Oh, detoggle, how it's TIME!

[SwitchFade]

Time. Time, time. I struggle to love you. I build, I rebuild, I vault through hurdles and endure trials of fire to behold your glory.

 

I pair you with many wonderful secondaries. I read threads by @Bopper and @Redlynne and yet, somehow, I end each of our dates thinking, "well, that was a bit... Bleh."

 

I lie awake thinking of what failing as a human I have, that I cannot avail myself of your glory. I cried a little, into my soup.

 

Alas, is it me, or is it TIME?!

 

So, here's what bothers me,

 

1. Toggles that affect NPCs detoggle when sleepstunheldmezzed. That's just stupid. Really, just stupid. Defenders have no mitigation from lvl 1-49, so the loss of a primary means of power in the set is just wonky. Even blasters can pair acro with the proc in ATO to hit mag 3 reliably, and T1 and 2 fire through mez. This should really be toggle suppression, not detoggle. Sad panda.

 

2. Time, on paper, seems powerful. And, it is. I think. No wait, it is... I think. Yet, there are times when (lvl 25-40 teams) I pause and do nothing and watch... The team functions exactly the same as if I were not there. Two sad pandas at a Pity Panda Party. I can't exactly put my finger on it, but when I bring a kin, storm, thermal, rad or sonic defender to a team, the debuffage/buffsauce is apparent, I can feel the impact AND the team can tell.

 

3. So many single target powers. I mean, it's nice, but, I'm fervently trying to clickie, clickie apply stacking hold thingies to one targ... Crap dead. Ok how about, damn... He's dead too.

 

Hmm. I don't feel the identity. I don't really FEEL that there's a.... Reason, other than the theory and arbitrary specs to play Time. I'm sure, with epics, it matures. But, what about the 20-40 fun? Other defender sets I mentioned have so much.... More.

 

The other defender sets I mentioned just come alive, where time just... takes its time.

 

I want to love you, time, but you seem to run out on me, egregiously; taking your toggle with you.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Hjarki]

For me, the fundamental issue is that Time is really just an armor set in disguise. The primary value of most of its power are to support the user, not their team. Yes, your team can potentially benefit from those long recharge click buffs. In practice, they rarely do because no one 'gathers for buffs'.

 

However, this just doesn't work that well when you're a Defender or Corruptor because armor sets are designed to complement the true power of your build - and the true power of your build as a Defender or Corruptor generally isn't your Blast set.

 

Basically, Time has everything except the key power that makes the set worthwhile to take. This makes it suitable for every build but ideal for almost none.

 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

A thought for you: You're spending too much time on your primary.

 

If you're interested in my perspective:
 

Spoiler

We all have some slightly different approaches on how to tackle the utility provided in Time Manipulation, but the core of that set is the fact it affords you the opportunity to do other things, more offensive-related things. Of all the abilities in the set, these are the definitive key ones:

• Temporal Mending
  • Heals and -Regen Debuff protection? I loves it.
• Distortion Field
  • Slows the enemies down, reduces total incoming attacks which is multiplicative to having high(er) defense values reducing the odds of getting hit in the first place.
• Farsight
  • +ToHit, +Def, can be Perma, can be raised with Power Boost for even more goodness, and it works across the entire team.
• Slowed Response
  • -Def (things easier to hit), -Res (things take more damage), and when stacked with Distortion Field, things stay inside its effect longer.
• Chrono Shift
  • All around awesome power, can be made Perma, impacts the whole team in a huge way.

Then there are a couple more options if a player is willing to use them to give additional support to the team dynamic, and add another layer of protection:

• Time's Juncture
  • -ToHit, -Dam on enemies is big, adds to the impact of all the +Defense from Farsight, and -Dam reduces the collective incoming on top of Distortion Field. A nice to add, but can be lived without.
• Temporal Selection
  • Can be easily kept up on 2-3 team mates to boost damage and general survivability of those few players, and it has tie-in effects with Chrono Shift.

 

The first list of five are pretty "one and done" powers, click it as it becomes available and keep on trucking along. They generally make the majority of Time Manipulations, uh, er... time pretty flexible, and the DF/SR are both "openers" on a spawn, and once you can round-out your Defenses, the likliehood of loosing that toggle to mez slims down radically. By the time you have access to Farsight, its possible for a Defender to build up a significant portion of defense that they're incoming damage and mez woes are pretty low. I speak this from multiple points of experience and having just spent 50 levels with Traps: FFG and still getting the occasional sleep or fear and riding around with only 41% defense.

