed Word-of-Devs on this?

See here

Asking other players to stop attacking you if you are badging and they persist seems to fall within the definition provided in that post.

 

[Greycat]

13 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

And I actually agree, it is far easier. The only issue is we're in a scenario where the "cats out the bag" now, where these Shivans/Nukes are in many cases required to participate in the events I described in my previous post and retain listings and times based on that. Having two different variations, would mean you're still going to have to go to that PvP zone, possibly engage in player conflict you do not wish to in order to obtain these powers. 

 

Possibly require 4-5 (I'm just spitballing a number here, obviously the devs would decide) scientists to be rescued, make the difficulty possibly more strenuous but same rewards to make up for the lack of griefing, and give equivalent badges like you said that aren't necessarily the same badge name but given an equivalent badge toward the counter of badges completed. 

I would actually be fine with making getting the things noticably harder in the PVE zone. As long as they're otherwise the same (no incarnate powers working in PVE-Bloody Bay, for instance, as you're exemped to 25.) Otherwise it's just cheesy and *even less* risk. You could spawn 20 shivans around a meteor that takes even longer to gather, but if you're a 50+ Incarnate, they're just flat out not even close to the same threat, even "invasion-coded." (Mind you, I think the current exemp rules made Siren's Call much less fun, since it joins the T9-fest of the other zones with allowing powers up to 35, but that's a whole different conversation.)

 

And please stop using the word "griefing" as a synonym for (risk of) PVP in a PVP zone. It is not the same. You throw that out *far* too casually.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Greycat
Clarification.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Ok, so, I've not confirmed this to the point of satisfying scientific rigour, but from what I'm seeing . . . 

Level 22 (30) Mercenaries / Traps Mastermind in Siren's Call.

My Poison Trap does approximately 2 seconds of Hold on a Player, but 6 seconds of Hold on NPCs while in PvP Zones.  Tested on actual Minion-rank enemies to confirm.

My Web Grenade is applying about 2.3 seconds of Immobilize to a Player, and 17.99 seconds of Immobilize to NPCs.  Tested on actual Minion-rank enemies to confirm.

My Spec Ops' Web Grenade is applying about 1 second of Immobilize to a Player, and about 17 seconds to NPCs.  Tested et cetera.

My Force Field Generator is providing me with Resistance to Status Effects rather than Protection, regardless of the source of the Status Effect.  The Stun from the Warrior Crusher only lasted about a second and a half on me while under the Generator's bubble, but I definitely got Stunned (where normally the Protection is higher enough to prevent this entirely in PvE content).

 

So . . . yeah.  It's an interesting mixed bag there.  I definitely want to see what would happen with four players:  Two flagged PvE, each teamed with one of two flagged PvP and hostile to one another.  What would happen?  Devs!  Have you conducted any experiments of this nature yet?  What were your findings?

Some of the PvE vs PvP powers changes depend on the target of the power, and some depend on the type of zone you're in. A single power can have multiple effects if it hits multiple combinations of targets - for example if I use an AoE on a player standing in a group of NPCs, the normal PvE effects will be applied to the NPCs and the PvP effects will be applied to the player. Not every player-affecting power follows the same rules though. Another example: if I get confused in PvE and hit a teammate with, say, Fossilize, it'll deal PvP damage and the hold will only last for a few seconds (if the player had no mez protection, otherwise it would not mez the target at all). If I use Clear Mind on an ally, it will give mez protection in PvE but if I use that same power in a PvP environment it will give mez resistance instead. Melee armor set mez protection toggles/clicks/autos also use zone type to determine their effect.

 

Because of the way some of the PvP/PvE differentiation is done, it's not really possible to have open-world impromptu PvP because you'd end up with a mixed bag of PvE and PvP effects.

[macskull]

20 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Asking other players to stop attacking you if you are badging and they persist seems to fall within the definition provided in that post.

Based on the GM reply after my last post on that topic which said "Yes, you can PvP people who don't want to be PvP'd" I would interpret that as not harassment.

[Giovanni Valia]

57 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

See here

Asking other players to stop attacking you if you are badging and they persist seems to fall within the definition provided in that post.

 

GM Widower clarified in this thread that PvP activities are except from being reported as "harassment". Even if a player asks to be left alone in a PvP zone, the request does not need to be honored. PvP zones are for PVP. All players are warned of this upon entering the zone. Jimmy has also agreed in this thread that PvP activities are not punishable. It's simple, really.

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Giovanni Valia

[SwitchFade]

Ok so, after laborously struggling to not facepalm myself through 5 pages of..... Discussion(?)...

