Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

ET recharges so fast though you have a good 3 chances to consume focus with ET.

The "good 3 chances to consume focus with ET" also implies you don't use Bone Smasher (or PC) in the meantime - missing with ET and following up with BS is one of the times I burned EF with it.

 

Of course, I've been told that using Bone Smasher is abusive, though.

[siolfir]

8 hours ago, Bopper said:

It doesn't seem to indicate that from the power files. The 1s animation has the effect applied at 0.83s. The 2.67s animation has the effect applied at 2.2s.

That might be the problem then, the Hit Time for Power Thrust (using the same animation) is at 0.5s - this would explain why some people are saying it feels off.

[Troo]

8 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

Tanks and Brutes can't get a 2nd EF stack. Doing TF>wait>TF doesn't work, it doesn't even refresh the timer. I just attempted it on my tank.

 

Thanks for confirming.

 

There are some aspects that feel a little off, maybe the plan is to address them and dial things in. Regardless, chasing down what might actually be causing an issue takes some time. I'm not trying to pick it apart. I'm just trying to be specific.

 

Interesting side Note: 

Spoiler

 

Interestingly, one of the forum regulars shared some builds to test this beta (much appreciated). I got a good laugh when the very first one (very strong build) did not have Bone Smasher or Power Crash.

What?! LOL. They are one of those who really like the Beta.

I guess it makes sense. Some will see value in only TF > ET ( fET^tm) and avoid the others.

Improved Whirling Hands, Burn and an epic AoE is actually a lot. They've said they may add PC into the build. Just an interesting coincident, first build from someone else..

 

 

I do think TF potentially cancelling the next TFs EF is an issue. This may have relevance or concern on highly tuned scrappers.

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Troo

[Troo]

On 10/29/2020 at 1:52 AM, Naraka said:

I specifically built my tanker to mass stun which is why I use dark armor and why I'm rather disappointed they changed stun into something completely different from stun.

 

Personally, I think they should remove the 100% stun from BS and just make the new power always stun the primary target. That way I can actually slot for the effect as I don't need to waste slots enhancing BS's conditional stun.

I agree partly. 

Boosted BS is effectively getting an additional 40% chance for stun when using the combo mechanic. (regular BS has a mag 3 stun (60% chance for)

 

Moving less than 40% over to EP is one idea. (EP has a mag 2 stun (30% chance for) (maybe shorter duration mag 3 60%)

Moving the combo stun to Barrage is another.

Adding.. Changing.. There have been a number of ideas that key in on the BS combo causing undesirable behavior for some players/play styles. Maybe more on lower builds than higher builds.

 

I'm still thinking that keeping the TF>ET and keeping TF>PC but removing TF>BS is a compromise many could embrace. (this is not my first choice)

 

Some additional stun to EP or Barrage could compensate.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Troo

[ScarySai]

I've decided to change my opinion on brute/tank EM now that I kinda had this pointed out to me.

 

Scrappers/stalkers are balanced around crits, and for EM they only really get partial benefit from crit. Tanks have the target cap thing going for them, non-focused PC is equal to focused PC from other ATs. Brutes get the FULL benefit of fury in ET and TF, so it should be interesting to see how they scale out.

 

If the bone smasher thing gets resolved, set's perfect and we can safely close the thread and move elsewhere.

Edited October 29, 2020 by ScarySai

[Captain Powerhouse]

11 hours ago, Troo said:

Question - There is a delay between the end of the fast Energy Transfer animation and the visual hit on the target. Is the damage being applied after the animation like at 1.5 seconds?

 

I played a little without sound and the delay became much more noticeable.

 

There is currently a timing bug where the damage comes too late in the animation, a fix for that is in the queue.

[Mystic_Cross]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

I agree partly. 

BS is effectively getting an additional 40% chance for stun when using the combo mechanic. (BS has a mag 3 stun (60% chance for)

 

Moving less than 40% over to EP is one idea. (EP has a mag 2 stun (30% chance for) (maybe shorter duration mag 3 60%)

Moving the combo stun to Barrage is another.

Adding.. Changing.. There have been a number of ideas that key in on the BS combo causing undesirable behavior for some players/play styles. Maybe more on lower builds than higher builds.

