Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[macskull]

7 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

And have to make a macro to target the fucking thing.

How is that any different than if you were able to use any attack to light it?

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

How is that any different than if you were able to use any attack to light it?

Putting 1 point of energy damage in Disruption Arrow. Now you dont need to make a macro, because its AE, or have a trash power on your bar. 

 

Why are you so opposed to lighting it, if its so easy to do?

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, summers said:

Something is a little off with this power, since the in game display says it's -9.38% / -9.38% unresistable for Defenders! Corruptors are getting -7.5% / -7.5% unresistable

 

Corruptors use a lower debuff scale than defenders.  So do controllers and masterminds.

[KaizenSoze]

13 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

The most interesting change to me is the -Resist Special in Acid Arrow. There's nothing else like that in the game. In a recent conversation I learned that debuff strength is recalculated every tick, so an enemy hit with Acid Arrow will see its -ToHit debuff etc multiplied even if the arrow hits after the debuff lands. There's a lot of potentially weird combos for the new Acid Arrow:

• Paired with Electric sets, endurance drains are more effective
• Paired with Dark sets, -ToHit is more effective
• Paired with Ice or Psionic sets, -Recharge is more effective. This is the first and only power in the game that can make -Recharge more effective.

I have a lot to explore. I've got a TA character I can pull over to the test server to see how things go.

I have been thinking about what a electric or Ice controller could do with acid arrow.

 

Ice's Arctic Air might benefit quite a bit. Electric could become an even monstrous end drainer.

[Replacement]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

EMP Arrow still possesses a strong Regen debuff: it appears to be -1000% for the first 15 seconds, followed by 30 more seconds of -500%.

 

The only thing I'm not sure about, so I'll @Bopper, is that both Regeneration entries are flagged to IgnoreStrength -- would this result in them ignoring the +debuff effect of Acid Arrow?

FYI: I worked this out while trying to explain my problem to Bopper:  Acid Arrow debuffs enemy resistance, which is entirely different from buffing your own debuffs.  So "IgnoresStrength" tag is fine and WAI.

 

tl;dr: EMP Arrow should give a whopping -1400% Regeneration (assuming target has 0 starting regeneration resistance) for the first 15 seconds, followed by -700% for 30 seconds afterwards.

 

Strong AV Combo, with a bit of recharge.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Replacement

[Replacement]

13 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I love these changes. Thanks so much for pouring your heart into the revisions. Some of these powers work in very interesting ways.

 

The most interesting change to me is the -Resist Special in Acid Arrow. There's nothing else like that in the game. In a recent conversation I learned that debuff strength is recalculated every tick, so an enemy hit with Acid Arrow will see its -ToHit debuff etc multiplied even if the arrow hits after the debuff lands. There's a lot of potentially weird combos for the new Acid Arrow:

• Paired with Electric sets, endurance drains are more effective
• Paired with Dark sets, -ToHit is more effective
• Paired with Ice or Psionic sets, -Recharge is more effective. This is the first and only power in the game that can make -Recharge more effective.

I have a lot to explore. I've got a TA character I can pull over to the test server to see how things go.

While there may be something similar with Ice Arrow's -Special, Acid Arrow specifically doesn't affect -ToHit debuffs.  The Ice/Psi/Electric examples are correct, though.

[Luminara]

22 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I've yet to hear an argument about WHY you guys are so against this QOL change.

 

The set isn't balanced around having OSA specifically as a damage power.  It's balanced around having OSA specifically as a debuff and soft control, and also having the option to deal damage.  Reworking the set to include an in-set ignition method for OSA would require rebalancing the set as a whole, because the set would no longer be balanced internally.

 

And you're right, it would be a quality of life change, but it would reduce the quality of life for every player who uses OSA as it was designed and intended to be used.  Every player who drops OSA and uses OSTarget as a focal point for further debuffs, or for cone/AoE attacks.  Every player who uses OSA in unexpected ways, such as a Dark Miasma character using OSTarget to rez teammates.  Every player who lays down OSA at a chokepoint, uses OSTarget to set up further debuffs and tops it off with Disruption before pulling a spawn into it.  Everyone who isn't struggling under the misperception that OSA is just a damage power would have to give up whatever debuff ended up with Energy or Fire damage because it would make using OSA with that debuff impossible.  Everyone who doesn't start shouting because one mild inconvenience is the price they have to pay to get a bonus from a power.

 

It's not a nuke.  It's a Defense debuff, movement speed debuff and knock-down patch which also happens to be capable of dealing damage under the correct circumstances.  That is how it was designed and balanced, and the set balanced in conjunction with the expectation that it works and is used in that manner.  It's extra damage on top of everything else TA does, but that extra damage comes with the requirement that we, the players, actively pursue it.  That's the balance cost of that damage.  If you want it, you have to do something to get it, and that something has to be more than "shoot another debuff".  

 

That's why we're against it.

