How could we get you to try

[macskull]

3 hours ago, DrBasics said:

This is literally the FGC (Fighting Game Community) all over again. Steep learning curve into this style of gameplay and if you aren't already pro, prepare to be insulted like crazy. (a lot of people here are name dropping a few people who are generally nice people, but the few do -NOT- outweigh the many). Then the FGC says things like "we are the elite that is why no one else can enter our territory" and/or questioning why their community doesn't grow.

 

That being said, I can see a future where this doesn't have to be the case for CoH pvp.. however, the STARTING POINT needs to be with the attitude of the community AS A WHOLE

The arena PvP community actively looks for new players, forms teams, and holds organized events. That being said, with very few exceptions PvPers are not GMs and have no way to police or stop the behavior you're describing. It should be pointed out that sort of behavior is mostly found in zone PvP and you can disable chat from the opposite faction and /ignore those you don't want to hear from. Getting rid of the broadcast chatter solves a pretty big part of it. It is incredibly disingenuous to argue the PvP community insults those who are interested in learning while ignoring the efforts of that same community to get new players interested in PvP.

[DrBasics]

No, I'm not trying to say that those who are putting in work to get the pvp community to launch further than it is should be ignored. Again, I am just comparing this to the FGC (fighting game community) as they are extremely similar in the hurdles they are facing.

 

There were people who were also there trying to be the liaison for "new blood" (Mike Ross and Gootecks are major names that people may recognize). Again, nothing against them when I talk about the FGC behavior, but I am pointing out that despite their efforts, the bad behavior did not stop or even slow. Just wanted to clear that up as I am in no way trying to slander the efforts of those individuals who are putting in the work to better their community, and I hope my first post didn't portray that (though it feels like it did judging by your response)

 

That being said, I agree that turning off broadcast can help, but it is not the cure to get new people to join PVP. It would be like me telling you to come eat at a cafeteria where you know people are going to be talking smack and there is a good chance that it will be about you.. but don't worry, you can just insert these noise cancelling headphones. That is not a very good insensitive to get you to come eat at my cafeteria.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, DrBasics said:

That being said, I agree that turning off broadcast can help, but it is not the cure to get new people to join PVP. It would be like me telling you to come eat at a cafeteria where you know people are going to be talking smack and there is a good chance that it will be about you.. but don't worry, you can just insert these noise cancelling headphones. That is not a very good insensitive to get you to come eat at my cafeteria.

PvP is by nature a competitive environment and there is always going to be some amount of talk back and forth. That's true in this game and that's true in any MMO, MOBA, FPS, or anywhere competition exists. Your analogy doesn't really work - I think everyone who is even a little bit interested in PvP understands it's a competitive environment and there's going to be some trash talk but they can also completely eliminate that with tools they have available and they're still left with a fun game. If I went to a restaurant like you described, as long as the service was good and the food was good, I couldn't care less what the other people were saying if I literally didn't have to hear them.

 

EDIT: There have been a variety of answers to the OP's initial question. To the people who simply say "I don't like PvP" or "there are no rewards" - those are perfectly legitimate answers and at least you're being upfront about it. Many of the other answers regarding difficulty of building a character, or having to build a character in the first place, or not liking the players... meh. The tools exist to solve all those problems, the only real barrier to entry at that point is your own motivation to do something about them.

Edited September 14, 2020 by macskull

[DrBasics]

9 minutes ago, macskull said:

PvP is by nature a competitive environment and there is always going to be some amount of talk back and forth. That's true in this game and that's true in any MMO, MOBA, FPS, or anywhere competition exists. Your analogy doesn't really work - I think everyone who is even a little bit interested in PvP understands it's a competitive environment and there's going to be some trash talk but they can also completely eliminate that with tools they have available and they're still left with a fun game. If I went to a restaurant like you described, as long as the service was good and the food was good, I couldn't care less what the other people were saying if I literally didn't have to hear them.

 

EDIT: There have been a variety of answers to the OP's initial question. To the people who simply say "I don't like PvP" or "there are no rewards" - those are perfectly legitimate answers and at least you're being upfront about it. Many of the other answers regarding difficulty of building a character, or having to build a character in the first place, or not liking the players... meh. The tools exist to solve all those problems, the only real barrier to entry at that point is your own motivation to do something about them.

