Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[DreadShinobi]

4 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Well again, if you tie it into barrage you've now made people take it if they want that mechanic and if they don't, you've now taken away a prong of the mechanic by an easily skipped power. So with the idea that an easy-skip power has taken away part of the mechanic, you'll need to re-eval how strong PC and ET are. If you put it in both, you maintain the mechanic being there 100% of the time and keep the balance.

 

I don't really get the BS complaint in the first place, ET recharges faster than TF so it'll always surely be up. Using EF on BS is a player error and not a mechanical failure. You can't accidentally build EF atm so I don't see how you could accidentally spend it

 

@Taboo test it before judging it so harshly lol , It's possible you still won't like it but more than 1 mind got changed already 😛

 

The bonesmasher complaint is specific to Stalkers and Scrappers, who can build 2 stacks of EF on a crit with TF. It is not relevant to brutes/tankers who just build 1 stack of EF at a time. If you're a stalker/scrapper and you have 2 stacks of EF, ideally you want to spend both those stacks on ET, which locks you out of using BS before you cast the second ET if you want the fast animation. This can lead to player mistakes or gapping your attack chain so that you don't mess up your second ET by casting BS. Also after you cast the second ET, your TF is recharged further locking you out of casting BS if you don't want to mess up your attack chain.

Edited October 28, 2020 by DreadShinobi

[Super Atom]

18 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

The bonesmasher complaint is specific to Stalkers and Scrappers, who can build 2 stacks of EF on a crit with TF. It is not relevant to brutes/tankers who just build 1 stack of EF at a time. If you're a stalker/scrapper and you have 2 stacks of EF, ideally you want to spend both those stacks on ET, which locks you out of using BS before you cast the second ET if you want the fast animation. This can lead to player mistakes or gapping your attack chain so that you don't mess up your second ET by casting BS. 

I get that, but you have more than those abilities. It may not literally be the most optimal amount of damage but you could use Energy Punch / Whirling hands then ET would likely be up on a build that optimal rotation would even matter on. On a build where recharge wasn't even my focus, my ET is recharging in about 4 seconds, That's not really much of a wait for such a strong ability and for it to be instant. If you drop down to the SO level, "optimal rotation" honestly doesn't matter if we're being real.

 

Actually i take it back, it -is- the optimal amount of damage. Wanting to have TWO fast ET's one after another is kind of a silly ask and yet they've still provided a way to do that within 4 seconds.

 

Edit2; to comment on your edit, If you did BU>BS> TF>ET>WH>EP>ET>TF>EP >ET>BS you've got two fast ET's and two BS used.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Super Atom

[DreadShinobi]

3 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

Emphasis mine. 

 

Have to say I agree with this. I've gotten into spots where I'd use Bar>TF instead of BS>TF and then be stuck with either burning my charge on BS or waiting a few seconds until ET is recharged. I usually choose to wait, because it feels that much more important to get that 'fast' ET. About the only time I'd actually consider burning a charge on BS would be fighting an AV/GM/Pylon... and even then I'd probably still question whether it wouldn't just be better to wait a few more seconds for 'fast' ET instead.

 

Frankly, I don't enjoy those short moments of "WTF do I do?! Wait or..." it prevents immersion for me.

 

This is what is being reffered to, and has nothing to do with being some kind of demigod. No matter what level of play I am at, I will always rather just spam a few more energy punches than lose my second EF stack to BS. As has already been said everyone loves basic bonesmasher. I personally don't want to feel punished for using it liberally.

Edited October 28, 2020 by DreadShinobi

[DreadShinobi]

29 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

 

Edit2; to comment on your edit, If you did BU>BS> TF>ET>WH>EP>ET>TF>EP >ET>BS you've got two fast ET's and two BS used.

That's true I could play an attack chain like that, but then I'd feel like I am playing a dual blades combo system, and that's what a lot of people do not want.

[Myrmidon]

If Energy Focus is removed from Bonesmasher, what will Tankers get to compensate?

