How could we get you to try

[Lines]

There's something in that though. I'm not a competitive person at all, but there are games with PvP or that are built around PvP that I really enjoy - and not because they appeal to my competitive nature. I played a lot of Sea of Thieves recently and had a lot of fun, I think because you could get a lot of mileage and success out of just mucking about.

 

If I could PvP successfully with the same low-stakes, laissez-faire approach I have to the rest of the game, I'd be all over it. But as it stands, I'd be a perpetual liability to any team and I wouldn't care enough to improve. 😛

 

I did some arena matches with some friends a long while ago. We were all on PvE builds and equally inexperienced. That was fun, but it's really slow, even when we started predetermining winners to try and get the badges distributed.

[MyriVerse]

Haven't had any desire for PVP since I left Ultima Online for EverQuest 21 years ago. There's probably nothing.

[RageusQuitus2]

6 hours ago, Krimson said:

My builds range from 1-1.5 Billion, so we are looking at anywhere between 17-38 runs at 45 minutes a piece to slot a characte

Yeah thats more inline with my experiences.  Meaning 30+ hours invested farming, crafting  and ae marketing to io out a build.  Then of course i might want a pve build as well... 

Edited September 13, 2020 by RageusQuitus2

[Lines]

5 hours ago, Krimson said:

(my old crew are mostly from the community of a game called Freedom Force, an RTS Superhero game from the early 00s) 

Freedom Reborn?

[Clave Dark 5]

The few times I've poked my nose in there it felt awful cliquish.  I had no idea what was up and thought I might poke around a little bit on my own.  Got ganked by a group of seven?  Ten? Twelve? players who then crowed about it (with one posting "how come we never see any new faces in here?" right before I zoned, too, ha ha).  I have, since HC, been in there once or twice for a few badges, being chaperoned in with a player who knew what they were doing - and in the middle of the night when there were ZERO villains about to screw up our badge collecting.

 

Goi8ng off of those two extremes, I'd say you need some real community outreach, not hand slapping.  Which I do know some are doing, so good on you.

[RageusQuitus2]

6 hours ago, Krimson said:

So in that case, the farming of a character to 50 isn't really a factor.

And its not.  Getting to 50 is easy.  Funding a build is a pretty big investment to me.

[nightroarer]

12 hours ago, Krimson said:

(my old crew are mostly from the community of a game called Freedom Force, an RTS Superhero game from the early 00s)

If you are talking about the FR community, I'm Lionheart on that forum (haven't posted in a while, but I do still read the forum).

[HelBlaiz]

I was willing to say nothing would get me into PvP in CoH, but I read through the thread and realized there IS something that would make me interested in trying it. Specifically, removing all grinding and marketeering requirements to put together a competitive build. Before I got fed up with the toxicity and everyone I played with quit, I used to play League of Legends in the dark times. Outside of purchasing runes, everyone entered the match with the same amount of resources.

 

If all it took to try out a high end PvP build was to decide what AT/powersets I wanted my new level 50 to be and take the time to slot them up with free high-end gear, then it would be more inviting. Essentially, pvp would have beta server jerk hacking to make experimentation with pvp builds as accessible as possible.

[arcane]

As more of an ex-pvp’er than an anti-pvp’er, I’ll throw out some of my own issues I don’t see come up much.

 

Maybe this is already the case in some events but I wish kickballs would be done without discord in mind. I love the arena PvP in this game as far as the engine goes but absolutely hate that there isn’t really much in the way of casual options. Are target calling binds going to be less organized and effective? Sure, but I think that’s fine. I am a major music fan and find voice chat predominantly more of a major annoyance than anything right now. I also have issues with needing to be shoehorned into the only viable PvP community out there when I think said community includes some really cool people but also some unsavory characters.
 

Other healthier games don’t have PvP engines half as good as this, but they do have outlets for casual, uncoordinated players.

Edited September 13, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Yomo Kimyata]

At some point I'll probably look into it again, but I really don't have a lot of PvP interest in this game.  I'm not worried about the specific knowledge you have to amass, or the specialized builds.  It's not rocket science.  But two personal reasons I'm not particularly motivated to participate:

 

1.  I don't really have the structural skills for it.  I'm not particularly fast-twitch, although I'm not terrible.  And my computing set-up is not particularly set up for low latency.  So I don't see the need to start out at any particular point of disadvantage.