 

I'm still thinking that keeping the TF>ET and keeping TF>PC but removing TF>BS is a compromise many could embrace. Adding some stun to EP or Barrage could compensate.

After several hours playing around on a tank at level 30 I’m not so sure that anything should be removed from BS, but maybe that something should be added elsewhere. 
 

Allow EF to have two stacks on tanks/Brutes. Make Build Up grant an EF stack and give TF an end discount if used while EF is active.

 

At lower levels you could burn EF with BS or TF and the end discount would go a long way here. At higher levels you could make better use of BS or PC once in a while and still benefit from fET.

[Troo]

@Mystic_Cross could you live without the Bone Smasher part of the combo? Either by simply removing it or moving that function elsewhere.

 

Tanks are getting a little bit of a raw deal since the set blossoms so late for them.

Even buildup is later in the set (level 28)

The improved Whirling Hands and any Primary set AoE (if present) does let a tank do what it is gonna do.

1.  Barrage
2.  Energy Punch
3.  Bone Smasher
4. Taunt
5.  Whirling Hands
6.  Total Focus (moved from T9)
7.  Build Up
8.  Power Crash (replaces Stun, moved from T6)
9.  Energy Transfer (moved from T8)

 

I'm not sure how interested Tankers are in stunning one target. Once Power Crash and Energy Transfer are available and the primary set is flushed out, it's likely never.

 

For squishier ATs it makes sense to be able to stun one target but they also get more stun capabilities earlier outside of the combo.

BS>TF & ET>TF will most often stun a boss, even +3 or +4 bosses.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Troo

[Saikochoro]

3 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Brutes get the FULL benefit of fury in ET and TF, so it should be interesting to see how they scale out.

I was actually thinking that brutes may turn out ahead because of fury affecting TF and ET. I made a EM/bio brute with a very similar build to my EM/bio scrapper. 
 

On even level mobs even at 80 fury, the brute still did 200-300 less damage than the scrapper with energy transfer while using build up + guassians. I will do some more testing tonight though with more scenarios. I didn’t have enough time to do much more than build the brute last night. 

[ScarySai]

Try it with a damage capped brute. That could be fun.

[Saikochoro]

14 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Try it with a damage capped brute. That could be fun.

In my next testing I will try it on both a damage capped brute and a damage capped scrapper to see how they compare. 

[Mystic_Cross]

@Troo I could live with the bonus in BS being moved to something else. What else? I don't know. I'd love to see an AoE stun in the set, so just rolling it into PC comes to mind. I'd suggest Whirling Hands first since it's also available earlier for tanks, I don't think that would happen, but who knows? 

 

As for stunning one target, for myself, I find it useful and even entertaining to use whether I'm in imminent danger or not. Completely necessary? probably not. Having it still enables options for alternate playstyles while removing it completely would serve to limit those options. Personally I'm a fan of the -special effect though, especially on control heavy or harder to deal with mobs like awakened PPD. Gravitic Radial also has a -special debuff and it synergizes well with BS right now, IMO. 

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Saikochoro said:

I was actually thinking that brutes may turn out ahead because of fury affecting TF and ET. I made a EM/bio brute with a very similar build to my EM/bio scrapper. 
 

On even level mobs even at 80 fury, the brute still did 200-300 less damage than the scrapper with energy transfer while using build up + guassians. I will do some more testing tonight though with more scenarios. I didn’t have enough time to do much more than build the brute last night. 

The underperformance of brute bio compared to scrapper bio may be a mitigating factor there.

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

I agree partly. 

BS is effectively getting an additional 40% chance for stun when using the combo mechanic. (BS has a mag 3 stun (60% chance for)

 

...

 

I'm not sure how interested Tankers are in stunning one target. Once Power Crash and Energy Transfer are available and the primary set is flushed out, it's likely never.

And what's the duration of that stun?

 

The deal is, with the power Stun (not the status), and only one additional slot, I can effectively neutralize an extra boss. It only costs a power pick and one slot and that boss can be juggled for the whole recharge of the power. BS can only have 5 additional slots and trying to fit in decent attack slotting with extra Mez slotting while requiring TF is the raw deal for just a normal build hinging on the Mez.

