Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

As does being trapped in a Trick Archer's Entangling net.

Being trapped in a net prevents your synapses from firing and your interior muscles from flexing?

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Being trapped in a net prevents your synapses from firing and your interior muscles from flexing?

I mean it will prevent you from positioning to reduce the impact.

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, WindDemon21 said:

I mean it will prevent you from positioning to reduce the impact.

That sounds like -recharge or -def. We have a precedent for what kind of effects do -res, it's nearly always internal damage, and honestly there do exists descriptions that can justify entangling doing -res. It hardly matters now though since it'll stay, just pointing it out. 

 

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, Monos King said:

That sounds like -recharge or -def. We have a precedent for what kind of effects do -res, it's nearly always internal damage, and honestly there do exists descriptions that can justify entangling doing -res. It hardly matters now though since it'll stay, just pointing it out. 

 

I mean, it makes ENOUGH sense, it's how it is now and it's good, stop trying to ruin it.

[Luminara]

11 minutes ago, Monos King said:

We have a precedent for what kind of effects do -res, it's nearly always internal damage

 

All three whip attacks in the Demons mastermind primary, Sleet, Freezing Rain, Tar Patch, Melt Armor, Slowed Response, Acid Mortar... these are all external, so I'm not seeing that precedent.

 

Some powers, like Enervating Field, Sonic primaries and secondaries, other powers with sonic effects, would cause internal damage, but it would be very slow, taking hours, days, typically months or years.  Even the most acute doses of radiation poisoning ever experienced by human beings, weakness and frailty didn't set in instantaneously.  A massive microwave transmitter, a sonic cannon, nothing actually causes this kind of debilitation right away, or within seconds.  By the very nature of the game, we're stepping outside of the boundaries of real world effects and pretending that they can be devastating in an instant, so Entangling's -Res doesn't need a special explanation or bending of logic, nor does it need to comply to anyone's imagined rules for what can or can't cause an effect.  That's what our character bios and individual imaginations are for.  I covered this exhaustively several pages back.  The horse is dead, let's move on.

[Monos King]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I covered this exhaustively several pages back.  The horse is dead, let's move on.

As did I. Like I said, anyone is open to DM me if they want to discuss the attributes of -res and interactions with powers in the game. Truthfully, not much to move on to.

 

Fact is Entangling is keeping the -res, which is fine for Trick Arrow. The fact the thread has devolved into discussion of something so minor guarantees the set is in a good place. I think we all agree there.

[Jacke]

13 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Using Smoke Grenade is a very, very bad example because as you pointed out Smoke Grenade is terrible.

Also, looking at One power is a mistake.

I'm saying if my Trick Arrow is on a team, let's say there's also a Dark, a Storm, and a Poison on the team, my Acid Arrow will improve many of THEIR debuffs, which have much larger values to work with than Smoke Grenade.

Once more, with feeling!  (This is rather complex which is why we're still talking about it.)

 

Acid Arrow has:

• tiny DoT,
• good -Def,
• and the -Special which increases the magnitude of some debuffs (in short, a lot besides -Res)
  (can't increase -Res because Res is its own debuff resistance and allowing a -Special to apply would lead to madness).

Problem is:

• tiny DoT rarely helps and can makes things worse, like PGA and other powers' Sleep when they are wanted, so be aware;
• such -Def is rarely needed;
• often debuffs are small so it really doesn't help that much to increase them (e.g. Smoke Grenade);
• in large number of cases both the -Special and the debuffs are highly resisted (EBs, AVs, GMs), so need to be increasing very good debuffs;
• some mobs have a high floor for their debuff resistances (Lt, Bosses, EBs, AVs) which is how the -Special works, by reducing them;
• for the -Special to actually work, either needs a lower debuff floor with a lot of room above it (Underlings, Minions);
• or a high debuff resistance floor with even more room about it (some EBs, most AVs, GMs)
• Underlings and Minions have such low health and aren't very hard targets, so there's rarely a lot of difference in the time to defeat them.