 

2.  I don't really enjoy THAT type of competition.  I'd much rather outsmart a faceless system than beat a specific named opponent.  I'm extremely competitive, but the competition I excel at is not personal.

 

I've played around with various forms of PvP over the years in games, and I far prefer a turn-based system like Hearthstone (for example) over a cut-throat lol pvp system like Eve.  My experience in this game with PvP has mainly been disappointment with gankers in PvP zones.  I don't see anything competitive or entertaining about that.  

 

To the OP's question, I would probably participate if it were a system like Atari's Combat, where all parties have identical abilities, or if it were a more strategic system like a game of chess.

 

[Dazl]

In a casual friendly game like CoH you would need a casual friendly form of PvP. A system like Team Fortress might work. Players could choose any AT, but each AT would have the same powers. You wouldn't actually build a character, you would choose the AT and que up for PvP in different zones with different objectives. This would make it accessible to all, without having to build a specific PvP toon. You could still have the normal PvP as well.

[Black Zot]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:12 PM, RageusQuitus2 said:

Considering the stigma pvp has, how could we get some of the anti crowd to try it? 

 

My preference is zone play.  I know the arena crowd has tried super hard to get more involvement.

 

Just curious what might make someone try it.

 

You can't.  Plain and simple.  There is nothing you can say or do that will convince me to endure yet another gankfest after putting up with that shit for years in other games.

[macskull]

2 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

As more of an ex-pvp’er than an anti-pvp’er, I’ll throw out some of my own issues I don’t see come up much.

 

Maybe this is already the case in some events but I wish kickballs would be done without discord in mind. I love the arena PvP in this game as far as the engine goes but absolutely hate that there isn’t really much in the way of casual options. Are target calling binds going to be less organized and effective? Sure, but I think that’s fine. I am a major music fan and find voice chat predominantly more of a major annoyance than anything right now. I also have issues with needing to be shoehorned into the only viable PvP community out there when I think said community includes some really cool people but also some unsavory characters.
 

Other healthier games don’t have PvP engines half as good as this, but they do have outlets for casual, uncoordinated players.

I think Discord is commonly used even for the beginner-oriented events because it's just easier to put out information that way. If you're not inclined to listen or talk in voice chat that's okay and as long as you make that known to whomever is calling on your team they should be able to work with that. If I know I have people on my team in those events that don't have voice chat I'll call targets in team chat with a bind and I'd expect the player without voice chat to have an identical bind to show when they're on a target. You don't need voice chat, but it does make it easier.

[VV]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:12 PM, RageusQuitus2 said:

Considering the stigma pvp has, how could we get some of the anti crowd to try it? 

 

My preference is zone play.  I know the arena crowd has tried super hard to get more involvement.

 

Just curious what might make someone try it.

Stop other PvPers from being a**holes. Or rather, run PvP events where the a**holes are not allowed. That's the main thing. Teach the newbies. Have coaches. Play with sportsmanship. Same thing as if you were putting together a community soccer league or something. What this probably means is managed PvP tournaments. Regular practices. Regular teams. Rules about sportsmanship. You know, like actual sports.

 

And, I know most PvPers are just fine and play with proper respect and sportsmanship, but I honestly don't give a flip about that, so don't bring that stupid argument at me. Not when the minority can ruin it for so many players.

[Heraclea]

11 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

The few times I've poked my nose in there it felt awful cliquish.  I had no idea what was up and thought I might poke around a little bit on my own.  Got ganked by a group of seven?  Ten? Twelve?

I've poked my nose in the zones once or twice because I am an explorer at heart.  Been there on unstealthed melees and other inappropriate for PvP characters.  I didn't even get the honor of being ganked, there was no one there.  I took on a couple of PvE mobs in the zones until I remembered that even PvE objectives in the open world played by PvP rules.  Got toggle dropped and debt from fights I could have easily handled anywhere else.  Not my idea of fun.

