Tankers and Hybrid Assault

[ninja surprise]

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hybrid_Slot_Abilities#Assault

 

Do Tankers get more mileage out of the Incarnate Hybrid Assault path that gives a stacking damage buff, or the re-strike for bonus Energy damage?

 

It seems like the old Fury vs Crits debate: Does the up to 65% damage buff outrun the double-hit in bonus energy damage?

 

What have you seen on your Tanks?

 

Edit: I had the T4 Melee on my Shield/Stone tank last night and the bonus status effect protection kept me from being mezzed when Rommie rezzed. That was a surprise indeed, but a welcome one.

Edited October 23, 2020 by ninja surprise

[jojogladco]

It really depends on your slotting. @Bopper has a tool linked in his sig that will let you compared the two. For my Rad/WM  Doublehit blows away the stacking damage but with different slotting that answer will change. 

[Marshal_General]

I have read that its based on your damage multiplier. Under 1.0 the double hit is better and over it the stacking nuff is better.

[Bopper]

Thanks for the shout out @jojogladco. I do have a tool to see if Radial or Core is more beneficial for each individual power. Rule of thumb, though, if you have a damage aura you are likely going to prefer Core. The Radial proc damage in toggles are garbage, so it's almost impossible to make up that difference. If you don't use a damage aura, then use the tool and get an idea as to which you might prefer.

[ninja surprise]

Cool, I'll check that out. 

Swapping between the two T3's on my Shield/Stone, I could see the damage buff stack up to 45% sometimes, but didn't see a big increase in arrest-speed. Switching to the double-strike though, I saw more big orange numbers and that placebo definitely felt like faster defeats. 

I'll try the tool and see what it says!

[Hew]

On 10/23/2020 at 1:38 PM, Bopper said:

Thanks for the shout out @jojogladco. I do have a tool to see if Radial or Core is more beneficial for each individual power. Rule of thumb, though, if you have a damage aura you are likely going to prefer Core. The Radial proc damage in toggles are garbage, so it's almost impossible to make up that difference. If you don't use a damage aura, then use the tool and get an idea as to which you might prefer.

So, where can we find this awesome link? My builds are... um, kinda weird now. I don't know where my i27 elec/em fits for hybrid assault, or my i27 fire/dm (which probably doesnt need assault at all)

 

I don't really have damage auras, or they are slotted weird with only 1 slot each (elec has powertransfer, fire has fury -res).

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

So, where can we find this awesome link? My builds are... um, kinda weird now. I don't know where my i27 elec/em fits for hybrid assault, or my i27 fire/dm (which probably doesnt need assault at all)

 

I don't really have damage auras, or they are slotted weird with only 1 slot each (elec has powertransfer, fire has fury -res).

 

Click the Blue/Cyan hyperlink

[Hew]

Hm, so, its kind of weird, since I don't know how ET interfaces now that it has an instacast.

 

Core is a safe bet I guess. 🙂 

[Maxzero]

20 hours ago, Hew said:

Hm, so, its kind of weird, since I don't know how ET interfaces now that it has an instacast.

 

Core is a safe bet I guess. 🙂 

 

Honestly playing around with the tool unless you are strictly using a rotation of long CD attacks with no damage aura its really hard to find scenarios where hybrid comes out on top.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Maxzero

[Sovera]

You can also test it against a pylon. My own tests showed no difference either way. The pylon went down in the near exact time frame but it is difficult to tell when whiffing can change a run.

 

But if three minutes hitting a pylon with the +damage and three minutes doing it with the Doublehit resulted in the near same time then at least Fire/Claws didn't care for it (more testing might be needed).

 

In a much more practical point of view the +damage counts per enemy hit, so once outside the scenario of hitting a single target throwing a single AoE surrounded by enemies has a good chance of capping the damage buff.

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 10/30/2020 at 5:20 AM, Sovera said:

You can also test it against a pylon. My own tests showed no difference either way. The pylon went down in the near exact time frame but it is difficult to tell when whiffing can change a run.

 

But if three minutes hitting a pylon with the +damage and three minutes doing it with the Doublehit resulted in the near same time then at least Fire/Claws didn't care for it (more testing might be needed).

 

In a much more practical point of view the +damage counts per enemy hit, so once outside the scenario of hitting a single target throwing a single AoE surrounded by enemies has a good chance of capping the damage buff.

I think this is a claws thing. Or perhaps related to low cast time sets. I also got identical times between core and radial assault on my claws/sr brute.

