Game Balance & The Endgame

[Gobbledigook]

Having tried a buffed mobs ITF recently I believe that this should be the normal difficulty. It's much more difficult and this is how it should be on a normal run and the buffed mob option should be even harder again and be a real team challenge.

 

Also inspirations can trivialize content so I would put a 10 or even 20 second cooldowns on those also. The AE farmers may not like it though without damage Insps to hit damage cap, but that's why we have buffers in the game and temp powers.

 

Ranged damage dealers safely hover blasting mobs that can't reach them  should be discouraged also. Give the mobs more ranged attacks or -fly powers. 

 

I would give mobs a global buff especially the high end content before making any drastic changes to ATs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mystic_Cross]

I have a completely off the cuff pulled from thin air random errant thought suggestion for making Controllers somewhat more useful against Purple Patch AVs and Incarnate content. Wanna hear it?

 

Ok! here goes, why don't we just..... remove Controllers from the game?

 

There I said it.

 

No I'm just kidding, I'm kidding! All Jokes aside though, I honestly really like Controllers and I did actually have a real idea regarding this. Whether it's any good, or even workable... I leave to you all for discussion... or to ignore. Your choice.

 

The actual idea was to let Controllers have a chance to Critically strike, but only when Containment isn't present on a target. If Containment is present, it would work as currently. I don't think we have anything in-game currently that can do something like this, maybe a reverse-combo system or something like that? Your powers get a ring if your target doesn't have containment, and then the ring goes away once you apply containment, perhaps?

 

OR alternatively... (this one just popped into my head too) What if we could somehow make it so that Containment damage can still apply even if the actual control fails to subdue the target due to control immunity, resistances or whatever? Perhaps using a control could "PowerGrant $Target TempPower_Containment" for 10s and make it unresistable or something? Could possibly be done similar to how the old Tanker inherent used to work on live, or some other way, I don't know... I'm pretty much thinking this up as I type.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying to make the controls themselves unresistable, but rather to apply a debuff to the target(s) of the control, called "Containment" (for ease of communication), so that the Controllers powers *think* that containment is active on the target, and would then deal containment damage.

 

 

[Ralathar44]

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

There are several people who have suggested the entire game needs to be rebalanced. I don't remember who exactly.

It prolly does TBH but that's not a realistic expectation. It's not going to happen because it's way too much work and it's also not going to happen because we seem to be intent on restoring the pre-ED/GDN status quo.  Which is why all I've ever really argued for is debuffs/controls to be more useful at 30+ so that the "my character is a god" can be distributed a bit more fairly.

[macskull]

12 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Having tried a buffed mobs ITF recently I believe that this should be the normal difficulty. It's much more difficult and this is how it should be on a normal run and the buffed mob option should be even harder again and be a real team challenge.

 

Also inspirations can trivialize content so I would put a 10 or even 20 second cooldowns on those also. The AE farmers may not like it though without damage Insps to hit damage cap, but that's why we have buffers in the game and temp powers.

 

Ranged damage dealers safely hover blasting mobs that can't reach them  should be discouraged also. Give the mobs more ranged attacks or -fly powers. 

 

I would give mobs a global buff especially the high end content before making any drastic changes to ATs.

No on all accounts.

[Lockpick]

16 hours ago, Haijinx said:

It does! 

 

Its plainly obvious that it does.

That is your opinion.  My opinion is the overall game difficulty is fine as is.

 

14 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Having tried a buffed mobs ITF recently I believe that this should be the normal difficulty. It's much more difficult and this is how it should be on a normal run and the buffed mob option should be even harder again and be a real team challenge.

 

Also inspirations can trivialize content so I would put a 10 or even 20 second cooldowns on those also. The AE farmers may not like it though without damage Insps to hit damage cap, but that's why we have buffers in the game and temp powers.

 

Ranged damage dealers safely hover blasting mobs that can't reach them  should be discouraged also. Give the mobs more ranged attacks or -fly powers. 