 

Now one thing that might make visiting the zones more popular is if we were to make the Arachnos/Longbow door missions available to a wider spectrum of levels.  Those door missions are played by normal PvE rules once inside.  Problem is, they can only be taken by characters in a narrow band of levels corresponding to the level of the PvE enemies in the zone.  These missions have an XP hazard bonus and are very useful for levelling, and might be popular for that reason alone -- if more characters could take them.  Making them available to any character above the minimum according to the normal exemplar rules would almost certainly boost their popularity. 

[RageusQuitus2]

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

Now one thing that might make visiting the zones more popular is if we were to make the Arachnos/Longbow door missions available to a wider spectrum of levels.  Those door missions are played by normal PvE rules once inside.  Problem is, they can only be taken by characters in a narrow band of levels corresponding to the level of the PvE enemies in the zone.  These missions have an XP hazard bonus and are very useful for levelling, and might be popular for that reason alone -- if more characters could take them.  Making them available to any character above the minimum according to the normal exemplar rules would almost certainly boost their popularity. 

I had forgotten those missions are only available to specific level range.  That certainly stinks, as it plays a part in winning sirens call.  Here I carry on and on in posts across these forums about street sweeping and zone play...  And totally miss that great point.  Basically you outlevel the contact.

[Xanatos]

On 9/12/2020 at 2:08 AM, FoulVileTerror said:

But if we want PvP to appeal to the same kinds of players who the majority of the game appeals to already, then PvP is going to have to change to more closely resemble the game those non-PvPers engage in on a day to day basis.

 

This is it in a nutshell.

 

I used to PVP loads back on live. From RPVP events on Virtue, to 8v8 leagues on Freedom and the Test server. I love how fast paced and difficult PVP is. But I'm well aware that the majority of players are not like me.

PVE in City of Heroes is not fast paced, nor is it difficult. For PVP to appeal to the majority of the playerbase, it needs to be really easy and really slow paced. It needs to be so straight-forward, that you can take any archetype, roll your face across the keyboard, and still win. Because that's what PVE is like.

 

That said, the game is very old. The "community view" of PVP,, its role in the culture of City of Heroes, is unlikely to change. PVP will never be popular with the majority of players. And any changes now would hurt the very healthy and active PVP community. The best thing to do is to leave it alone, and liaise with the PVP community to make sure new PVE powers/tweaks don't upset PVP balance.

 

The one thing on Homecoming that would get a few more people PVPing is to add in a contact that gives away PVP-only IOs for 0inf and somehow unlock PVP-exclusive T4 incarnates for free also. This would make PVP at 50 more accessible to everyone. I believe there were plans to do this at some point. So maybe this is still on the backburner.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Xanatos

[RageusQuitus2]

5 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

PVE in City of Heroes is not fast paced, nor is it difficult. For PVP to appeal to the majority of the playerbase, it needs to be really easy and really slow paced. It needs to be so straight-forward, that you can take any archetype, roll your face across the keyboard, and still win. Because that's what PVE is like.

Not sure I agree with this part of your post.   Just because a player likes this sometimes, doesnt mean they dont look for a challenge at others.  PvP is going to be more difficult.  Even playing drunk, half asleep and distracted by real life (ie 99% of the time) Im still more challenging than any PvE content in the game (I really hope thats a true statement).

[Xanatos]

9 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Not sure I agree with this part of your post.   Just because a player likes this sometimes, doesnt mean they dont look for a challenge at others.  PvP is going to be more difficult.  Even playing drunk, half asleep and distracted by real life (ie 99% of the time) Im still more challenging than any PvE content in the game (I really hope thats a true statement).

Absolutely nobody is playing City of Heroes because it's challenging. They might find it challenging, and -think- they're playing it because it's challenging, but that is pure dunning-kruger. (And actually supports the point I'm making, which is that any form of competitive PVP has no real place in COH, because the playerbase has been conditioned into being incredibly noncompetitive in PVE.)

Edited September 13, 2020 by Xanatos

[The_Warpact]

Me and my SG used to have base raids, zone, and duels on live pre-I13. I would try builds not the usual fare, SS/FA broot, Bots/FF MM, etc when everyone was on Fire Nrg Blasters and Stalkers. I got my ass handed to me but it was fun, because, I was with my friends. 