 

I feel a late game tank would want to have more Mez since single target is their issue, not AoE they're usually half ignoring anything that's not a boss. Basically, you're picking Stun to juggle bosses which your going to get less of if you don't have it. Replacing it with conditional BS or fast ET is spreading your DPS to multiple hard targets. 

 

Now if having a hard Mez melee in dark armor is just something not balanced for, why not just say that?

[Troo]

20 hours ago, Naraka said:

And what's the duration of that stun?

Un-enhanced I think it is just over 9.5 seconds.

 

I used the power Stun in a similar way. Your feedback is good to consider.

 

For me I never really led with TF (which has essentially the same stun as Stun did), or even used TF much beyond a finisher. But now that it is quicker and is practically required to be used, I'm thinkin that's my Stun replacement and the combo stun is not critical. ET is mag 3 at 60%, BS is mag 3 at 60%.

 

Testing last night, +4 bosses were regularly stumbling around without using the combo mechanic stun.

 

So if I can stun one boss (sometimes 2) and placate another (on a stalker) that's always been a good way to mitigate incoming damage while going to town on the other targets.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Troo

[Golden Azrael]

I like Stunning.  And the new EM has mobs tweetie birding around A-OK.

 

100 BS?  Luvly.  BOW!  Tweety bird.

 

AoE?  MoAR tweetie birds!

 

Rack and stack those stuns for mitigation.

 

EM's Stun capability is coming home!

 

Azrael.

 

What I like about 100% stun.  (Apart from finding them funny) I can put the beat down on beat down on other mobs whilst the dangerous one is taken out the fight with a twirly bird for a while.

 

By the time he wakes up from that concussion?  TF and ET are coming down the track.

 

Poetry.

 

There's a really nice play smoothness to all this.  Get the feeling this has been private beta play tested to death before being released on the public beta.

 

It plays to perfection.

 

I like the fact that TF gives you the instant Energy Focus buff that immediately gives you three combat choices.  

 

Do you want to?

 

100% stun that nasty mob that's becoming an irritant with their damage?  (Never poke the tank with a damage stick.  It will draw attention to you Mr. Mob.)

Short ET Mr. Mob with Mother Trucker Punch?

Power Crash AOE with boosted mob radiance?

 

Those are three solid choices.  Depending on what you want to do.

Historically.  EM has hit 'hard', randomly stunned and had light AoE.

 

Now?

 

You can hit harder.

Have a ded cert stun.

And boost your AoE.  And stack it.

 

It's faster.  Stunnier.  Damagier.  Single target quickier.  AoEier.  Stackier.

 

The pace of the set is quicker.  Smoothier.  Harder Edged.

 

Even the previously tepid T1-3s seem to have got a boost.  I even enjoy Energy Punch now.  Even that feels more meaty.  It sucked as a pick before.  'Mere filler' it was.

 

It feels far more bruising on the ground.  In actual missions with irritating mobs like Dev' Earth or Arties which take ages to take down with the old plodding version.  (The one that was slower, random stunnier...non aoe stackable...poor outside of the two big hitters...)

 

In fact, I think the moAR mobs you have the higher the difficulty, it sings at this 'pitched' battle scenario.

 

But not for long.  Because they're all ded.  DED!  In a heap of BOnE SmAShURed!

 

Azrael.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Mystic_Cross]

Has any consideration been given about making EF a timed buff instead of “build n burn”? 
 

Like, put it on a 10s timer and any attacks within that window would benefit from it. I think that would alleviate the feeling of a “forced” attack chain as well as any clashes of interest between BS, PC and fET.

[Bopper]

9 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

Has any consideration been given about making EF a timed buff instead of “build n burn”? 
 

Like, put it on a 10s timer and any attacks within that window would benefit from it. I think that would alleviate the feeling of a “forced” attack chain as well as any clashes of interest between BS, PC and fET.

It won't fix what folks are clammoring for. There is no way you'd get a 10s timer, that's just asking to make it perma. Total Focus is only a 20s recharge, so you'd hit perma with just slotting.