So where Acid Arrow does do effective work is:

• where -Def is needed, like running 1st and 2nd Tier MM Pets, who depending on the level, can be down another 2 and 1 levels from that of the MM;
• boosting strong debuffs against targets who have room to take the -Special, EBs, AVs, and GMs (but be sure your tactics are effectively delivering those strong debuffs);
• where the DoT doesn't hurt (breaking desired Sleep) or even helps (interrupts irritant mobs).

Acid Arrow can improve things, but only some things significantly at some times.

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Jacke

[Marbing]

I can't wait for my Elec/TA to get these buffs. I already do -end like a boss, and on top of that Acid Arrow and Disruption arrow are now going to destroy mobs end too. Plus, EMP arrow... Yeesh.

 

I already have tons of fun on the toon (and haven't run into another Elec/TA... dare I say ever? Which will probably change after this update) but now it's going to be insane! 

Edited November 14, 2020 by th0ughtGun

[KaizenSoze]

18 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

I can't wait for my Elec/TA to get these buffs. I already do -end like a boss, and on top of that Acid Arrow and Disruption arrow are now going to destroy mobs end too. Plus, EMP arrow... Yeesh.

 

I already have tons of fun on the toon (and haven't run into another Elec/TA... dare I say ever? Which will probably change after this update) but now it's going to be insane! 

I would temper my expectation about AA and end drain. Search the thread for "sapper".

 

Short version, is that is does not seem to make that much of a difference on normal mobs and have no effect on end drain resistant mobs.

 

That is for one AA at a time, stacking AAs from multiple players should have an effect. I have not been able to test it, but I trust Boppers math.

[Marbing]

6 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I would temper my expectation about AA and end drain. Search the thread for "sapper".

 

Short version, is that is does not seem to make that much of a difference on normal mobs and have no effect on end drain resistant mobs.

 

That is for one AA at a time, stacking AAs from multiple players should have an effect. I have not been able to test it, but I trust Boppers math.

I understand. But still, ANY extra end drain on a toon that already does a lot of end drain is overkill. But it isn't just that, all the other changes are going to make TA much more potent. So, still, very excited. 🙂

[Bopper]

6 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I understand. But still, ANY extra end drain on a toon that already does a lot of end drain is overkill. But it isn't just that, all the other changes are going to make TA much more potent. So, still, very excited. 🙂

It certainly is good synergy. AA acts almost like a free lvl 50 IO enhancement to your Endurance Drain/Recovery debuff effects (it's actually stronger as it improves your enhanced debuffs by 40%, not the base debuff amounts). Certain pairings will play nice with AA, Dark Blast's toHit debuffs (on minions and AVs), Beam Rifle's regeneration debuffs, electric blast's drain effects, etc. Some folks won't take AA and thats fine, but plenty of folks will see such synergy and would enjoy the power for all it offers.

[Ankhammon]

10 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I can't wait for my Elec/TA to get these buffs. I already do -end like a boss, and on top of that Acid Arrow and Disruption arrow are now going to destroy mobs end too. Plus, EMP arrow... Yeesh.

 

I already have tons of fun on the toon (and haven't run into another Elec/TA... dare I say ever? Which will probably change after this update) but now it's going to be insane! 

I was just thinking about making one of those. Sounds like a h00t both solo or in teams.

 

I'll prolly save it for TA changes going live.

[Marbing]

13 hours ago, Ankhammon said:

I was just thinking about making one of those. Sounds like a h00t both solo or in teams.

 

I'll prolly save it for TA changes going live.

Yeah my Elec/TA controller is lots of fun, I definitely recommend it. Even before these buffs! Jolting Chain + OSA is an awesome combo!

[Marbing]

17 hours ago, Bopper said:

It certainly is good synergy. AA acts almost like a free lvl 50 IO enhancement to your Endurance Drain/Recovery debuff effects (it's actually stronger as it improves your enhanced debuffs by 40%, not the base debuff amounts). Certain pairings will play nice with AA, Dark Blast's toHit debuffs (on minions and AVs), Beam Rifle's regeneration debuffs, electric blast's drain effects, etc. Some folks won't take AA and thats fine, but plenty of folks will see such synergy and would enjoy the power for all it offers.