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

That's true I could play an attack chain like that, but then I'd feel like I am playing a dual blades combo system, and that's what a lot of people do not want.

That rotation would be specifically for Crits, if you're looking to maximize your DPS as you stated. the system there or not, optimal rotation exists and will never change. If you didn't get a crit, it could easily be BU>TF>ET>BS or BU>EP>TF>ET>BS or any combination there of. It's not set and does give you breathing room. If you want to talk about un-optimal rotations that's a different story, because at that rate, it means you don't care if your DPS is maximized or not and such things like EF wouldn't really matter anyway.

 

You could create a maximum DPS rotations on any set, mechanic or otherwise. Not gonna lie, theres a lot of times where even on sets with gimmicks when doing brain-dead content i just mash buttons regardless because everything is dying instant anyway.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Super Atom

[Kanil]

okay, went ahead and did some live mission/aoe testing for EM scrapper vs. my other sets so try and compare them. i ended up trying to supplement the set's lack of great AOEs with fireball.

 

as usual, my method was testing by running mender ramiel's defeat trapdoor mission at +4x8. all incarnates, similar rules to pylon testing where you don't use hybrid active nor lore pets - only destiny and yellow insps for the blinds that the arachnos do. you kill everything up to trapdoor except the popup turrets (this favors ranged by a lot to run off to the sides) and then waste trapdoor. timer starts when you self-buff w/ destiny or whatever, ends when trapdoor turns blue.

 

why trapdoor? it has a good combination of enemies, is a straight line with room for enemies to flee still and a decently sturdy EB at the end.

 

 

the general strategy was to open with TF (with crit strikes procced because it's got an insanely high chance to fire off), fireball, whirling hands, power crush (with focus on). that's pretty much it. you just keep doing that or go into ET/bonesmasher to pick off stragglers. if melt armor was up, i'd use it on the next possible group.

 

times are as such:

EM/bio/fire scrapper
6m34s - 1st run
5m44s
6m2s
5m48s
5m41s
5m43s
5m57s
5m21s
5m42s

 

now, those are pretty meaningless by themselves without context, so here's a giant list of times i just ran on a bunch of chars:

Spoiler

beta tw/bio:
5m12s
5m22s
6m7s (enemy scattering)
6m1s (spent time healing due to -def from t.mistresses)
5m42s (the hell is with all the x:x2 enders?)

 

live tw/bio:
5m24s
4m48s
4m51s
4m54s
5m18s
 
fire/bio/fire scrapper
4m48s
5m27s
5m12s
4m46s
4m56s
4m48s
4m58s
5m16s

 

ba/bio/phys scrapper
5m25s
5m15s
5m46s
5m30s

 

kat/bio scrapper
5m35s
5m12s
5m19s
4m58s

 

ice/bio/mu scrapper
4m46s
4m36s
5m17s
4m41s

 

fire/time/dark corr
6m26s

 

fortunata/soul
4m51s

 

so, yeah. it seems pretty alright in AOE - pretty much middle of the road as far as i can tell. power crush is a bit disappointing for AOE purposes, but as a non-weapon set you have the advantage of not having to deal with redraw times for stuff, so it's something to consider re: picking up fireball or ball lightning. nothing too out of the blue there, i guess, but a tad disappointing when the ST results that i've been able to muster have been just kinda "ok"

Edited October 28, 2020 by Kanil

[DreadShinobi]

16 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

If Energy Focus is removed from Bonesmasher, what will Tankers get to compensate?

Barrage has already been mentioned as a suitable replacement to provide a 100% chance stun and regen debuff. 

14 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

That rotation would be specifically for Crits, if you're looking to maximize your DPS as you stated. the system there or not, optimal rotation exists and will never change. If you didn't get a crit, it could easily be BU>TF>ET>BS or BU>EP>TF>ET>BS or any combination there of. It's not set and does give you breathing room. If you want to talk about un-optimal rotations that's a different story, because at that rate, it means you don't care if your DPS is maximized or not and such things like EF wouldn't really matter anyway.