I am actually just answering the question in the title of the thread "How can we get you to try" (pvp). One of the biggest barriers to any competition is fear of failure and the general umcomfortability of being around hostile (sometimes toxic) people.

 

If you were able to get that under control, I bet there would be a lot more people trying out PvP just for kicks and giggles.

[Clave Dark 5]

8 hours ago, Xanatos said:

PVE in City of Heroes is not fast paced, nor is it difficult. For PVP to appeal to the majority of the playerbase, it needs to be really easy and really slow paced. It needs to be so straight-forward, that you can take any archetype, roll your face across the keyboard, and still win. Because that's what PVE is like.

This again all comes down to how you play.  The last time I had a chance to play I was on a PUG led by a twinked-out 50+++ brute who was literally racing ahead of the rest of this "all levels welcome" radio team.  Needless to say, my level 29 troller did not find these foes easy nor slow-paced.  Anyone who wants top play like this can choose to do so (I even stayed around on that team).

[Croax]

I think this thread is very interessting and has shown me some sides that i had not considered yet. I would like to tell you here my contact with PvP and how it was for me.

 

 I am not a helpless puppie who cries when people call you names and i am not an incompetent faceroller who is surprised by the fact that you need a dedicated PvP build. So before i entered PvP i read up on the forum and discord. There is a lot of information if you are willing to look for it. I knew what to expect and just used a build i could find. Since i like to play Stalkers i just typed 'Stalker' into the search function of the PvP Discord and found one from the player @M3z called 'Psi/Bio of Doom' without instructions, just the build really. Now fast forward PL Firefarm and equiping that toon.

 

After this i stepped into RV ready to kick ass and chew bubble gum. But unfortunately i found no one. I relogged this toon severall times but no one was found. I did leave PvP there and did other stuff, until some poor souls would start a badge run in RV and LFM in LFG chat. I immediately logged onto my Stalker and started my Assaults on them. I did not say a single word and was the only villain against 4 Heroes..... it was glorious!

i had not PvPed for a decade and would quickly kill these poor PVE players like nothing else in this game. And quickly the toxic levels rised in chat and tells. I did not write a single word and just killed them all again. After 30 Minutes they quit and i was again alone in RV. That is PvP on Reunion....

 

Time passed and i had not thought about PvP when @Poned made a Post on the Reunion Forums looking for PvPers. I give it a try and was surprised how nice, helpfull and friendly the people of this PvP community are. I was very excited again about PvP when a PvP event was announced that would take place at european friendly times. I immediately jumped on that opportunity and joined said event. I haven't had so much fun in this game for a long time.

There was over 20 people so that it was a lot of teams going on and constantly changing the teams to make it enjoyable for everyone. I was a little bit of an oddball as the only melee AT in the whole bunch. But i had fun and i would love to play that again. I even got a tell if i would like to join a team for some test matches but it did not fit my game schedule since the US and EU are very different on the clock. it would have been in the middle of the night for me. 

i want to thank all the people and especially poned for showing me this cool side of the game.

 

i now even have a Blaster and Empath ready for next time to be in line with the meta.

unfortunately the regular teams and events are all on 2am in the morning for me. I just hope to see some more events or even more EU players in PvP. I loved what i saw and i would love to play it more. Just living on the wrong side of the globe.

 

And this as how a curious gamer had contact with PvP on Homecoming.

[Clave Dark 5]

Well, after that, I can recall another reason I was put off by PVP back in the day: the attitude of the people who posted on its forums.

[Xanatos]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Well, after that, I can recall another reason I was put off by PVP back in the day: the attitude of the people who posted on its forums.

 

Why don't PVE people arguing and being toxic on the forum, or PVE people being trolls in the General channel, put you off PVE?

[0th Power]

I never really enjoyed the arena PvP, but I really enjoyed zone PvP especially in Sirens and bloody bay.  If there was a higher population in those 2 zones I would PvP more often.  To a lesser extent, I'd like to see the iwhatevertheymadeallthechanges changes gone.  

[Xanatos]

34 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

I never really enjoyed the arena PvP, but I really enjoyed zone PvP especially in Sirens and bloody bay.  If there was a higher population in those 2 zones I would PvP more often.  To a lesser extent, I'd like to see the iwhatevertheymadeallthechanges changes gone.  

 

Siren's Call is such an incredible map. And the bounty system is amazing.