 

I would give mobs a global buff especially the high end content before making any drastic changes to ATs.

So, you tried a buffed ITF and it was "much more difficult".  Hmm, that sounds very similar to some of the suggestions people have made in this thread that if players believe the game is to easy they should use the in game mechanics to bolster their play experience to make it more challenging.

 

I'm not sure why you would want to increase the base difficulty though because that would negatively affect all the players that think the game difficulty is fine as is.  All of your suggestions have one thing in common: they negatively affect players that think the game difficulty is fine as is.  It would be nice if people could come up with suggestions that solve their concerns without negatively impacting others that think the game is fine as is, but it looks to me that most of these players that think the game is to easy are only concerned about their needs / wants and could care less about the impact to the wider community.  There is a word for that type of mentality, but I can't quite think of it right now...

 

13 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

It prolly does TBH

That is your opinion.  My opinion is the overall game difficulty is fine as is.

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Lockpick
Edited quote to make sure it was clear what I disagreed with

[Bartacus]

Just want the devs to know that I'm excited about balance passes. I haven't played in a bit primarily because endgame and poor balance (some OP sets, other sets that woefully underperform)

[ShardWarrior]

14 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Ranged damage dealers safely hover blasting mobs that can't reach them  should be discouraged also. Give the mobs more ranged attacks or -fly powers. 

How are they flying out of range in caves?

[Gobbledigook]

Lol guys it was just a suggestion based on my own opinion which I am entitled to whether you like it or not. I would be more concerned about your own mentality with a response like that @Lockpick, after all this is just a game. 

 

We are all going to have different opinions based on different experiences. 

 

There is nothing wrong with kicking a few ideas around, whether good or bad. But respond in a civil manner or you are just making yourself look silly.

 

Well they can't @ShardWarriorbut everyone hates caves 😜

Edited September 30, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Ralathar44]

3 hours ago, Lockpick said:

That is your opinion.  My opinion is the overall game difficulty is fine as is.

Considering I said it "prolly" does, I think it's clear that it was my opinion lol.  This response is just padding and exact repetition of what you already said in previous parts of the same post.  Why did you have the need to quote individual people in the same post just to repeat the same thing?  You coulda just collected them all together and gave one reply or just not bothered quoting and gave 1 reply to them all.  No need to quote each individually to dole out the same reply individually.  Heck, the middle part of your post was all that was needed and the only part of any real discussion value.  I woulda just chopped the first and last parts off, nothing woulda have been lost.

Individual responses to different posters repeating the same idea gives a different focus and appearance to your comment than would otherwise be there and takes away from the idea you're trying to express.  It makes you look more petty and argumentative.  Having the opinion that the difficulty of the game doesn't need to change is a perfectly fine opinion to have an express, there is no need to individually argue each specific person as if it will somehow cause harm if they are not individually addressed.  This ain't some sort of battle and it's unlikely that any of us have significantly swayed the devs :P.  It's just a buncha nerds on the internet discussing a game they like.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Ralathar44

[Lockpick]

 

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

Lol guys it was just a suggestion based on my own opinion which I am entitled to whether you like it or not. I would be more concerned about your own mentality with a response like that @Lockpick, after all this is just a game. 

 

We are all going to have different opinions based on different experiences. 

 

There is nothing wrong with kicking a few ideas around, whether good or bad. But respond in a civil manner or you are just making yourself look silly.

 

Well they can't @ShardWarriorbut everyone hates caves 😜

Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Have at it.  I was just expressing my opinion that your suggestions would adversely affect those that feel the game is fine as is.  I'm not sure why you think it is not civil for me to express my opinion, but it is okay for you to express your opinion.