[Luminara]

10 minutes ago, Replacement said:

tl;dr: EMP Arrow should give a whopping -1400% Regeneration (assuming target has 0 starting regeneration resistance) for the first 15 seconds, followed by -700% for 45 seconds afterwards.

 

43 seconds.  EMP Arrow has a 1.98s animation time.

 

Still a lot.

[Replacement]

7 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

43 seconds.  EMP Arrow has a 1.98s animation time.

 

Still a lot.

30 seconds, actually ( just corrected my earlier post).  It's 45 seconds of 500 + 15 seconds of 500, which works out to 1000 for the first 15, then 500 for the last 30.  I don't see anything that indicates the effect is suppressed for the duration of the animation, indeed that would be completely new to me anywhere in the game.

 

1.6 seconds into the animation, the hit occurs.  This is when the 15/45 second clocks should start.  To my eyes, the final .23s of the 1.83s (I'm guessing your 1.98 figure is Arcanatime?) is just padding to add to the Recharge until it can be used again.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Replacement

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I'm guessing your 1.98 figure is Arcanatime?

 

Always.  Since most animations lock the character into that time, rather than the activation time, I just use animation time + Arcanatime as my default.

 

I'm tired.  I've been gardening all morning.  I saw the 45 and my brain said 43.

 

I need to make coffee.

[roleki]

So far, so good.  I don't hate the changes, but, could REALLY have used Acid Arrow or PGA or darn near any power in the set combining to ignite OSA.  Don't give me that "it was never intended to be a damage set!" bs.  We're playing a game that was intended to be shut down almost a decade ago, I don't see you people clutching pearls on THAT one.

[InfamousBrad]

I love most of these changes but really feel like the new ally buff component of EMP Arrow should be moved to Disruption Arrow instead, since it has the advantage of being ground targeted. Not to mention that I can't think of any even comic-book-ish explanation for why firing off an electromagnetic pulse should buff your teammates.

[WindDemon21]

31 minutes ago, InfamousBrad said:

I love most of these changes but really feel like the new ally buff component of EMP Arrow should be moved to Disruption Arrow instead, since it has the advantage of being ground targeted. Not to mention that I can't think of any even comic-book-ish explanation for why firing off an electromagnetic pulse should buff your teammates.

Yes, and let us slot it for resistance so we can io it finally per my previous post.

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

And have to make a macro to target the fucking thing.

How's that different from using any other targeted power to light it?

 

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Can we just do away with the middleman? I've yet to hear an argument about WHY you guys are so against this QOL change.

It's actually been posted several times, you can't just dismiss it because you don't like the answer. It's because lighting the slick to do damage is a bonus, not meant as a core feature of the power.

[zenijos10]

36 minutes ago, Vanden said:

How's that different from using any other targeted power to light it?

 

It's actually been posted several times, you can't just dismiss it because you don't like the answer. It's because lighting the slick to do damage is a bonus, not meant as a core feature of the power.

"Ranged (Location Area of Effect) Knockdown, -Speed, -Defense, +Special(Moderate Damage over Time(Fire) while burning)" (from wiki)

Calling the DOT "Bonus" damage seems arbitrary to me.

 

"EMP Arrow: Ranged (Targeted Area of Effect) Foe: Hold, -Regen, -Endurance, Special Damage vs Robots; Self -Recovery" (from wiki)

Curiously, would you call the damage vs robots 'Bonus' Damage?  To me, no.  Just like the DOT in OSA, it is a function, and an important one of the power.  It only works against robots, but it is self contained within the powerset.  It is a feature, not an unintended side effect.

 

For Oil Slick, the power is directly dependent on the primary powerset. 

If you have a primary power set that does fire or energy damage then oil slick is more powerful -  I think everyone agrees here.

If you do not have a primary powerset with fire or energy damage then you have to use an additional, otherwise terrible power (origin power) to activate the damage portion of Oil Slick - I think is also not controversial.   

 

I agree that igniting the oil slick makes logical and thematic sense.   I agree that trick arrow is a debuff/buff set.  On a larger note,  I also think that the function of a given power in any powerset across any AT requiring a specific second powerset pairing is arbitrary.    A large function of oil slick is the DOT, even if you want to call it "bonus". Does the primary sets balance equation include the "bonus" damage potential of OSA?   I would wager no, and also argue that's an inside out way to balance a secondary powerset. If you really wanted to achieve balance this way, shouldn't every powerset have some inherent way of igniting OSA without resorting to a origin power?  

 

Honest Question:  Is there any other power in the game the works the same way as OSA to get reach it's full potential?  Is there any other power balanced combo use with temp or origin powers?

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by zenijos10

[Vanden]

Just now, zenijos10 said:

"Ranged (Location Area of Effect) Knockdown, -Speed, -Defense, +Special(Moderate Damage over Time(Fire) while burning)" (from wiki)

Calling the DOT "Bonus" damage seems arbitrary to me.