 

Edit: But radial is working out better for my mace users.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[drbuzzard]

That's odd, one would think that the presence of follow up would make the double hit that much more appealing since the proportional amount gleaned from Hybrid core would be reduced.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

That's odd, one would think that the presence of follow up would make the double hit that much more appealing since the proportional amount gleaned from Hybrid core would be reduced.

It is odd. The claws/sr scrapper, otoh, does much better with core than radial. Guess it's time to retest the tank.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[drbuzzard]

Hmm, the scrapper should do better on radial. Wonder what radial uses for the damage base to double. Well maybe better. Hard to say with both a good damage scalar, but also follow up.

Edited November 3, 2020 by drbuzzard

[Bill Z Bubba]

Old test:
BZB Brute
Core and Radial Average: 4:26

 

Fresh testing:
BZB Scrapper Core kicks the crap out of radial
Core 2:43 2:55 2:42
Average: 2:47
Radial 3:19 3:13 3:39 (RNG really hated me on that last run)
Average: 3:24

 

Edit:
BZB Tank
Core 5:54 6:22 5:55
Average: 6:04
Radial 6:03 6:06 6:30
Average: 6:13

 

Attack chain for all three is Followup, Focus, Slash, repeat with Pyronic thrown in when up.

Slotting for Focus on all three: Apocalypse (wo the Dam only enh) + Glad's Javelin CF Toxic

Slotting for Slash on all three: Hecatomb (wo the Dam only enh) + Achilles' Heel CF DR Debuff

Followup Brute: AT IO Set with + Fury proc

Followup Scrapper: AT IO Set with +50% crit chance proc

Followup Tank: AT IO Set with + DamRes proc

Edited November 3, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[ninja surprise]

On 11/3/2020 at 11:48 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Edit:
BZB Tank
Core 5:54 6:22 5:55
Average: 6:04
Radial 6:03 6:06 6:30
Average: 6:13

To confirm (because I hate the names of the incarnate powers) Core is the build-up damage buff and Radial is the double-hit damage right?

Are all these Bills Claws/SR?

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

To confirm (because I hate the names of the incarnate powers) Core is the build-up damage buff and Radial is the double-hit damage right?

Are all these Bills Claws/SR?

Correct and yes.

[Sir Myshkin]

Core can be explained on Scrappers and Stalkers on Criticals, they favor +Dam by a significant amount more than Brutes/Tankers in that regard. The Radial procs only scale off a base portion of damage in an attack. I did a ton of raw testing both Core and Radial both before and after Tanker buffs which gave me a pretty decent insight, and revealed some general rules drawn in the sand.

 

Radial highly favors sets with low modifiers and get poor scaling on +Dam buffs. For all that an additional 75% might grant, sometimes just double the starting value via proc turned better results. Tankers used to sit right in that zone of “meh” and the lean was more Radial originally, but shifted Core post buff because they now get marginally more benefit from it. As Bopper’s tool can demonstrate however, there can be a bit of a mixed bag still on some sets based on initial base values and animation times. Some attacks have low modifiers and fast animations whereas others have higher modifiers and long animations. Titan Weapons is an interesting case of such where a few attacks have strong mods and get applied faster than normal with Momentum. Super Strength is another example where the attacks have relatively low base points but get aggressively boosted and see much more opportunities out of Core rather than Radial by a decent amount, however this leads into a unique case point about choosing between Core and Radial in general:

 

If you’re capable of hitting ~300% damage buff (or more) with a high uptime, then going Radial may often be the better choice. After 300% on Melee/Blasters there’s diminished returns for most attacks outside of a few high mod cases. Most sets can’t achieve this solo so it won’t be a ton of cases, but if you’re teaming a lot in scenarios where +Dam is being brought en masse to the table then Radial is going to have wider value, especially so if there’s a Kin around damage-capping the team.

 

I am personally a strong proponent of Hybrid Assault Core, but unless you’re intention is to primarily solo my common suggestion these days is to probably go with Radial since there will never be a case where you don’t get benefit from it.

[ExeErdna]

From my playing with builds on the test server Hybrid Assault Core is oppressively good when you can notice it. Like I been running a Fire/Fire tanker and I do notice a different between both core and radial. With any sort of dots would want core over radial, it's easier to keep the stacks up. Radial is weird like when it works its really cool yet core is just safe for so many builds. Assault Core has the same "set it and forget it" that Support Radial has when something just works because they're in your damage it's good. Assault Radial is good when you have powerful single strikes like EM, SS, WM, Axe, TW. YET if they have good AOE they also take well from Core due to being to keep stacks up. SO something like MA, SS and EM are like the "best" for radial from what I've played with.