 

1 hour ago, Ralathar44 said:

Considering I said it "prolly" does, I think it's clear that it was my opinion lol.  This response is just padding and exact repetition of what you already said in previous parts of the same post.  Why did you have the need to quote individual people in the same post just to repeat the same thing?  You coulda just collected them all together and gave one reply or just not bothered quoting and gave 1 reply to them all.  No need to quote each individually to dole out the same reply individually.  Heck, the middle part of your post was all that was needed and the only part of any real discussion value.  I woulda just chopped the first and last parts off, nothing woulda have been lost.

Individual responses to different posters repeating the same idea gives a different focus and appearance to your comment than would otherwise be there and takes away from the idea you're trying to express.  It makes you look more petty and argumentative.  Having the opinion that the difficulty of the game doesn't need to change is a perfectly fine opinion to have an express, there is no need to individually argue each specific person as if it will somehow cause harm if they are not individually addressed.  This ain't some sort of battle and it's unlikely that any of us have significantly swayed the devs :P.  It's just a buncha nerds on the internet discussing a game they like.

Sure, I am just stating my opinion as well.  I didn't want to create 3 posts responding to 3 different posters, so I combined them into one post.  I think the point is simple.  There is a subset of people in this thread that think the game is to easy and a subset that thinks it is fine.  Everyone is going to have different opinions. 

 

I think it is a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black to state I am being repetitious when I am responding to your repetitive posts stating the game is to easy.  Sure, I have stated multiple times in this thread that I think the game is fine as is.  I have also proposed solutions multiple times that would not negatively others that think the game is fine as is. 

 

I haven't responded since Sunday to this thread because I had basically said all I wanted to say.  However, with the game is to easy crowd continuing to state the game is to easy I felt the need to again offer my opinion that I don't think the game is to easy.  After all this thread is 54 pages now and I doubt new readers are going to read the entire thread.  They may only read the last few pages and may get the impression that a majority believes the game is to easy.  I am expressing my opinion again as a counter.

 

Why is it " petty and argumentative" when I repeat that I don't think the game is to easy, but it is not petty and argumentative when you and others continue to state that the game is to easy?

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Lockpick

[Gobbledigook]

3 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Have at it.  I was just expressing my opinion that your suggestions would adversely affect those that feel the game is fine as is.  I'm not sure why you think it is not civil for me to express my opinion, but it is okay for you to express your opinion.

 

 There is a word for that type of mentality, but I can't quite think of it right now...

This is more than just an opinion do you not think?

 

Did i attack any of your posts anywhere? the answer being= NO. Why? because you are entitled to your opinion.

 

 I am not going to argue over a GAME, that would be very pathetic indeed. but i will have my opinion whenever i want Ty 🙂

 

Ultimately it is down to the developers to decide and is out of our hands so calm down.

 

Maybe a +4x8Plus++ could be added then all would be happy lol.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Lockpick]

40 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

This is more than just an opinion do you not think?

 

Did i attack any of your posts anywhere? the answer being= NO. Why? because you are entitled to your opinion.

 

 I am not going to argue over a GAME, that would be very pathetic indeed. but i will have my opinion whenever i want Ty 🙂

 

Ultimately it is down to the developers to decide and is out of our hands so calm down.

 

Maybe a +4x8Plus++ could be added then all would be happy lol.

No, I don't think it is more than just an opinion.  My opinion was that your suggestions were bad for the game.  I suggested that there was a word for people who want to make changes that will negatively impact others that feel the game is fine.  You took it as a personal attack.  Maybe you were feeling guilty about your suggestions once it was pointed out to you that your suggestions would adversely affect others.  Maybe the word I was looking for was Enthusiastic! 🙂

 

I'm not arguing and I'm not angry, so I'm not sure why you are telling me to calm down.  You seem to be the one getting a little sensitive because I disagree with you.  I am just stating my opinion just as you have stated your opinion.  I'm not stopping you from stating your opinion, but I'm not sure why you believe your opinion should not be criticized.  I have put my suggestions out there knowing full well I was subjecting myself to having my ideas criticized.  People have differing opinions and it is what it is.