I'm sort of in between, and my posts aren't really about min-maxing dps, it's about the feel of the set, such as in the post I quoted from @Mystic_Cross. And moreso than maximizing my DPS I'd prefer a simpler/looser attack chain where I can still fast cast 2 ETs on a crit TF (because TF only crits for +28% damage, and ET cannot crit for additional damage at all on crit based archetypes, so there should be some payoff, which is in the form of a second stack of EF, so yes the usage of that second stack does matter).

Edited October 28, 2020 by DreadShinobi

[Myrmidon]

4 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

Barrage has already been mentioned as a suitable replacement to provide a 100% chance stun and regen debuff.

Interesting. No change for you and Tankers get something useful on a power their stick with. You could have just led with that.🤣

[DreadShinobi]

6 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

Why not just remove the bone smasher combo and add the stun combo to barrage?   This allows people to build for the stun combo if they want and frees up bone smasher.

 

It would also give tanks “something” for being stuck with barrage.  It would give them some more cc which is somewhat what tanks do, and at low levels where they need it most.  

@Myrmidon

[Super Atom]

21 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

Barrage has already been mentioned as a suitable replacement to provide a 100% chance stun and regen debuff. 

I'm sort of in between, and my posts aren't really about min-maxing dps, it's about the feel of the set, such as in the post I quoted from @Mystic_Cross. And moreso than maximizing my DPS I'd prefer a simpler/looser attack chain where I can still fast cast 2 ETs on a crit TF (because TF only crits for +28% damage, and ET cannot crit for additional damage at all on crit based archetypes, so there should be some payoff, which is in the form of a second stack of EF, so yes the usage of that second stack does matter).

ET recharges so quickly all you honestly need to do is use whirling hands or barrage or EP or maybe an epic or power pool ability or incarnate. Literally anything else for 4 seconds and then you get a second fast ET. Are you saying 4 seconds and 1 ability that could be a lot of things is too restricting?

 

We've already established you can hit 3 fast ET's in 1 BU cycle. if you're the big sweaty.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Super Atom

[Bopper]

36 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

ET recharges so quickly all you honestly need to do is use whirling hands or barrage or EP or maybe an epic or power pool ability or incarnate. Literally anything else for 4 seconds and then you get a second fast ET. Are you saying 4 seconds and 1 ability that could be a lot of things is too restricting?

 

We've already established you can hit 3 fast ET's in 1 BU cycle. if you're the big sweaty.

Pretty much. Just use an epic snipe.

 

TF > ET (fast) > EP > Zapp > ET (fast or slow)

 

If your recharge isn't high enough you can sprinkle in another EP.

[Super Atom]

 

This is about where I'm at with it and as i said above, not even really slotting for recharge specifically.

 

note; I do have 2 purple sets and 3 lotgs. I'm a EM/Rad brute. So in combat, It's even shorter 😛 I go from TF>ET>EP>ET without downtime.

 

Obviously SO gameplay does not apply here.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Super Atom

[Infinitum]

We keep calling it a combo mechanic, 

 

And comparing it to STJ and DB

 

Its nothing like that.

 

You don't have to use a sequence of builders 3 times to reach max potential.

 

You dont have to use any one of 4sequences of powers to give any 1 of 4 different bonuses.

 

You literally just activate 1 really good power - that you would anyway and the. Choose between 3 other really good powers - the most obvious being the one shot single fist of death cannon.  Then you keep doing that.

 

Its hardly complex, and even if you didnt have the mechanic you would still have both in your attack chain because they are good powers to use.

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

note; I do have 2 purple sets and 3 lotgs. I'm a EM/Rad brute. So in combat, It's even shorter 😛 I go from TF>ET>EP>ET without downtime.

