Focused Feedback: Teleportation Pool Revamp

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

The core issue is that, even if we disregard combat entirely, teleport feels awful to use indoors.

 

CT is nice but it really isn't that helpful for that particular usage. 

All the travel powers feel bad indoors. Super Speed gets hung up on every little obstacle, Super Jump is always getting caught on ceilings and rafters, even Fly's lack of friction and nearly-immobilize suppressed speed gets on my nerves. It's just not the environment the powers are designed for.

[ScarySai]

I want to see how you're using SS or Super jump and fly, because I could not disagree more.

[seebs]

Okay, I sorta feel this is my Horse Stance Groinpuncher moment, but:

 

I would be sad to lose teleport foe. I know it's nearly always sort of useless, but it is a way to pull people without needing line of sight to them, and if you have trip mines, it can be Very Nice Occasionally. I recognize that it's highly situational and often goes completely unused, but every so often it's really nice to have a way to yoink someone from far away, and put them exactly where you predict they will not want to be.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, seebs said:

Okay, I sorta feel this is my Horse Stance Groinpuncher moment, but:

 

I would be sad to lose teleport foe. I know it's nearly always sort of useless, but it is a way to pull people without needing line of sight to them, and if you have trip mines, it can be Very Nice Occasionally. I recognize that it's highly situational and often goes completely unused, but every so often it's really nice to have a way to yoink someone from far away, and put them exactly where you predict they will not want to be.

You can still teleport foes, Teleport Target does it. You just need to respec to pick the power up if you didn't have Recall Friend already.

[Skygoddess]

Is fold space working correctly?  It doesn't do anything on my blaster even after aim+BU.

[ScarySai]

Are you using it within 100yds of your target? It's a pbaoe.

[seebs]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

You can still teleport foes, Teleport Target does it. You just need to respec to pick the power up if you didn't have Recall Friend already.

I somehow failed to comprehend that part of the description of Teleport Target.

 

I think what threw me off was that it was a perfectly clear sentence in my native language. I was clearly unprepared.

[arkieboy72472]

I have been screwing around in cimeroa on my Grav/Time controller. I have found that if I hover just high enough that a drop is involved and then drop the slow patch from time directly below me, more times than not the bad guys, when I use Fold Space, fall in the same pattern that Wormhole does. The fall sets up mitigation and a properly timed Mass Immobilize sets them up nice and neat. If I drop the intangeable bubble on myself right after then come in, they can no longer move, setting them up nicely for any melee team mate. With slow patches and timed mass immobs and holds, fold space can become just as good as wormhole. For any sets with a mass stun like earth, you can mitigate any drawbacks. For funsies, you can fold groups while you hover over water to make them take a bath. A power like tar patch or quick sand allows room for error with a hover fold space. they drop quite nicely.

[arkieboy72472]

2 hours ago, tealzaire said:

Is fold space working correctly?  It doesn't do anything on my blaster even after aim+BU.

If you are outside of range or no targets are applicable, nothing happens.

 

[Moonlighter]

I am liking Combat Teleport; I am not saying it is super useful but it's fun. I agree it should give a small defense buff for a time after using it to match Hover and Combat Jumping.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Moonlighter

[Hew]

6 hours ago, Moonlighter said:

I am liking Combat Teleport; I am not saying it is super useful but it's fun. I agree it should give a small defense buff for a time after using it to match Hover and Combat Jumping.

 

I actually like it, specifically because it does NOT slot defense (grrr muling), and also because a CT boosts my tohit immediately for things like:

 

ct -> nuke -> RUNAWAAAAAY!

[Hew]

2 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

Reductio ad absurdum arguments don't exactly help your case.

No, but there is an awful lot of armchair quarterbacking going on, as well as people unwilling to experiment/try new things. I think if people, you know, actually tried things, tried NEW things, looked at things from a different perspective or pov, they would find out nifty things like @arkieboy72472. For sure, setup like they mentioned with fs + intang as a multi-power bind is pretty crazy. I would worry about what would happen with all that agro, but there are powers that specialize in that, like hold fields (darks hold sphere for instance).

[KaizenSoze]

12 hours ago, tealzaire said:

Is fold space working correctly?  It doesn't do anything on my blaster even after aim+BU.

You are probably out of range, which I have complained about. There is no indication why it's failing, either do to range or LOS issues.

[InvaderStych]

3 hours ago, Hew said:

I actually like it, specifically because it does NOT slot defense (grrr muling), and also because a CT boosts my tohit immediately for things like:

Mostly agreed.  Less so on the "grrr" part, more so because I think the the +to-hit is more thematic:  "Surprise!!!" "Thwack!"

 

Subjective reasoning:

 

Suddenly appear in front of a hero/villain and they might be able to maintain enough composure to swing back at you successfully, but their  "active defenses" (in a narrative sense, not toggles and whatnot)  won't have kicked in before you get off your first shot.  It's like a sucker-punch.  The hero/villain getting hit will probably be able to swing back (no def bonus), but the hero/villain swinging is very likely to land that unexpected hit (+to-hit).