 

On your idea to "+4x8Plus++ could be added" I completely agree with this suggestion.  This type of suggestion doesn't impact players that like the game as is and provides choices that players can use to tailor their game experience.  I am a big fan of choices.

 

The Live Devs already implemented it and I could see just adding additional options as listed below.  I assume a number of people would be happy to have these additional options, but who knows?  This is the internet after all...

 

Anyway, I am pretty much done with this thread, but I reserve the right to come back and continue stating my opinion whenever I want (at least while this thread is open, it probably should have been closed 30 pages ago).

 

I want to change the level I fight

• I want to fight enemies that are -1 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +0 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +1 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +2 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +3 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +4 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +5 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +6 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +7 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +8 to my level.
• And on and on

I want to change the number of heroes to which I'm equivalent

• I think I'm as good or better than 1 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 2 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 3 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 4 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 5 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 6 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 7 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 8 standard heroes.
• I think I'm as good or better than 9 standard heroes.
• I think I'm as good or better than 10 standard heroes.
• I think I'm as good or better than 11 standard heroes.
• And on and on

I want to fight bosses even when solo

I want to ONLY fight bosses even when solo

I want to ONLY fight ELITE BOSSES even when solo

I would like to fight Arch-villains at their full strength, not as Elite Bosses

I want to ONLY fight Arch-villains at their full strength even when solo

 

 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

• I want to fight enemies that are +5 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +6 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +7 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +8 to my level.
• And on and on

 

3 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

• I think I'm as good or better than 9 standard heroes.
• I think I'm as good or better than 10 standard heroes.
• I think I'm as good or better than 11 standard heroes.
• And on and on

these ideas might be unworkable with the existing game, due to the purple patch and the aggro cap, which are unlikely to be changed in HC. The rest of the ideas had potential though.

[Gobbledigook]

33 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

No, I don't think it is more than just an opinion.  My opinion was that your suggestions were bad for the game.  I suggested that there was a word for people who want to make changes that will negatively impact others that feel the game is fine.  You took it as a personal attack.  Maybe you were feeling guilty about your suggestions once it was pointed out to you that your suggestions would adversely affect others.  Maybe the word I was looking for was Enthusiastic! 🙂

 

I'm not arguing and I'm not angry, so I'm not sure why you are telling me to calm down.  You seem to be the one getting a little sensitive because I disagree with you.  I am just stating my opinion just as you have stated your opinion.  I'm not stopping you from stating your opinion, but I'm not sure why you believe your opinion should not be criticized.  I have put my suggestions out there knowing full well I was subjecting myself to having my ideas criticized.  People have differing opinions and it is what it is.

 

On your idea to "+4x8Plus++ could be added" I completely agree with this suggestion.  This type of suggestion doesn't impact players that like the game as is and provides choices that players can use to tailor their game experience.  I am a big fan of choices.

 

The Live Devs already implemented it and I could see just adding additional options as listed below.  I assume a number of people would be happy to have these additional options, but who knows?  This is the internet after all...

 

Anyway, I am pretty much done with this thread, but I reserve the right to come back and continue stating my opinion whenever I want (at least while this thread is open, it probably should have been closed 30 pages ago).

 

I want to change the level I fight

• I want to fight enemies that are -1 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +0 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +1 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +2 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +3 to my level.

• I want to fight enemies that are +4 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +5 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +6 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +7 to my level.
• I want to fight enemies that are +8 to my level.
• And on and on

I want to change the number of heroes to which I'm equivalent

• I think I'm as good or better than 1 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 2 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 3 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 4 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 5 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 6 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 7 standard heroes.

• I think I'm as good or better than 8 standard heroes.
• I think I'm as good or better than 9 standard heroes.
• I think I'm as good or better than 10 standard heroes.
• I think I'm as good or better than 11 standard heroes.
• And on and on

I want to fight bosses even when solo

I want to ONLY fight bosses even when solo

I want to ONLY fight ELITE BOSSES even when solo

I would like to fight Arch-villains at their full strength, not as Elite Bosses

I want to ONLY fight Arch-villains at their full strength even when solo

 

 

Going nowhere here. You will twist and argue all day, that is quite apparent, just as apparent as your meaning in the previous post. Good luck with that, but discussing anything with you is quite a waste of peoples time. It is really not a good trait to have. 