 

You're more likely to get something like Eagle's Claw where the buff would only last 2-3 seconds. You're not gonna get two Fast Energy Transfers with that, but you could get two EF spenders. However that forces everyone's hand into a rotation of TF > ET > BS/PC then filler until TF comes back.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Bopper

[Mystic_Cross]

9 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It won't fix what folks are clammoring for. There is no way you'd get a 10s timer, that's just asking to make it perma. Total Focus is only a 20s recharge, so you'd hit perma with just slotting.

 

You're more likely to get something like Eagle's Claw where the buff would only last 2-3 seconds. You're not gonna get two Fast Energy Transfers with that, but you could get to EF spenders. However that forces everyone's hand into a rotation of TF > ET > BS/PC then filler until TF comes back.

 

I wasn't really suggesting a 10s timer, just throwing a number out there that sounded reasonable. You make it sound not so reasonable 😄

 

Using a short EC buff window would probably be just as bad then. Eh, it was worth a shot.

[Sovera]

I have not tested the changes myself, but reading what others have said I don't see what the point is for a ST stun. Controllers are already sad that their CC is not needed and adding a flavor that is CC leaves me cold. I don't see the benefit, that is all. We kill things that need killing, the fact that they were previously stunned makes no impact.

 

Maybe for a squishier AT. Doms might not mind their arsenal accrued by an extra ST stun. But for Tankers the addition is flavor at best, useless at worst. A Tanker does not mind having a boss hitting them on the face, they are a Tanker.

 

Give that chance to WH instead.

 

 

I have leveled a ton of tanks these past months, a ton, and my summary of the AT while leveling is:

 

- Build-up early is very important for survival. Sets that have it as low as 20 instead of 28 do a lot better since they can initiate combat and kill most minions. A tanker rarely fears one single strong enemy but tends to go down under a flurry of papercuts when surrounded by a swarm.

- Early AoE is important for the same reason. All sets with late AoEs (Radiation Melee, Super Strength, etc) suffer like pigs to the slaughter when it comes to surviving death-by-a-thousand-papercuts. As much as so many people are poo pooing on homogenization as a bad thing allow me to be the devil's advocate for the reverse: all sets should have a real AoE early on. Fighting three or more enemies one at a time is bad, real bad, terrible when it comes to things like kill alls and damn Clockwork bosses spawning little gears that have to be chased. And yes, I don't count crap cones as AoEs.

 

Having ST CC (such as War Hammer has) does not make a huge impact in this survival list. Using the new mechanic to substantially Increase stun chance in Whirling Hands (maybe not 100%, sure) would help with survival.

 

 

P.S. For an attack whose text is 'By focusing your energy into the muscles in your arms, you can launch a dizzying flurry of attacks against every foe in melee range' the animation is completely dummy. Consider swapping it for the Whirlwind animation of the Speed pool and instead of a single hit make it a quick flurry of DoTs over the animation period. That would fit a lot better.

[Naraka]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I have not tested the changes myself, but reading what others have said I don't see what the point is for a ST stun. Controllers are already sad that their CC is not needed and adding a flavor that is CC leaves me cold. I don't see the benefit, that is all. We kill things that need killing, the fact that they were previously stunned makes no impact.

 

Maybe for a squishier AT. Doms might not mind their arsenal accrued by an extra ST stun. But for Tankers the addition is flavor at best, useless at worst. A Tanker does not mind having a boss hitting them on the face, they are a Tanker.

But that was the main goal of my dark/em tanker, to keep aggro and stun on a lot of meaty targets (and even the little ones but they are mostly ignored). It also conserves my END since I have to use dark Regen less (actually used it more for an END replenishment with IOs). Having the guaranteed ST stun meant I could focus my hard hitters on the tough targets or spread them around to neutralize more foes. I could reliably contain 3 bosses/lts if need be with only my primary and secondary and possibly more if I get lucky with WH.

 

If that is something not desirable for a tanker to have outside of a moderately IO'ed with good rech bonuses just say that then. Don't beat around the bush trying to justify some denial of Dom role or some such superfluous reason.