 

Also, my animal brain whispers to me that if they switch it to slot Def IOs they'll feel the need to "balance" it by slowing it down.  And that's a hard no from me. 😄  Of course I am willing to admit that the preceding is wild conjecture based on animal brain trying to trick me into getting all defensive about something that really isn't that crucial: just really, really, really fun, lol.

Edited November 1, 2020 by InvaderStych
cleanup, aisle everywhere

[Dragon Crush]

24 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Subjective reasoning:

 

Suddenly appear in front of a hero/villain and they might be able to maintain enough composure to swing back at you successfully, but their  "active defenses" (in a narrative sense, not toggles and whatnot)  won't have kicked in before you get off your first shot.  It's like a sucker-punch.  The hero/villain getting hit will probably be able to swing back (no def bonus), but the hero/villain swinging is very likely to land that unexpected hit (+to-hit).

 

Honestly, I feel both to-hit and defense fit thematically, to-hit is as you said a sucker punch, and defense because if someone's bamfing around you don't know exactly where to aim or might be unsure of your attacks because you have no idea if the person is going to disappear again mid swing.

[aethereal]

Defense is obviously thematic for combat teleport, and it would not need to be balanced differently.  Combat teleport, if it provided defense, would replace hover or combat jumping in some builds.  People who are hardcore looking for a fourth pool to add another defense power (after speed, leaping or flying, and fighting) already have concealment and leadership as options.

[Moonlighter]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

Mostly agreed.  Less so on the "grrr" part, more so because I think the the +to-hit is more thematic:  "Surprise!!!" "Thwack!"

 

Subjective reasoning:

 

Suddenly appear in front of a hero/villain and they might be able to maintain enough composure to swing back at you successfully, but their  "active defenses" (in a narrative sense, not toggles and whatnot)  won't have kicked in before you get off your first shot.  It's like a sucker-punch.  The hero/villain getting hit will probably be able to swing back (no def bonus), but the hero/villain swinging is very likely to land that unexpected hit (+to-hit).

 

Also, my animal brain whispers to me that if they switch it to slot Def IOs they'll feel the need to "balance" it by slowing it down.  And that's a hard no from me. 😄  Of course I am willing to admit that the preceding is wild conjecture based on animal brain trying to trick me into getting all defensive about something that really isn't that crucial: just really, really, really fun, lol.

Nightcrawler is *really* hard to hit. Teleporters in the comics almost universally use the ability to avoid hits.

 

 

[Koopak]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

Defense is obviously thematic for combat teleport, and it would not need to be balanced differently.  Combat teleport, if it provided defense, would replace hover or combat jumping in some builds.  People who are hardcore looking for a fourth pool to add another defense power (after speed, leaping or flying, and fighting) already have concealment and leadership as options.

I agree thematics work for both to hit and defense, but this is actually my argument for why it should stay to-hit. If you want more defense there are plenty of options, its not unique or interesting, it doesn't encourage a build to adjust around it to incorporate it in an interesting way.

Lets say we make it so CT gives defense equivalent to CJ or Hover, you now replace those powers with CT. You haven't changed anything but one power and, arguably, allowed teleporters to not invest in jumping or flight. At best you open up a pool pick.

With this to-hit, a player can instead drop tactics or focused accuracy, or possibly adjust enhancements for a lower target accuracy value. This means that you may be opening up an Epic pick, a pool pick, or an entire enhancement plan for every power with accuracy checks.

Again I've got no horse in this race, as long as CT functions as is for cast time, cool down, range, so on? I don't mind what if any additional benefits it gives, my arguments are mostly from my enjoyment of making and designing builds and creating interesting power combinations. There are loads of ways to bump your defense, not so many for your to-hit, and sure ill accept one can argue that to-hit is a less valuable stat, but id counter that with the argument that CT is a far more valuable movement option.

 

 

20 hours ago, ScarySai said:

The core issue is that, even if we disregard combat entirely, teleport feels awful to use indoors.

 

CT is nice but it really isn't that helpful for that particular usage. 

I don't know that I completely agree. I will say it does feel WORSE to use indoors, but I think that's mostly because the core issue crops up more in that environment. I think the biggest problem is the hover lock, being stuck unable to move. The attacks ending the effect are a good step for combat, but we aren't teleporting into combat much, usually we teleport to a mission door or contact, or some other clickable. This becomes a problem when you land a bit out of range or when it has an interaction time because the end of the hover and landing interrupts those.

I cant count how many times iv landed near my target contact, just outside of talk range, and flailed helplessly for a second. It not a serious issue, but it is annoying as hell. One thing that could help a lot, assuming its possible, is doing a scan below the character after they teleport and if they are essentially only a unit or two above an acceptable piece of ground, nix the hover. However I don't know how practical that is to do from a dev perspective. Another option would be to make the hover mechanic dismissable and allow us to bind that dismissal to a key or macro or such, bit slap dash but it would work.