 

End of conversation!

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

End of conversation!

Yeah.  I'm out too.

 

Peace!

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

these ideas might be unworkable with the existing game, due to the purple patch and the aggro cap, which are unlikely to be changed in HC. The rest of the ideas had potential though.

Would the +5, +6, +7 work if you were level shifted?  I was thinking with level shifting that you could basically get back to the original +4 at a new +7?  I didn't really think you could go much beyond that, but thought having it further might work with debuffers.  You are probably right anyway.  I read the purple patch entry in Paragon Wiki, but couldn't see how level shifting would impact it.

 

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Lockpick said:

Would the +5, +6, +7 work if you were level shifted?  I was thinking with level shifting that you could basically get back to the original +4 at a new +7?  I didn't really think you could go much beyond that, but thought having it further might work with debuffers.  You are probably right anyway.  I read the purple patch entry in Paragon Wiki, but couldn't see how level shifting would impact it.

 

 

I don't know.

[Solarverse]

On 9/20/2020 at 10:10 PM, GM Widower said:

it might be wise to avoid implying that we have some sort of dastardly plan to destroy the game. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Oh come on! You mean the Devs did not join the Nemesis to conspire a new plan to bring City of Heroes to the ground in a repulsive, evil Nemesis plot?!?!? How disappointing!  >:)

[golstat2003]

On 9/29/2020 at 8:15 PM, Gobbledegook said:

Having tried a buffed mobs ITF recently I believe that this should be the normal difficulty. It's much more difficult and this is how it should be on a normal run and the buffed mob option should be even harder again and be a real team challenge.

 

Also inspirations can trivialize content so I would put a 10 or even 20 second cooldowns on those also. The AE farmers may not like it though without damage Insps to hit damage cap, but that's why we have buffers in the game and temp powers.

 

Ranged damage dealers safely hover blasting mobs that can't reach them  should be discouraged also. Give the mobs more ranged attacks or -fly powers. 

 

I would give mobs a global buff especially the high end content before making any drastic changes to ATs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. Put something like that in OPTIONAL difficulty options.

[ABlueThingy]

2 hours ago, Lockpick said:

There is a subset of people in this thread that think the game is to easy and a subset that thinks it is fine.  Everyone is going to have different opinions.

 

I disagree!

 

On the first part that is.

 

While there are two groups of people arguing that I think there's more then just those two.

 

Personally, I don't think the game is "Too easy."   Not every game needs to be hard. Frankly I gave up on Bloodborne while trying to fight that big buy at the bottom of the hill in a temple thing.  I did that fight a million times and I did eventually beat it but JESUS that was tedious.

 

But I think that changes for the overall health of this game are needed and in some cases that's going to end up making portions of the game objectively harder for some players.  The goal is to only hit the top few % of course.  Anyone else that gets tanked should be rebuffed until they can solo at whatever we're considering a fun solo benchmark.  Be that +0/1 or hell if we want to raise it a bit, +0/3 could be the new baseline(maybe we have to adjust the settings in the notoriety picker to reflect that).   I'm not against lowering the floor or raising the ceiling.

 

I'm against continuing to pile more spinning plates on this already dangerously overburdened system. It's a testament to how durable the game is and how much fun the basic premise is that we're all still here.  But this game, if we continue to pile more features, powersets and content on top of the shaky foundation we have will eventually collapse.  We're butting up against the actual limits of the game engine to allow our characters to even be different. The end game will just homogenize more and more if we're not careful.  And anyone that doesn't fit into the more and more narrow definition of what is useful will be cast off.