[Glacier Peak]

Great posts as always from @macskull, you should be given a forum title!

 

I may have incredibly low standards, but I think this game has so much freedom in it that you can make anything work in any situation. Literally any AT in any situation can be unbeatable given the necessary time and dedication to achieve it. You want to be good in arena? Watch and learn from the community, follow the meta (damage is king, cap hp+absorb, etc.), learn effective voice communications and keyboard shortcuts. You want to be good in zone PvP? Gather your friends or in-game acquaintances and work as a team (just like in PvE). Every ability in this game has a counter (I welcome evidence to contradict this statement). Nothing worth winning is achieved without effort - put in the effort and you will come out on top.

 

I would argue that the above statement holds true across badging, solo-ing content/TFs, leading trials/hami raids, etc., as well.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, 0th Power said:

I never really enjoyed the arena PvP, but I really enjoyed zone PvP especially in Sirens and bloody bay.  If there was a higher population in those 2 zones I would PvP more often.  To a lesser extent, I'd like to see the iwhatevertheymadeallthechanges changes gone.  

I love these zones too! Bloody Bay has such a great atmosphere and canon. Siren's has a very unique mechanic that doesn't exist (okay maybe in RV) in any other zone in the game - it's ambushes/clashes between Longbow and Arachnos. 

[Xanatos]

31 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Great posts as always from @macskull, you should be given a forum title!

 

100%.

[Twisted Toon]

3 hours ago, Xanatos said:

 

Why don't PVE people arguing and being toxic on the forum, or PVE people being trolls in the General channel, put you off PVE?

My guess would be that in PvE, you can avoid the obnoxious people by soloing.

It's rather hard to solo while participating in PvP.

[Bastille Boy]

It would be helpful to have a sticky in the PVP forum with basic facts on PVP for people who are thinking about trying it but aren't sure if it's for them. The "pvp resources" sticky is very useful, but it's not beginner-friendly. Things to include:

1. The fact that you need to use Discord for team PVP. Advertise this clearly! It should be the first thing a beginner sees when they start browsing the PVP forum. This way folks who can't or don't want to use Discord can quickly see that PVP is not for them.
2. The fact that Discord is usually the best place for new PVP-ers to ask for advice.
3. A brief description of the types of PVP play available. Link to more detailed descriptions (e.g. the excellent "Kickballs and You" Google doc) when available.
4. Some advice on archetype and powerset selection for newcomers to PVP. Talk both about what's viable and what's likely to be a good experience for a beginner. Talk about both Arena and zones. There's an image with a tier list for Recluse's Victory that's likely to be the first thing PVP beginners find if they search on Reddit. It could mislead new PVPers who do not know that zones and Arena are different animals.
5. Whatever norms the Arena and zone communities want people to know before they venture in, or a link to a document with the relevant norms. It's easy to find this out for Arena, at least for kickball. I still don't know what if any norms there are for zone.

I tried PVP in spring. I leveled three toons with PVP in mind: a Mind/Psy stalker, an Emp/Beam defender, and an Ice/Thermal corruptor. I got the emp a full PVP build, with the kind help of Void. (This is not the build I posted for critique. Don't use that build!) I played the stalker with a build intended for both PVP and PVE -- not a total disaster, but far from optimal. I never got around to building out the thermal for PVP.

 

I went to two Smol Kickballs and had a good time at both, despite my lack of skills (other than writing--I won the biography contests!). It was a friendly group. The experience was different from what I expected. I haven't played pickup basketball in years, I won't say how many years, and I was never any good at it. With that qualification...kickball felt like pickup basketball. Fast-paced, though not as fast-paced as basketball can be. Friendly, despite being a competitive game. And with tactics that I do not (yet) understand.

 

I also tried zone. Mostly solo; I only teamed a few times. I found the atmosphere toxic. If I go back to PVP, it'll be Arena, not zone.

 

Though enjoyed the kickballs I went to, there are obstacles to doing it regularly, for me: my gaming hours are irregular, and often I'm online when I can't be on voice. I'm not sure I could get online for PVP often enough to develop the skills needed to emp well. Maybe someday I'll build a blaster for PVP, but I'm not all that excited about playing a blaster. I have a bad case of altitis, and I have yet to get a blaster to 50. Defenders, corruptors, and melee ATs are my thing.