 

When you talk about clickie-clickie, I feel like that's probably in relation to Time Crawl and Time Stop. In my opinion these are both wasted powers and their net value has almost no practical worth. Others feel differently, by my experiences with Time Manipulation heavily leaned on both being a waste (and I had played as a Controller, and still didn't find it worthwhile to take/use Time Stop). Temporal Selection can also feel a bit of a drag because it's about the only power you actually have to think about using "often" and it creates a weird illusion in the mind that you're waiting around for something positive to do because so much of Time is "set and forget."

 

I rolled my Time as a Fire/Time Controller with Power Boost. I had "unkillable" Fire Imps to run amok with and did keep TempSel on them. I even took Hot Feet I had so much extra recovery and flexibility in the build. Leveling, and even up into Incarnate content I never felt "bored" with my experience, and I never questioned my impact on the team dynamic because I knew--at a minimum--I could solo most of the things we were doing anyway. In a sense I feel if you can capture a point in a build that you know its strong enough to run alone, you know you're a significant add together.

 

Best thing you can do with Time is get Farsight rolling and get your defenses strong (and that can happen the moment you get a couple of good slots in Farsight). If you're feeling a bit squishy/anemic, getting this one thing patched up is going to change your experience above any others.

 

tl;dr Not every set sings for every player. It sounds like this one just isn't a tune you enjoy. Don't feel bad about leaving the character behind and moving on to a new project.

[Coyote]

I'm running Demons/Time and it's a lot of fun and feels powerful, but it's because Time is strong defensively, and doesn't take up as much time (heh) as other buff/debuff sets, freeing me to whip 'em... whip 'em good. It's a tanky set, whatever AT you're on, but the point of an armor/tanky set is to free you to survive to use your other set.

 

A Time character uses Time to have survivability while attacking with their other set (or controlling). Pair it with Sonic to have -Res debuffing for a team. Or with Ice to have a control effect. With DP or Water because they're both fun sets, or Fire because it's a high-damage set. But the point of the character will be the blast set, not Time Manipulation. I mean, it takes two single-target powers to add up to a Boss Hold... in a team, it's not worth it usually, versus just blasting the boss.

 

There are busy buff/debuff sets (Kin, EA), and others that are more set-and-forget, and Time is closer to the latter... a character who tries to play focused through the Time powers is likely to be boring, because that's not how Time flies (like an arrow, I'm told). Instead, focus on the blasts and let Time back them up.

[Ankhammon]

Couple minor points that make a big difference in "Time" management. 

 

First is the ever present break free when you run into groups? the de-toggle of Time's Juncture is a bit of an issue since it takes away such a huge section of damage mitigation but keeping a BF or 20 handy takes care of that. And remember TJ loves to be up close and personal with the baddies so investing in a stealth allows you to get right in there when needed. Also a proc in TJ will help keep everything right near you and in it's effect allowing you to get all the lovely -tohit/-dam awesomeness it offers. 

 

Second, Distortion Field is very good at damage mitigation out of the box. When you get to 30 then beg, borrow or steal a Lockdown proc as it becomes a way of dead stopping a lot of attacks before they come in and de-toggles you in the first place. Add in your single target hold and you have up to bosses held and more with creative procing. 

NOTE: distortion field when fully proc'd is a great source of damage and de-buffing and controlling all in one. 

 

Third, your offensive blasts can be a godsend for helping maintain the situation so you don't get too many de-toggles. Psy, Water, Elec, Ice, DP are just a few of the sets that can really add to your defenses with their secondary abilities. 

[Carnifax]

I don't think Time has it too bad compared to say Rad or Nature. Times main source of defense is Farsight and that's unaffected by this. And +Def is one way to help avoid mezzes in the 1st place. 

 

Rad is totally dependent on its Anchors & Choking Cloud for Defense. Nature also depends on the Anchor -ToHit and a mez aura, plus the heal / recovery patch. All 3 drop if you get mezzed. 

 

I've found mezzes way more deadly to my Nature MM than my Time defender. His defenses are so high thanks to PBed Farsight that he can generally hover-blast away. Also Time makes Sorcery slightly more appealing thanks to the recharge it gives (faster recharge means more Rune of Protection availability). 

 

Quote

in a team, it's not worth it usually, versus just blasting the boss.

My Time Stop is slotted with 1 acc, 1 Lockdown and 4 damage procs. That makes it very useful as a "Have my cake and eat it" pseudo-blast, especially as the 3rd blast in my Time/Sonics chain (they'll have at least -40% resist layered onto them, probably more if there was a Slowed Response opener as well).