 

And I don't mean that someone is going to go "Oh, you're a BRUTE, pffft-- pass." because our community is actually super cool.  And also the game is still so easy that you don't really *need* any kind of specific powersets or ATs and the community mostly accepts that.  This is a fate that many an MMO has suffered that CoH is almost immune to, beautiful game that it is.  But no one wants to be the lodestone of the team.  That's part of the reason sidekicking even exists.* Players can tell when they're just not being very useful, even if they can't see the numbers.  It comes off as "if I did nothing, the team wouldn't even slow down." 

 

If you're playing a Broadsword Brute and can't even get enough aggro to build your bar and your animations don't go off fast enough to to get more then one or two kills before the group is nuked.  You don't feel useful.  The team can nuclear strike the group so fast that your contributions are the lesser for it. But you can see that if the Blaster and the Mastermind swap out for a Scrapper and a Def... now you're actually having a chance to build rage.  You're taking out a third or a quarter of the guys on your own.

 

You see these posts every so often and I've had the discussions in game.  While there is always(and should be) some level of redundancy in teammates.  Everyone should be contributing equally. Or as equal as we can get. Obviously perfect equality while maintaining a large diversity of ATs and Powersets is a pipedream.  But it's one worth perusing.  Right now some mechanics are overly valued because and some are undervalued.  A lot of this is simply due to being able to hit the cap on so many systems and so many other systems being binary.  The exception of course is damage. The be-all, end-all system.  Bringing more +def once everyone is capped is pointless but bringing someone with more damage?  That's almost always an improvement. Most especially for the 50+ game.

 

Now you can say "Oh, just make your own teams to avoid the offbalanced things."  But that's not how this or any other game works in today's MMO market.  Players expect to be able to group up casually and easily.  Someone says "Starting ITF, room for 4 more" and people jump in.  If you have to add another level of self-curating experience it will turn people off.  And as a dinky pirate server with no official backing(far as I know) we really can't afford to turn people off.  Teaming needs to be easy and fun for all powerset combos, all ATs, at all levels.

 

Obviously huge nerfs will also turn people off, suddenly making the game so hard that fun and casual teams are a challenge instead of a "One-handed playing while eating chinchilla" type playing.  I like that about this game, I think a lot of people do.  We could still add in some high end content that needs both hands of course.

 

 

 

 

*wait, I typed that out and had a thought. Something more like the old Sidekick system.  Could we upgrade it to alleviate some of the high level issues of power disparity?  So if someone is too close to the Mentor in level, or even level, they become a "Partner" instead of a sidekick and receive some buffs.  Like if the Mentor has an incarnate slot unlocked it gives them a slight boost across the board.  Or if they have more than 20 set bonuses from IOs.  Or even just a level adjustment.

 

Or something like a leadership style buff for equal leveled partners that buffs them when they're near one another but for every other teammate within that range it goes down?  Call it "Work together" or something.  Then it wouldn't change the balance of power that much in a huge mash of a team.  But it means you could split off from the main team more confidently in open maps. 

 

Maybe it's just for Incarnates to let non-incarnates play with them.  Maybe if it's just two of you on the team it might let you share the basic teir for every Incarnate slot you have maxed. That would be neat if we ever add in some kind of "Incarnate Newspaper" missions.  Keeps the player base from splitting up too much.

 

I dunno, I just hadn't considered using the old Sidekick system for something like this until just now.  It's something to think about at least

 

 

[Parabola]

2 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

Now you can say "Oh, just make your own teams to avoid the offbalanced things."  But that's not how this or any other game works in today's MMO market.  Players expect to be able to group up casually and easily.  Someone says "Starting ITF, room for 4 more" and people jump in.  If you have to add another level of self-curating experience it will turn people off.  And as a dinky pirate server with no official backing(far as I know) we really can't afford to turn people off.  Teaming needs to be easy and fun for all powerset combos, all ATs, at all levels.

Indeed. This is exactly why I don't think it should be up to the player to manage thier way around fundamental balance problems in the system. Casual teaming is the foundation of this game and should be supported above all else (imo). 