[arcane]

14 minutes ago, Bastille Boy said:

The fact that you need to use Discord for team PVP. Advertise this clearly! It should be the first thing a beginner sees when they start browsing the PVP forum. This way folks who can't or don't want to use Discord can quickly see that PVP is not for them.

Yeah I’d rather we not advertise a player-created problem as if it’s a game feature and risk making the problem even more impossible to change.
 

I appreciate Mac saying he’d be open to non-voice chatters on his arena teams. Let’s not implicitly discourage that.

Edited September 14, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Hexquisite]

Okay, so for me, making PvP attractive is super simple.

 

All you gotta do is get rid of the 'other people are involved' requirement. 😄

 

 

[macskull]

36 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Yeah I’d rather we not advertise a player-created problem as if it’s a game feature and risk making the problem even more impossible to change.
 

I appreciate Mac saying he’d be open to non-voice chatters on his arena teams. Let’s not implicitly discourage that.

The voice chat thing is has less to do with being a player-created problem and more to do with the the level of coordination competitive team PvP requires. It's not unique to this game either. It's not just me, though, when we do PvP events there are always players who show up without mics or whatever and that's fine, as long as everyone knows what's going on you can adjust accordingly.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

The voice chat thing is has less to do with being a player-created problem and more to do with the the level of coordination competitive team PvP requires. It's not unique to this game either. It's not just me, though, when we do PvP events there are always players who show up without mics or whatever and that's fine, as long as everyone knows what's going on you can adjust accordingly.

Right. BUT, this game is unique in that it has no viable options that cater to the casual/uncoordinated. I find this game way better than either, but at least in GW2 and ESO you could queue up for random teams where this was the norm.
 

I think the Arena has some options like this but that they have basically never been used by anyone ever.

[macskull]

Yeah, I think the ship has sailed on that one. Homecoming's population is too low, period, to support something like that, even if it were actively utilized.

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, macskull said:

Yeah, I think the ship has sailed on that one. Homecoming's population is too low, period, to support something like that, even if it were actively utilized.

Absolutely true we don’t have enough population to support a random queueing system. In the absence of that, it would just be nice to see more events that encourage casual play as opposed to the current meta of coordinate or don’t bother showing up. I did that a little on live/test for a few months many years ago but don’t have the time/energy/desire for that level of play/social engagement now.

 

I joined the FFA on indom a week or two ago, for what it’s worth. Was fun even if I got most of my kills just figuring out which noobs to farm.

 

TL;DR It just sucks that, unlike zone, Arena has been more or less abandoned by those wishing to use it in casual terms. I get that’s probably not going to change. Just wanted to offer an alternative perspective to complaints like “PvP builds are hard to make” or whatever.

Edited September 14, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, arcaneholocaust said:

it would just be nice to see more events that encourage casual play...

Ahem. >.>

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by America's Angel

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, 0th Power said:

I never really enjoyed the arena PvP, but I really enjoyed zone PvP especially in Sirens and bloody bay.  If there was a higher population in those 2 zones I would PvP more often.  To a lesser extent, I'd like to see the iwhatevertheymadeallthechanges changes gone.  

Yeah, early on I loved Siren's. I do wish the "+5 levels worth of powers" could be disabled in it. I like things not being a T9-fest. Then again, I don't see people, so...

4 hours ago, Xanatos said:

 

Siren's Call is such an incredible map. And the bounty system is amazing.

Eh. The system and rewards need a rework. But it's fairly easy to understand. now if you only would (a) gain some by doing the missions that affect the zone and (b) not lose it because you "left the zone" to do the mission...

 

3 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

My guess would be that in PvE, you can avoid the obnoxious people by soloing.

It's rather hard to solo while participating in PvP.

You've seen the zone population, right? 🙂

 

[Bastille Boy]

5 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Yeah I’d rather we not advertise a player-created problem as if it’s a game feature and risk making the problem even more impossible to change.
 

I appreciate Mac saying he’d be open to non-voice chatters on his arena teams. Let’s not implicitly discourage that.

If there's a move away from requiring Discord in part of the PVP community, that's cool. I still think it's important to inform new players about what's currently common or expected. Maybe instead of saying "Discord is required for team PVP," an intro post could say "Many teams in the PVP community use Discord to coordinate tactics," or something like that.

[EmmySky]

This whole Discord in PvP thing has me singing " I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me."

 

Dont judge me for my musical knowledge 😝