I agree there are some power sets where AA is going to take you over the top and others where it may be less useful. Elec control will have awesome synergy with TA (it already has good synergy as is) going forward. You can light your own OSA and AA is taking your end drain to the next level allowing you to floor the enemy end faster! Can you tell I am excited?

[oedipus_tex]

I didn't test the endurance draining capacity of the new EMP Arrow, but on live you can Power Boost it, which with 2 level 50 end mod IOs will crash the endurance of all enemies within 35ft. Keeping it crashed is the hard part, of course, but Electric Controllers shouldn't have too many issues with that (Chain Fences is a 30ft radius AoE). 

[laudwic]

With the EMP Arrow revisions, will the hold effect only occur on enemies that are in the radius when it is first case or will it also effect targets that enter the cage while the cage is still up?

[Golden Azrael]

Any chance of an alt power effect graphic for the Disruption Arrow..?

 

I find it nauseating to look at.  Perhaps an alternative effect?

 

Something like the Orange disruption style from Sonic set for Defenders?  It might contrast nicely with the new EMP graphic effect too.  The pulsing grey is...'urhhh...'

 

I note the EMP has it's own graphical flurry now with teh blue dome field.

 

Anything different in the pipeline for Disruption Arrow?  I didn't take the power for my TA alt.  And I'm avoiding Long Bow missions for now.

 

Azrael.

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, laudwic said:

With the EMP Arrow revisions, will the hold effect only occur on enemies that are in the radius when it is first case or will it also effect targets that enter the cage while the cage is still up?

 

The Hold is a one-shot application.  The cage is a separate, player/pet-only effect that doesn't affect critters.

[laudwic]

18 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

The Hold is a one-shot application.  The cage is a separate, player/pet-only effect that doesn't affect critters.

I wish it was similar to the other area hold powers that can be placed.  The way your describing requires you to place it over the enemies to get value for the hold (which is probably not a very high magnitude) then you have to get inside of that area to take advantage of the defense.  That is fine for masterminds, but playing the set with a ranged controller, it would have a lot more utility if I could set the arrow near where I want a defensive perimeter, and then have the hold go off as things enter that perimeter like other similar holds. 

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, laudwic said:

I wish it was similar to the other area hold powers that can be placed.  The way your describing requires you to place it over the enemies to get value for the hold (which is probably not a very high magnitude) then you have to get inside of that area to take advantage of the defense.  That is fine for masterminds, but playing the set with a ranged controller, it would have a lot more utility if I could set the arrow near where I want a defensive perimeter, and then have the hold go off as things enter that perimeter like other similar holds. 

That would be way too powerful. It’s a normal AoE targeted hold. The buff is a bonus effect.

[Jimmy]

3 hours ago, laudwic said:

The way your describing requires you to place it over the enemies to get value for the hold (which is probably not a very high magnitude) then you have to get inside of that area to take advantage of the defense.

That's the precise intention here - you need to make a tactical choice how to use the power.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

I wish it was similar to the other area hold powers that can be placed.

 

Part of the goal of the changes to TA is to move it away from being reliant on controls.  In the last attempt to address TA's problems before the original servers were shut down, the one notable change made was to turn PGA's Sleep into a rapidly pulsing control, which pushed the set into being completely dependent on controls to compensate for the weakness of the debuffs.  This development team is taking the other direction, making the debuffs stronger, weakening the controls and firmly focusing the set as a defender primary.  You're always free to PM @Captain Powerhouse and ask him to consider your proposal, but I can save you the time by telling you now that he's not going to make EMP Arrow work like Volcanic Gases or Distortion Field, because it would be a step backward, and because it would require further balance adjustments across the set.

 

Defenders buff and debuff, first and foremost.  They can control, but that's not their primary function.  The HC team is realigning TA to more accurately and fully exist as a defender primary, partly by removing some of the overabundance of control in the set.