 

Unfortunately different people have very different ideas of what 'turning people off' looks like. For me it is an MMO that can't support the teaming dynamic into the high levels, where support AT's feel they aren't contributing and where all AT's start to homogenize in the endgame because they are all built for damage and defence and use the same handful of incarnate powers. For others it is the prospect of any kind of balance pass that might affect them in any way.

 

But as noted above, this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm reasonably confident the devs recognise the problems but whether they can come up with workable solutions or not is another thing entirely.

[Sovera]

While there have been several suggestions about upping the difficulty (such as running with buffed enemies) and using the other choices to make it harder (only AT powers, etc), the truth is that none of these add to the rewards. It is harder content for the sake of harder content.

 

People do not progress from +0 through all the gamut until +4 for the sake of difficulty. They do it to increase their rewards. If +4 brought no benefits then the game would be played at +0 to finish faster in order to do more. 

 

This is a super common theme in Guild Wars 2 where despite the game being incredibly simple and easy the population is elitist to an incredible extreme fostering a very toxic subset of it. They want their dungeon/fractal runs done in exactly 2 minutes. If they take someone who does not know the strategy or does not use one of the community approved builds then they are ruthlessly kicked out or the team disbands if the run takes 3 minutes since every two runs they could have done one extra.

 

We have completely skipped that (thank $deity). This is in part because of the AE. Now those who want to grind for hours can do so solo and not form groups who HAVE to run their Freak missions in exactly 3 minutes.

 

But offering solutions for the heck of it does not work. How often is the extra difficulty used for regular play? At most I activate the 'must be done in X time' just to keep track of things and not for the extra challenge. Using the 'all enemies are buffed' would make an ITF take an extra half hour to finish and we end with the same merits and same inf.

 

This is why the extra difficulty is never used. Now say each adds 10 merits, and the buffs all enemies turns into, dunno, 20 merits? They might not even be efficient but it would be something. My own suggestion of 'all enemies are now bosses' ramps up the difficulty by a fair bit (things do not die in a single AoE volley, they retaliate, when they hit back they hit a lot harder and since there is not just one but a dozen it can easily kill even softcapped squishies) but the rewards are substantial as well since a minion gives something like 8k influence and a boss 51k. The reward makes the extra danger and slowness appealing.

[Wavicle]

15 minutes ago, Sovera said:

While there have been several suggestions about upping the difficulty (such as running with buffed enemies) and using the other choices to make it harder (only AT powers, etc), the truth is that none of these add to the rewards. It is harder content for the sake of harder content.

 

 

Oh, I had assumed we all were talking about harder content with higher rewards IF we were talking about NEW content. Existing content already gives you higher rewards by increasing inf and xp rewards. Incarnate content grants rewards tables. I figured new content or significantly expanded difficulty options would go in a similar direction.

 

 We just hadn’t gotten as far as specifying the rewards. I don’t think they would have to be increased very much.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Wavicle

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

While there have been several suggestions about upping the difficulty (such as running with buffed enemies) and using the other choices to make it harder (only AT powers, etc), the truth is that none of these add to the rewards. It is harder content for the sake of harder content.

I thought that harder content for the sake of harder content was the entire point?  People are dissatisfied with the challenge, and want harder, more challenging content.  If they're actually fine with the current level of challenge, and would only want to play harder content for higher rewards, it seems like a waste of time.

 

Otherwise, you're moving to a new question, which is, how can I talk the devs into giving me more stuff?

Edited October 1, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

I thought that harder content for the sake of harder content was the entire point?  People are dissatisfied with the challenge, and want harder, more challenging content.  If they're actually fine with the current level of challenge, and would only want to play harder content for higher rewards, it seems like a waste of time.

 

Otherwise, you're moving to a new question, which is, how can I talk the devs into giving me more stuff?

If that is what you have extracted from all I've said, then carry on.