I'm not sure what else would work.


As for myself I want to see some movement on Teleport Team and Fold Space/Teleport Target magnitudes, but I don't think there much left to say on either, just hoping they have been noted and marked in a design doc somewhere.

(edit:) At this rate I'm going to get a rep for being a wind bag

Edited November 1, 2020 by Koopak

[RageusQuitus2]

6 minutes ago, Koopak said:

s becomes a problem when you land a bit out of range or when it has an interaction time because the end of the hover and landing interrupts those.

I cant count how many times iv landed near my target contact, just outside of talk range, and flailed helplessly for a second. It not a serious issue, but it is annoying as hell. One thing that could help a lot, assuming its possible, is doing a scan below the character after they teleport and if they are essentially only a unit or two above an acceptable piece of ground, nix the hover. However I don't know how practical that is to do from a dev perspective. Another option would be to make the hover mechanic dismissable and allow us to bind that dismissal to a key or macro or such, bit slap dash but it would work.

I'm not sure what else would work.

I agree thats a big problem.  Even more so in PvP where any travel power can keep up with a teleporting mastermind.  Combine that with the fact youve left most of your pets half a map behind and are out of bg mode....  

[Koopak]

10 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

I agree thats a big problem.  Even more so in PvP where any travel power can keep up with a teleporting mastermind.  Combine that with the fact youve left most of your pets half a map behind and are out of bg mode....  

Yeah i keep forgetting MMs are ESPECIALLY hurt but the way Teleport functions. Which is ironic because i mained a MM for a year when CoV first came out that used TP, i know your pain.

[dtj714]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:39 AM, Jimmy said:

 

Teleportation has been considered one of the least desirable pools for a while (outside of specific uses, like Stone Armor) due to the wide availability of other travel options. In order to make the set more appealing, we've added two new powers with new mechanics. Combat Teleport emulates the feeling of Speed of Sound's Jaunt to quickly traverse the battlefield without the endurance cost burden of an active travel power, whilst Fold Space introduces a new way to play in melee - bring the enemies to you, instead of going to them!

 

To make room for these, Recall Friend and Teleport Foe have been combined into one power and Long Range Teleport has been removed from the set and is now an unlockable Accolade power.

Take a look at the new version of the accolade - they’ve done with it exactly what should be done with the pool power (with the exception of the recharge, which should stay as it is in a set power). In doing so, they’ve undercut both sides of the rationale for the “out of the pool/in as an accolade” change.

 

Jimmy, you’ve proven that LRTP can be vastly improved within it’s explicit scope and purpose. Respect the intent and vision of the original devs in this instance and leave it in the pool. All the improvements/additions you’ve made to Base travel should be sufficient for general travel enhancement, especially when you can port to Base every 30 seconds with a “free” day job.

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

Take a look at the new version of the accolade - they’ve done with it exactly what should be done with the pool power (with the exception of the recharge, which should stay as it is in a set power). In doing so, they’ve undercut both sides of the rationale for the “out of the pool/in as an accolade” change.

 

Jimmy, you’ve proven that LRTP can be vastly improved within it’s explicit scope and purpose. Respect the intent and vision of the original devs in this instance and leave it in the pool. All the improvements/additions you’ve made to Base travel should be sufficient for general travel enhancement, especially when you can port to Base every 30 seconds with a “free” day job.

You’re losing nothing and getting a lot and arguing for what? That others shouldn’t have fast travel because that’s Teleports perk? It makes no sense.

[Coyotedancer]

Huh. 'Never thought I'd see someone getting grumpy over people having access to the zone teleport... I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I admit that I am. o_0

It's reminding me a little of the arguments we saw back-in-the-day when Fitness went inherent. 

[dtj714]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You’re losing nothing and getting a lot and arguing for what? That others shouldn’t have fast travel because that’s Teleports perk? It makes no sense.

The rationale goes like this - LRTP sucks so we’re going to remove it from the TP pool, but we don’t really want to remove altogether so we’re going to put it in as an accolade for those that really like/want it (see Jimmy’s post in the general travel thread). With what they’ve done now, that rationale evaporates. 
 

I’m not saying others shouldn’t have fast travel - they can and do with all the other improvements made. But if you improve a power in line with its exact purpose and function, then it’s overall fit within the game should remain, not be turned on it’s head. 

[Wavicle]

23 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

The rationale goes like this - LRTP sucks so we’re going to remove it from the TP pool, but we don’t really want to remove altogether so we’re going to put it in as an accolade for those that really like/want it (see Jimmy’s post in the general travel thread). With what they’ve done now, that rationale evaporates. 
 

I’m not saying others shouldn’t have fast travel - they can and do with all the other improvements made. But if you improve a power in line with its exact purpose and function, then it’s overall fit within the game should remain, not be turned on it’s head. 

But that Isn’t the argument. LRTP doesn’t suck, it’s just not something that should be a pool power.