 

Let's be clear,

 

1. If you are in a pvp zone, you're fair game. Don't go in if you don't want to get ganked. This is called pvp.

2. Badges in pvp zones... Are in pvp zones. Those badges are there for a reason, and getting them requires effort. Just like other badges.

3. If you get straight jacked in A pvp zone, this is perfectly legit. Don't want to get ghetto tp'd to the nurse? Stay out of pvp. Still getting hoodwinked after asking to be left alone IN PVP... Please see point 1

5. GM/Dev position on pvp in pvp zones is clear: you're fair game, so be ready, hero.

 

All that said...

 

Hard NO vote on changing badges to be out of pvp zones. They're in there for a reason. Want 'em? Be brave, hero, and stretch out your hammies 'cuz it's gonna get crazy.

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

Based on the GM reply after my last post on that topic which said "Yes, you can PvP people who don't want to be PvP'd" I would interpret that as not harassment.

Wait wait don't pvp me, I wasn't ready!

 

They were totally in the crease! 

 

Mom!  Jimmy keeps breaking my Lego spaceship! 

 

Okay.  Now I'm ready.  

 

That wasn't fair! 

 

I didn't mean you could gang up on me! 

 

Mo-oom! 

 

I 

 

[Sovera]

7 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Now I agree with you actually in the fact the zone is for PvP, which is why I don't support the OP's suggestion, my take on it to yours is different however.

 

When you see a player who is clearly there for temporary powers/badges and means no harm, does not want to engage in any kind of PvP, but is left with only the choice of never getting said badges or temporary powers or taking the risk of entering the zone, and all the sudden a "gank squad" decides "hey it's time to grief the hell out of these poor people with quadruple moonbeam psi Stalkers." There's a clear difference between the regular intended functioning of the zone versus being a literal asshat. It is confirmed by the devs there is a distinct difference between genuine PvPing, and when asked politely to stop and getting repeatedly griefed and harassed. "Dankz" is a well known person who does things related to this. 

 

As it exists now, there should be no PvE-related benefit to enter a PvP zone. Period. If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be any issues here.

 

I'm going to take this a step further.

 

What IS PvP?

 

What IS the purpose behind people being a in a PvP zone?

 

I have done brief plays in games where PvP was forced (such as BDO) and PvPers will wax poetic about PvP being a contest of skill and will, opposing forces where the winner is saluted for their mastery on the class and build.

 

In practice what I saw was 3-5 people groups storming down a single player to kill them. Stealthed rogue classes popping out of nowhere when a player is mid HP to finish them off, then run like mad if by some reason they failed to do so, only to return 30 seconds later once their stealth kicked in. High levels chasing low levels who had the chance of fighting back in the negative numbers. Super twinked characters staying in the low brackets in order to easily kill those passing through in leveling gear.

 

 

Which brings me back to now. I -am- behind the idea that if going to a PvP zone then players are fair game no matter what activity they came to do there.

 

BUT!

 

What is the purpose of the players in the zone? What is PvP? What are players after? Is it fighting against other characters who want to fight back and will produce that battle of skill and wit? Is it hitting an unresisting red name as they try to do some PvE activity? Is it -preventing- them from doing the activity?

[ShardWarrior]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

Based on the GM reply after my last post on that topic which said "Yes, you can PvP people who don't want to be PvP'd" I would interpret that as not harassment.

Thanks.  I had not gotten that far into the whole thread yet.  I had thought it sounded a bit weird in the other post. 

[Marine X]

The way it is now is fine and how it was intended to be, and gives going there a little sense of danger, which is cool.

 

If you want the badges in a PVP Zone, there are risks. Check!

If you want to run content in a PVP Zone, there are risks. Check!

If you want the badges in the Hive, there are 50' tall risks. Check!

If you want Temp Powers from a PVP Zone, there are Huge risks. Check!*

 

*( Even more so with this one, Bloody Bay and Warburg are the only instances of Looting of Salvage that exists in the game, that I know of anyway )

[Hedgefund]

I hate commenting on a thread where I've only scanned, not perused, about 1/3 of the comments, but the topic seems like a tempest in a teapot.  I spend about 80% of my playtime on the PVP Server.  I tend to go for vill accolade so I enter PVP zones frequently for relevant exploration badges and markers.  I also like to have a Shivan in my back pocket for all my characters... just in case.  In all these excursions to PVP zones on the PVP server, I honestly can't remember seeing a target con orange... ever.  I know RV would be a different ballgame but the only thing in RV is the AV/Hero defeat badges and some explores.  I haven't pursued those but based on the broadcast chatter I see when I log off for the pvp days job in RV, there is a real risk in that zone.  When I go after those I might transfer.

 

So I don't get it.  If all else fails, and I were to get attacked in a PVP zone and didn't want to deal with it, I'm a button push away from bugging out, tout suite.