 

"EMP Arrow: Ranged (Targeted Area of Effect) Foe: Hold, -Regen, -Endurance, Special Damage vs Robots; Self -Recovery" (from wiki)

Curiously, would you call the damage vs robots 'Bonus' Damage?  To me, no.  It is a function, and an important one of the power.  It only works against robots, but it is self contained within the powerset.  It is a feature, not an unintended side effect.

Both effects are literally labeled "Special" in the tooltips.

[zenijos10]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Both effects are literally labeled "Special" in the tooltips.

Are you saying Special = Bonus.

Power Boost on a blaster does "Self +Special" and nothing else (According to wiki(.  Does that mean its entire function is just a "bonus"?

 

I would say from context across powersets, special is in fact a "special" and defining function of the power, not a dismissable "bonus".

Edited October 26, 2020 by zenijos10

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

you have to use an additional, otherwise terrible power (origin power)

 

As I've posted several times, you do not have to use an origin power.  Every player has access to numerous temporary powers which deal Energy or Fire damage.  Every player has access to procs which deal Energy or Fire damage.  Every player has access to pets in PPPs which deal Energy or Fire damage.  Every player has access to teammates which deal Energy or Fire damage.

 

Any player may choose not to use a primary or secondary with Energy or Fire damage and still have access to numerous options for igniting OSA.  No-one "has" to use Apprentice Charm or Taser Dart.

[zenijos10]

7 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

As I've posted several times, you do not have to use an origin power.  Every player has access to numerous temporary powers which deal Energy or Fire damage.  Every player has access to procs which deal Energy or Fire damage.  Every player has access to pets in PPPs which deal Energy or Fire damage.  Every player has access to teammates which deal Energy or Fire damage.

 

Any player may choose not to use a primary or secondary with Energy or Fire damage and still have access to numerous options for igniting OSA.  No-one "has" to use Apprentice Charm or Taser Dart.

Yes you have indeed.  And I agree, I was not correct in saying you "Have" to get the origin power.  However, that doesn't answer the spirit or reason of my concern.  Does this power make sense in the context of all the other powerset powers in the game? I still ask the same question, does any other power function this way and require another power outside of its powerset to reach its full stated function?  I'm actually trying to get an answer, not just make argument. 

 

So far it seems no.  The only other one I can think of is the pet exploding power from Traps, but even then all Mastermind primary powersets have multiple powers that summon pets.  Is OSA on an island when it comes to the ability using its full scope of power (as opposed to scale of power)?  If it is on an island, does it really make sense to put it there?  If so, please explain to me.  I am reasonable and trying to understand.

Edited October 26, 2020 by zenijos10

[arkieboy72472]

All this debate about who or what should light an oil slick is derailing actual conversation about everything else. There are ways around it. It will be fine. There are other powers to test. We have went without it this long. Pick a secondary that can do it. Use some procs. This set is proc city. Those of you not using them are missing out on the extra damage. Or team up. Be creative.

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

I still ask the same question, does any other power function this way and require another power outside of its powerset to reach its full stated function?

You can keep asking that question, but it's not going to change the fact that lighting the slick isn't part of OSA "full stated function."

[zenijos10]

Just now, Vanden said:

You can keep asking that question, but it's not going to change the fact that lighting the slick isn't part of OSA "full stated function."

The DOT damage is literally stated.

 

[kenlon]

So, just remove the ability to light the slick - problem solved!

[Wavicle]

I'm liking these changes.

I have no problem with the way Oil Slick functions, but it would be nice if the Oil Slick was tagged Electronic so that the EMP could set it off.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Wavicle

[Luminara]

19 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

I still ask the same question, does any other power function this way and require another power outside of its powerset to reach its full stated function?

 

Rage, Unleash Potential.

 

Technically, every Resistance debuff which deals 0 damage, and is within a set with no other powers which deal damage, and has a duration of less than infinite, requires the use of one or more powers which deal damage in order for the debuff to reach it's full stated function.  Those powers can come from the user's other set, from pools, from *PPs, from pets, from teammates, or even from other enemies (Confuse), but until and unless damage is dealt, the debuff is, quite literally, nothing more than an emote.  Yes, it might functionally do what it was designed to do, but functionally, it's useless in a vacuum.  It absolutely requires the use of another power to functionally be of any value, and for most Resistance debuffs, that means using a power outside of the set which contains the debuff.

 

That's the problem with your question.  You're placing OSA in a vacuum and suggesting that it may not be working properly because it's different.  No-one plays in a vacuum.  No-one is restricted to one set (even Kheldians have two sets, a primary and a secondary), or denied access to temp powers, or locked out of pools, or barred from the market.  No-one is forced to play without access to a means of igniting OSA, nor is anyone forced to make a macro or bind, or take a specific set.  Outside of the artificial limitation introduced by putting OSA in a vacuum, this problem, OSA having zero potential means of ignition, doesn't exist.

 

I played TA/Dark as my main for years.  I know, conclusively, that this vacuum doesn't exist.