Edited July 21, 2020 by Carnifax

[Hedgefund]

Easy answer to the detoggle issue - Defense Amplifier.  Mag 4 protection to all.  The cost is cheap at early levels and irrelevant at a certain level of in-game wealth even for lvl 50.

 

I have no doubt Time was built as it was as a response to complaints about other sets ("it does nothing for ME!") and now I'm seeing complaints that "it does too much for ME!"  Devs just can't win.

[SwitchFade]

So, just a follow up...

 

I struggled this up to the late 30's and compared to storm/water, Kin/rad and a few others, time is just missing too much. The detoggle was the tipping point, but overall, Time felt very 1 dimensional. Sure, there's defense, but that was really the stand out. Conversely, storm has defense, damage, mitigation, control... Kin adds recharge, damage, endurance... Sigh. Well, maybe I'll circle back to it, but for now I just feel let down every time I play it.

 

Ah well.

[Bopper]

On 7/19/2020 at 9:46 AM, SwitchFade said:

I read threads by @Bopper and @Redlynne and yet,

 

33 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

struggled this up to the late 30's

I highly recommend not using my builds as guidance for leveling up a Time character. My builds are purely for endgame with some minor exemplaring capability (whatever the lowest you can go to retain Power Boost or Power Buildup). I highly recommend using Redlynne's or anyone else's builds for a smoother leveling up experience.

 

40 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

detoggle was the tipping point

The lack of mez protection bothered me too when I was leveling up. Clarion was the easy fix at end game, but before that Rune of Protection was my go-to. It pairs well with the Defense from farsight and the debuffs from Time's Juncture to have significant temporary resisrances while also having 90s of status protection. 

[Riverdusk]

17 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

So, just a follow up...

 

I struggled this up to the late 30's and compared to storm/water, Kin/rad and a few others, time is just missing too much. The detoggle was the tipping point, but overall, Time felt very 1 dimensional. Sure, there's defense, but that was really the stand out. Conversely, storm has defense, damage, mitigation, control... Kin adds recharge, damage, endurance... Sigh. Well, maybe I'll circle back to it, but for now I just feel let down every time I play it.

 

Ah well.

Wow, never thought I'd have to defend time as a support set.  To me it is one of the most powerful in the game and gives a huge variety of buffs/debuffs.

 

Time is definitely more than just defense.  It has a ton of control, not even counting the extra holds the set has in time stop and distortion field it is chock full of huge slows and huge -recharge.  I pair it with illusion control and it is amazing how much it makes me feel more like a "real" controller.  To be fair /storm does as well, but /time is right up there.  What storm doesn't have that time does is...big +recharge and some endurance/recovery help and an actual aoe heal (two of them actually) so you can heal yourself the attacks that get through all the defense.  The recharge of course is a huge boon to illusion (but also helps any defender/corrupter wanting to use their nuke or heavy hitters that much more often which in a way is big damage boost).  Then there is  farsight's tohit buff which makes tactics completely unnecessary (so I can afford to grab and use assault instead, more +dmg).   Also a -resistance and a -defense power and some -regen (although the -regen is pretty small, it is there).  Take powerboost and a lot of that goes into overdrive.  

 

There are so many ways to get mez protection now (as well as the high defense /time eventually gives that makes mez much less likely), I don't really consider it that big of a deal anymore.  First thing I do when creating a new character is grab 8 hours of all the P2W vendor buffs that at level 1 costs a total of a whopping 24,000 inf.  That gets me easily into the level 20's even at the slow pace I level.  If you do the DFB route that most do and/or team a lot that'll probably more likely get you into the 30's or even higher easily.  After that grab rune of protection, or spend a bit more inf to continue the P2W buff, or use break frees until you can eventually get farsight and power boost and/or some other defenses that cut way down on getting mezzed and/or eventually clarion if you still feel it is an issue.

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Riverdusk

[Scientist]

To be fair, Time is a fairly late blooming set, and only leveling it to the 30s may not be enough.  If you want to exemp below about 30, I think Rad, Storm and Dark are more effective, and playing up through the 30s, Time may not have enough slots yet in its late powers to see the effectiveness.  

[Bopper]

12 hours ago, Scientist said:

Time is a fairly late blooming set

I dont think thats true. Unless getting Farsight at level 18 is considered late blooming, but that will exemplar down to level 13.