[ZacKing]

10 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

No there isn't. You entered the PvP zone. Being attacked is part of the risk you take going in there. Sure, they might be mean-spirited in attacking you after being asked to stop, but they have every right to ignore your requests and keep attacking you. 

Yeah see here's where you're wrong man.  Going into a PVP zone isn't a license to be a complete douchebag and treat other players like shit or to be treated without respect.  There's no harm in backing off another player if they're badging or getting temps after they've asked nicely to be left alone.  It's called common human courtesy and just like people don't like to be harassed by the slap emote used on their toons ass, people don't like having to deal with douches killing them when they're just badging.  I do this all the time in RV man.  someone asks to be left alone I'll leave them alone or even offer to help them for a bit.  Most of the PVP people I see in zone are the same, but there are a few complete assholes who get off on griefing others who pose no challenge to them.   they know they're pissing off people and they're doing it just to piss them off.  Has nothing to do with competition or skill.

 

10 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

And as others have stated, PvP in this game is already at an all-tome low. Even during peak hours on Excelsior, I rarely see more than a half-dozen players in Recluse's Victory, to say nothing of the barren wastelands that are Siren's Call or Bloody Bay.

Yeah and ask yourself why those zones are dead.  You can thank the handful of asshats who ruin it for everyone else.  it's a shame too because those zones can be fun. 

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

What is the purpose of the players in the zone? What is PvP? What are players after? Is it fighting against other characters who want to fight back and will produce that battle of skill and wit? Is it hitting an unresisting red name as they try to do some PvE activity? Is it -preventing- them from doing the activity?

see this is a great point.  People just love to brag about their epeen and how easy the game is and PVP is the only real challenge.  but then they'll just gank people who have zero interest in it and that's somehow equated to "skill". 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

17 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Somebody who wants all the badges is going to have to engage in some level of PvP.

Why? They certainly didnt back on live.

 

CoH/CoV pvp was rather infamous among MMO and a major blight on the record of Cryptic for a number of reasons. Among them being the main way they found most players engaged with the system was mass farming between groups who would just trade kills with no actual game play involved.

 

Hell look at what HC has done. PvP IOs the only actual reward for PvP has been added to the merit vendors.  So now the only draw to pvp zones is for many, a non pvp reason such as the zone badges and temp powers, most often used for pve tactics.

 

Currently entire zones just sit largely unused because they are left to rot for a niche of the community that has always been so small as to not even rate 1% of the population.

 

 

[Apparition]

5 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Currently entire zones just sit largely unused because they are left to rot for a niche of the community that has always been so small as to not even rate 1% of the population.

 

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

 

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Why? They certainly didnt back on live.

False.  The PvP zone badges existed on live.  While you may get in and out without encountering someone, the threat is there.  Moreover there are PvP badges that require you to win matches in the arena; those have also been there since live.  Even if you traded kills that is still PvP.

 

Furthermore, the size of the niche is irrelevant.  There are a number of players that do enjoy PvP.  PvP has existed since issue 4.  That was 15 years ago.

 

It's OK to like and dislike certain parts of the game.  Everyone has their favorite activities.  But telling others that the way they play is wrong is uncool, unappreciated, and unacceptable.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Moreover there are PvP badges that require you to win matches in the arena; those have also been there since live.  Even if you traded kills that is still PvP.

yeah trading kills isn't PVP man.  not even close.  it's about the same thing as walking into a PVE map and pressing an I WIN button clearing the whole map in 1 shot.  there's no risk involved. 

[Bionic_Flea]

*Shrug* Disagree.  It's not much of a PvP, but it is, by definition one player against another player.  Maybe if you dual boxed it and it's just you vs you.

 

[ZacKing]

where's the risk in fighting someone who isn't going to fight back?  there's none.  trading kills is not much different than dual boxing for arena badges.  the end results the same.  people wanted to bring up the whole "risk involved" with getting PVP badges.  for a lot of them like all the arena badges there's no risk involved. 

[Twisted Toon]

 

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

where's the risk in fighting someone who isn't going to fight back?  there's none.  trading kills is not much different than dual boxing for arena badges.  the end results the same.  people wanted to bring up the whole "risk involved" with getting PVP badges.  for a lot of them like all the arena badges there's no risk involved. 

There is not a whole lot of skill or risk involved when 2 stalkers double AS a controller already in the middle of a fight with a group of NPCs.

Would you consider that PvP?

That happened to me, multiple times, when the game was live.

 

Same amount of risk as when 2 Player Characters trade defeats in the arena or a PvP zone.

Both would be considered PvP.

Both would also be considered cheap victories as well.