ET can't recharge that fast. You'd be looking at a 1-2s gap between EP>ET

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

ET can't recharge that fast. You'd be looking at a 1-2s gap between EP>ET

Ok let me rephrase, downtime i dont* personally think is bothersome or noticeable enough to think is a problem.

 

Also while I'm @'ing you and you'd probably know the math better than me, with capped recharge and burnout and a little bit of luck, could you hit four fast ET's on a scrapper in one BU window?

Edited October 28, 2020 by Super Atom

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Ok let me rephrase, downtime i personally think is bothersome or noticeable enough to think is a problem.

 

Also while I'm @'ing you and you'd probably know the math better than me, with capped recharge and burnout and a little bit of luck, could you hit four fast ET's on a scrapper in one BU window?

I'm not at a computer, but let me try to work it out here...math in public, let's see how it goes.

 

TF (crit) > BU > ET > BO > ET > TF > ET > stuff > ET

 

Starting at the end of BU, we have the following arcana times:

1.188+1.188+1.188+2.772+1.188 then stuff.

So far, we are at 7.524s. ET can recharge in as little as 2s (capped recharge), and we just need to be within the window for a moment to retain the buff. So yes, it is possible in theory, but incredibly difficult. You have that 2.476s window to try to fit that 4th ET in. If you can recharge in 2.3s, that would require +335% recharge, leaving you with about 0.1s to fire off the 4th ET.

[siolfir]

5 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Interesting. No change for you and Tankers get something useful on a power their stick with. You could have just led with that.🤣

I did. Pages ago.

[jdos911]

As an "old school" EM fan and someone who is not a huge number cruncher, doesn't necessarily hunt for "optimal" attack chains, and has never punched a pylon outside of an MSR for any reason, here's my $.02 on the "feel" of the set revamp after some playtime as a Elec/EM tank copied directly from Live (incarnate, but not purpled) and a new EM/Nin Scrapper (purpled, but no incarnates)

 

Overall, the set feels...fine.  Certainly a vast improvement on the current state of EM on HC/Live.  The new TF is amazing.  Didn't really notice a huge difference in BS, EP or WH.  I'm a fan of Power Crash, and find myself using it to thin bigger groups, even in lieu of a fast ET. 

 

I also don't mind the Focus mechanic as much as I thought I might.   The fact that it gives me back my old friend fast ET, well, tyvm!  Would I rather have it back 100% of the time?  Sure.  But I'm happy to have it back at all, and the improvement to TF makes the TF > fET combo pretty much 100% anyway, at least to the point I've accidentally killed myself spamming fast ETs in big groups several times while not paying attention to my own health.

 

That being said, I have only one minor criticism when it comes to the double Focus mechanic on Scrappers and Stalkers...

6 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

...I will always rather just spam a few more energy punches than lose my second EF stack to BS. As has already been said everyone loves basic bonesmasher. I personally don't want to feel punished for using it liberally.

I'd like to second this.  There's nothing "wrong" with Focused BS, per se, there's simply no use case for it on a Scrapper or Stalker.  There is no scenario where it is a preferred option over another fast ET or a Power Crash, and it actually feels a little weird, and a bit punitive, to have to actively *avoid* using it when you have a 2nd stored Focus.  It's not the end of the world, but it does require changing up your attack chain on the fly so as not to "waste" the 2nd Focus.

 

Even on a Tank, aside from leveling, I don't really see Focused BS as terribly desirable, or useful, either.  Maybe the -regen comes in handy in a prolonged AV or Monster fight?  I guess that's the one scenario I haven't really tested yet.  But the set stuns enough on its own that a 100% guaranteed stun isn't much of an incentive to use Focused BS as a one-off.  Fast ET and wide PC seem to always be better options.

 

It's a minor thing, but maybe an opportunity for some fine(r) tuning.

 

 

[Replacement]

Dear Powerhouse,

For just one build, please set Energy Transfer cooldown to 1 second.

 

I look forward to testing the community's capacity for self-immolation.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

I did. Pages ago.