 

Farsight plus Time's Juncture (avail. Lvl 2) will give you plenty of survivability with its Defense Buff, ToHit Debuff, and Damage Debuff. Throw in Distortion Field (avail Lvl 😎 and you will have nice soft control as enemies will have their attack rate eventually floored. Also nice with the set, Time Crawl, Time Stop, and Temporal Mending can be skipped. Not saying they're bad or shouldn't be had, just saying you can grab whatever else you need to help your character in the early levels. 

[Gulbasaur]

On 8/16/2020 at 9:23 AM, Bopper said:

I dont think thats true. Unless getting Farsight at level 18 is considered late blooming, but that will exemplar down to level 13.

Couldn't agree more - between Temporal Mending and Time's Juncture (~25% to hit debuff with regular enhancements at level three) it's very strong from very low. You've just got to stay in melee or mid range. It doesn't offer much offensive support but it's a giant safety net. Farsight at 18 is, as you say, pretty strong pretty early.

 

[KaizenSoze]

Definitely, not a late blooming set on a defender.

 

My defender is very good at dropping drop into sub-30 or much lower and fixing up ailing groups.

[HalfFlat]

On 7/24/2020 at 5:46 AM, SwitchFade said:

I struggled this up to the late 30's and compared to storm/water, Kin/rad and a few others, time is just missing too much. The detoggle was the tipping point, but overall, Time felt very 1 dimensional. Sure, there's defense, but that was really the stand out. Conversely, storm has defense, damage, mitigation, control... Kin adds recharge, damage, endurance... Sigh. Well, maybe I'll circle back to it, but for now I just feel let down every time I play it.

If it's any consolation, my defender experiences have all been that solo play is demoralizingly awful until maybe level 40. Kinetics included. For an archetype with 'defend' in the name, most of the power sets are terrible at defending their wielders.

Kinetics though is great on teams, even with only Speed Boost and Transfusion.
 

On 7/21/2020 at 1:05 PM, Hedgefund said:

Easy answer to the detoggle issue - Defense Amplifier.  Mag 4 protection to all.  The cost is cheap at early levels and irrelevant at a certain level of in-game wealth even for lvl 50.

 

I have no doubt Time was built as it was as a response to complaints about other sets ("it does nothing for ME!") and now I'm seeing complaints that "it does too much for ME!"  Devs just can't win.

I literally had no idea such a thing existed! It would change everything, except of course its justifiably hefty influence cost precludes using it except for very special occasions.

[Riverdusk]

On 10/5/2020 at 6:23 AM, HalfFlat said:

If it's any consolation, my defender experiences have all been that solo play is demoralizingly awful until maybe level 40. Kinetics included. For an archetype with 'defend' in the name, most of the power sets are terrible at defending their wielders.

Kinetics though is great on teams, even with only Speed Boost and Transfusion.
 

I literally had no idea such a thing existed! It would change everything, except of course its justifiably hefty influence cost precludes using it except for very special occasions.

Load up on 8 hours worth at level 1, at that point it only costs 1k per hour.  As said, at end game you can earn more than enough inf to cover its cost or you can grab incarnate clarion.  It is kind of just the mid game where it can be an issue (unless you have a bank of inf available from other characters).

Edited October 6, 2020 by Riverdusk

[arkieboy72472]

I know this is defender forums,

 

but I feel Time is best on a controller, and not just any controller, but a Gravity one. Here is what you get:

 

stackable single target holds, plus a slow, lift, and projectile blast. This allows you to eventually hold and bash any one thing with ease (granted AV's take longer)

 

the ability to really buff (if not cap in some cases) you and your teams defenses almost permanently, plus 2 great heals, one of which adds other buffs as well.

 

The ability to lock down 2 full sized groups at once.

 

the ability to bubble a group, negate the alpha, slip a slow patch underneath the bubble, untoggle said bubble, then completely lock down the group, THEN teleport another group in with that group, all for a tank who will then be up to his eyeballs in doods.

 

being able to teleport a whole group of people into water to force them to take a damn bath (its a fave of mine.)

 

with your pbAoE toggle, you lower the -tohit and speed of bad guys by you, effectively adding more defense.

 

a targeted slow that can be loaded down with procs and made into a quasi blast

 

Also, with one of the controller ATO sets (the one without the recharge bonus) split into 3 groups of 2, you can get insane time added onto all your mez's

 

A cool pet that is fire and forget. Kinda slow, but kinda awesome.

 

Gravity/time is not much on damage. At all. Ever. Propel is a great attack, but that is it for damage honestly. However, if you have ever really wanted to completely neuter everything, it is the way to go. Nothing touches its ability to make bad guys helpless. It is pure control at its finest.