 

I think if people had friends to go with or be taught by it would go along way.

PLUS, you can't take losing personally, I've seen so many people get pissed that they lose and they never attempt it again and then hate on it forever.

 

There is alot that needs to happen for pvp to be accepted and balanced, having specific "rules" during events is ok but, its a band aid.

 

PVE, PVP, and the game mechanics need to change before its going to be appealing to everyone. 

[RageusQuitus2]

22 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Absolutely nobody is playing City of Heroes because it's challenging. They might find it challenging, and -think- they're playing it because it's challenging, but that is pure dunning-kruger. (And actually supports the point I'm making, which is that any form of competitive PVP has no real place in COH, because the playerbase has been conditioned into being incredibly noncompetitive in PVE.)

Ive certainly taken part in challenging PvE content.  Timed TFs and other missions for example, and again PvP.  I get the content alone isnt a challenge out the box but that doesnt mean the players dont find ways to make it interesting.  No inspiration, no bonus Ouro missions.  They may not be the norm but eventually people want to test their builds or skills.  I do however get the point you are trying to make, and think you have some strength to your argument.

[EmmySky]

Okay.  So I had some time to kill and I took my toon to RV.  I wandered around and got the explore badges, took over a pill box and stood around to get my 'hour in zone' badge.

 

I saw 2 villains and maybe 5 or 6 other heroes.

 

I was defeated um, maybe 12 times.  I didn't really keep track.

 

Even after each one of the villains got a kill on me, they came back and did it again and again, even though they could clearly tell I was no threat and was an easy target.  Maybe BECAUSE they could clearly tell I was no threat and was an easy target.  I don't know what they were thinking so it could go either way.

 

I tried to make polite and witty banter in broadcast, which was largely ignored and when the others started to use broadcast it was a "you're so cheap you use base porter to escape, fight me like a man" and "if you're going to cheat and be cheap I'm going to be cheap and cheat" type BS that turns so many people away from PvP.  Those comments were directed at each other, not at me, but it just creates a toxic environment, ya know?

 

As I was leaving, I announced something along the lines of thanks for the fun, and one of the heroes then decided to send me tells about how to better survive in PvP.  Bravo for good advice, but a little late there buddy, how about after the, oh I don't know, 5th death?

 

I'm not upset about this, its honestly basically what I expected.  I was hoping it would be better, but it wasn't.  I just wanted to share my little story here to let you, the PvP community who wants to lure people in to your playstyle, know what we experience when we go in there. 

 

This example is not coming from an ANTI-PvPer, more a PvP-curious type.  I have created a toon specifically for PvP, but after learning everyone uses Discord and you're a loser if you don't, I kinda gave up on her, she's in the 20s or 30s somewhere, languishing.  Not the toon I went into RV with, obviously 😛 

 

Anyway, ya'll take care!  If I need more badges (really not a badger lol) I will gladly offer myself up for repeated ganking for your pleasure 😄 

[DrBasics]

This is literally the FGC (Fighting Game Community) all over again. Steep learning curve into this style of gameplay and if you aren't already pro, prepare to be insulted like crazy. (a lot of people here are name dropping a few people who are generally nice people, but the few do -NOT- outweigh the many). Then the FGC says things like "we are the elite that is why no one else can enter our territory" and/or questioning why their community doesn't grow.

 

That being said, I can see a future where this doesn't have to be the case for CoH pvp.. however, the STARTING POINT needs to be with the attitude of the community AS A WHOLE

Edited September 14, 2020 by DrBasics

[Heraclea]

3 hours ago, Xanatos said:

Absolutely nobody is playing City of Heroes because it's challenging. They might find it challenging, and -think- they're playing it because it's challenging, but that is pure dunning-kruger. (And actually supports the point I'm making, which is that any form of competitive PVP has no real place in COH, because the playerbase has been conditioned into being incredibly noncompetitive in PVE.)

Rather, this game is a superhero concept creation utility with villians you can use to test your concept out on.  Understand this and PvE difficulty is not an issue. 

[Xanatos]

1 minute ago, Heraclea said:

Rather, this game is a superhero concept creation utility with villians you can use to test your concept out on.  Understand this and PvE difficulty is not an issue. 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Xanatos