There is far more than Energy Melee to take a look at and, I have to say that this thread being the first to even come close to hitting 100 pages wasn’t even a choice in the pool (mine was basepasscode). 

 

In the end, no matter the adjustments, the Captain won’t fails us (as the old Devs did) with this set.

[ABlueThingy]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

I'm not at a computer, but let me try to work it out here...math in public, let's see how it goes.

 

TF (crit) > BU > ET > BO > ET > TF > ET > stuff > ET

 

Starting at the end of BU, we have the following arcana times:

1.188+1.188+1.188+2.772+1.188 then stuff.

So far, we are at 7.524s. ET can recharge in as little as 2s (capped recharge), and we just need to be within the window for a moment to retain the buff. So yes, it is possible in theory, but incredibly difficult. You have that 2.476s window to try to fit that 4th ET in. If you can recharge in 2.3s, that would require +335% recharge, leaving you with about 0.1s to fire off the 4th ET.

So what you're saying is the playstyle I want, which is being able to render my life force down into stupid amounts of damage, doesn't require really any changes and Powerhouse already accounted for this.

 

It's just on Stalkers/Scrappers.  My-Hero-Academiaing themselves by cheesing some crits and using the bonus focus in a BU window to squeeze off too many ETs

 

...It kind of makes sense that Tanks/Brutes can't kill themselves as easily but Scrappers/Stalkers can. 

 

But now it means I wasted my time with that post because Captain Powerhouse was already one step ahead of me.

 

FOILED AGAIN. (Thank you capt'n)

[AerialAssault]

So, I got back from doing some very quick and not very extensive tests with an Energy Melee/Bio Armour Stalker. I built them with a 'budget' build, using no Very Rares & only a few rare sets. No Incarnate powers. I was running some +2/x4 w/ Bosses missions. Not a very high bar, but I was testing it against my 'normal' and not against the higher bars of others. I very rarely play +4/x8 solo on any character so it's not something I'd bother to do.

 

My conclusion is that it does an insane amount of single-target damage. Build-Up -> Assassin's Strike -> Total Focus -> Energy Transfer is a rotation that can destroy a +3 Boss with little difficulty. Power Crash is effective at thinning the mob through stuns and just pure damage (although I am aware that will be getting tweaked, for the best I feel.)

 

I would have to disagree with the calls for Total Focus + Energy Transfer to deal full Critical damage. Even without it, it's still an absolutely eye-watering amount of damage to throw out in a short period of time. You also have to consider on a Stalker that you also have your quick firing Assassin's Strike, which can crit, and is effectively a faster Total Focus that doesn't Hold the enemy. If they had three Extreme damage attacks that could crit, what could possibly pose a threat? And let's not forget that all of these powers have relatively short cooldowns. I feel that this would tip the balance of power too far into Energy Melee's favour.

 

NOW, that being said .. as I have already mentioned, I would be interested to see what life would be like if they could crit for the full amount. You know, just to see what it could do.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

New EM/Bio Scrapper  T4 Musc core, T4 Assault Radial, T4 Ageless Core, T4 Degenerative Core.

 

Best time without using Assault is -- 71 seconds

 

Best time with Assault is-- 55 seconds  <<< 825 dps?  / 36 seconds with BP lore pets out <<<< 1193 dps?

 

170% recharge. TF-ET-Moonbeam-EP-BS repeat.

[Gobbledigook]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

3 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

New EM/Bio Scrapper  T4 Musc core, T4 Assault Radial, T4 Ageless Core, T4 Degenerative Core.

 

Best time without using Assault is -- 71 seconds

 

Best time with Assault is-- 55 seconds  <<< 825 dps?  / 36 seconds with BP lore pets out <<<< 1193 dps?

 

170% recharge. TF-ET-Moonbeam-EP-BS repeat.

I do hope my math is correct now. Just check the dps numbers it could be wrong lol. But those were the times.