 

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

The way your describing requires you to place it over the enemies to get value for the hold

 

Yes, that's actually how almost all ranged AoE Holds work.  Whether they're location-targeted or critter-targeted, they affect whatever is in their radius when the activation time ends, they have a base duration (which can be enhanced of Power Boosted), then they end.  Ranged AoE Holds which reapply their effect aren't the norm.

 

3 hours ago, laudwic said:

which is probably not a very high magnitude

 

It's the same mag 3 as everything else like it.  And unless something else was changed, it should also still have a 50% chance for +1 mag, allowing the potential to Hold bosses.

 

You really should test it to see what it does.  If you're guessing at the mag, it means you haven't tried using the power.  Please, do.  If you don't know what's actually going on, your feedback risks being interpreted as noise.

 

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

then you have to get inside of that area to take advantage of the defense.

 

If you choose to, you can enter the field to gain the buff, but you don't have to.  It's not mandatory, nor even necessary for every play style.

 

3 hours ago, laudwic said:

That is fine for masterminds, but playing the set with a ranged controller

 

TA having Holds which controllers can stack with their primary powers is a bonus, not a requirement, nor do those Holds need to conform to any specific play style preferences simply because they're available to controllers.  That is the whole point of archetypes having access to more than one primary or secondary, so players can choose different sets to fit their needs for different characters.  If you want Distortion Field, play */Time Manipulation.  If you want EMP Arrow, play TA.  Differences like this allow us far more opportunities to explore the potential of different set combinations.  That's what made this game memorable for many of us.

 

There are two controller primaries and three defender secondaries which support the play style you're asking for.  That's 59 possible combinations without repeating any specific set/set combos.  If I were looking for another way to meet that goal, lobbying for a new controller primary might be a better path, considering how comparatively few of those there are.

[laudwic]

13 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

That's the precise intention here - you need to make a tactical choice how to use the power.

I can say that about every single power in existence. 

 

The potential redesign of this power is very different though.  In essence your taking a primarily ranged effect, an AoE Hold, while coupling it with a Team AoE Resistance Buff.  By having them in the same location, your encouraging a melee/close quarters play style.  This is set to be a primary for one set and a secondary for three others.  For Defenders, Controllers and Corrupotors, those ATs are primarily ranged.  If the two parts of this power were separated into two separate powers, they would rarely applied in a situation where they would overlap (more if teaming with melee types admittedly.)  I see this as a very good addition for melee oriented masterminds as it is a poor man's Faraday Cage with an AoE hold.  For Defenders, Controllers and Corrupotors it does not have the same value as each of them are primarily ranged ATs that lack many defensive powers.  Considering the difference between Melee damage and ranged damage, as well as limiting number of available attacks, range may be a better defense than fighting in this new cage.

 

Also, every single power for Trick Arrow is a ranged power.  The vast majority of Defender, Controller, and Corrupter powers are ranged.

 

My suggestion would allow the power to have the same utility offensively by placing it on a group of mobs or defensively by having it effect those initially in (once) and effect any that enter during the duration as is done with certain lower level targetable AoE holds.  

 

I do not see my change as overpowered in a final set power. 

 

Admittedly, I am a primarily a solo player.  For a solo, assuming offensive use only, the current beta version, loses a lot of allure as getting swarmed in melee generally equals a trip to the hospital. 

 

For groups, having brutes, tankers and scrappers as meat shields certainly makes a big difference to the utility of this power as you now care more about their defense as, hopefully, they are keeping everything away from you. 

 

The current version is far better for Melee masterminds and those that group, and less for those of us that solo.  

 

 

 

 

[laudwic]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

That would be way too powerful. It’s a normal AoE targeted hold. The buff is a bonus effect.

This is a final level 32 or level 38 power, it should be better than holds that are available on other sets at lower levels.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, laudwic said:

This is a final level 32 or level 38 power, it should be better than holds that are available on other sets at lower levels.

Which Hold in other sets gets a giant AoE buff field attached? THAT makes it WAY way better than other AoE holds.