 

Like I said before, the same functionality could be retained by just moving the EF disorient boost on BS over to PC primary target and not needing EF for it just like current Stun. Then you can keep the power as a stun tool and you don't have to slot it for damage unless you wanted to.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

But that was the main goal of my dark/em tanker, to keep aggro and stun on a lot of meaty targets (and even the little ones but they are mostly ignored). It also conserves my END since I have to use dark Regen less (actually used it more for an END replenishment with IOs). Having the guaranteed ST stun meant I could focus my hard hitters on the tough targets or spread them around to neutralize more foes. I could reliably contain 3 bosses/lts if need be with only my primary and secondary and possibly more if I get lucky with WH.

 

If that is something not desirable for a tanker to have outside of a moderately IO'ed with good rech bonuses just say that then. Don't beat around the bush trying to justify some denial of Dom role or some such superfluous reason.

 

Like I said before, the same functionality could be retained by just moving the EF disorient boost on BS over to PC primary target and not needing EF for it just like current Stun. Then you can keep the power as a stun tool and you don't have to slot it for damage unless you wanted to.

Having a 'goal' or being 'unique' is fine and dandy, but that does not mean it is useful. Some people feel 'useful' by having the -regen Interface and are ready to swear that they/it makes a difference, except the math does not back it up. There is always someone who took Stun or Touch of fear even if the crushing majority did not.

 

Try not to twist my words just because you like throwing stuns and being a melee Controller. It's fine that you do, hey I'm happy for you to have found your niche, but to do it or not to do it makes little difference in actual game-play. It's flavor, it's theme, it's fine. It is fine. But lots of enemies are where the danger lies even in high level content. Lots of enemies = AoE time = the time for the stuns to shine and gain a few seconds.

 

Even with the improvements the set still doesn't have great AoE so gaining those seconds in an AoE situation would help.

[Naraka]

20 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Having a 'goal' or being 'unique' is fine and dandy, but that does not mean it is useful. Some people feel 'useful' by having the -regen Interface and are ready to swear that they/it makes a difference, except the math does not back it up. There is always someone who took Stun or Touch of fear even if the crushing majority did not.

 

Try not to twist my words just because you like throwing stuns and being a melee Controller. It's fine that you do, hey I'm happy for you to have found your niche, but to do it or not to do it makes little difference in actual game-play. It's flavor, it's theme, it's fine. It is fine. But lots of enemies are where the danger lies even in high level content. Lots of enemies = AoE time = the time for the stuns to shine and gain a few seconds.

 

Even with the improvements the set still doesn't have great AoE so gaining those seconds in an AoE situation would help.

Not sure what this quoted reply even is for.

 

Didn't say anything about unique or useful. My main point and criticism is keeping functionality. If the functionality isn't useful to you, is that why we aren't keeping it? Or maybe the functionality is still there (no one has directly replied to me saying the set is better at stunning than before and maybe it is) but at what cost/hoops needed to jump through?

 

Overall, some are a bit annoyed they have to work around mechanics at all but I just don't see a reason the particular functionality I'm talking about was altered or removed since it wasn't overpowered (thus not useful, as you say) and is so simple to keep in place.

[AerialAssault]

I want to be honest, I never felt like I had issues stunning enemies on any AT. Yeah, sure, maybe I couldn't keep 1 Boss consistently CC'd, but you know what I could do? Completely discombobulate them with very high burst damage. Which I think is a fair trade-off.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

Didn't say anything about unique or useful. My main point and criticism is keeping functionality. If the functionality isn't useful to you, is that why we aren't keeping it? Or maybe the functionality is still there (no one has directly replied to me saying the set is better at stunning than before and maybe it is) but at what cost/hoops needed to jump through?

While the set isn't specifically better at stunning than before (pre- or post-nerf), it's really not any worse at it, either.

 

You might get more stuns from having two AoEs with a low percentage chance in each, but for me those aren't reliable enough to consider "better." Combine with Oppressive Gloom and the mobs in melee range attack you because a) you missed; b) you let them; or c) you're herding stun-resistant mobs (EB+ included). Locking down a typical 2-3 boss spawn should not be a problem.

Edited October 30, 2020 by siolfir