Focused Feedback: Other Powers Changes

[Parabola]

7 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

For the most part, it is expected that many will ignore the power on end-game optimal builds, the power is meant to help more casual builds achieve a minimum level of AoE self-suficiency, something this game basically mandates given the emphasis on defeating large number of enemies.

I get the thinking here but this does essentially suggest that a primary (or secondary) powerset aoe is expected to be replaced by a tertiary (epic pool) aoe in high end builds. I thought that the general design paradigm is for primary>secondary>tertiary? Dark melee is always going to need at least one more aoe beyond shadow maul, I would prefer to make the additional in set aoe the first choice for this with an epic aoe as an alternative rather than the other way around. This also creates an issue with how easy it is to exemp without a dedicated exemping build that has touch of fear in it.

[Maxzero]

12 minutes ago, parabola said:

I get the thinking here but this does essentially suggest that a primary (or secondary) powerset aoe is expected to be replaced by a tertiary (epic pool) aoe in high end builds. I thought that the general design paradigm is for primary>secondary>tertiary? Dark melee is always going to need at least one more aoe beyond shadow maul, I would prefer to make the additional in set aoe the first choice for this with an epic aoe as an alternative rather than the other way around. This also creates an issue with how easy it is to exemp without a dedicated exemping build that has touch of fear in it.

 

I mean is the AoE ToF THAT bad?

 

With procs I am looking a mid 200s Aoe for my Tanker with a high target cap and a 2.88 sec recharge. Unlike PPP AoEs I will still have it when I exemp down.

 

A procced out PPP AoE is looking at 350+ damage but on a 12 sec CD (the AoE Immo is about 250 damage on a 6-7 sec CD).

 

Seems to be one of the better lower level AoEs.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Maxzero

[summers]

1 minute ago, Maxzero said:

 

I mean is the AoE ToF THAT bad?

 

With procs I am looking a mid 200s Aoe for my Tanker with a high target cap and a 2.88 sec recharge. Unlike PPP AoEs I will still have it when I exemp down.

 

A procced out PPP AoE is looking at 350+ damage but on a 12 sec CD (the AoE Immo is about 250 damage on a 6-7 sec CD).

 

Seems to be one of the better lower level AoEs.

I'm not who you quoted but my disappointment is just how spammy the attack is. It's on a lightning fast recharge and I will get very bored watching the same animation over and over again.

 

As s soon as you are hitting two enemies you are getting value out of it so... you'll do that a lot.

[Maxzero]

2 minutes ago, summers said:

I'm not who you quoted but my disappointment is just how spammy the attack is. It's on a lightning fast recharge and I will get very bored watching the same animation over and over again.

 

As s soon as you are hitting two enemies you are getting value out of it so... you'll do that a lot.

 

Honestly most AoE 'rotations' consist of only 2-3 attacks anyway. The only reason you don't notice the animations and 'spaminess' is that there is a usually a several second wait between each rotation.

 

I would rather be spamming an AoE then doing nothing (or using ST attacks) waiting for CDs to come up.

[summers]

1 minute ago, Maxzero said:

 

Honestly most AoE 'rotations' consist of only 2-3 attacks anyway. The only reason you don't notice the animations and 'spaminess' is that there is a usually a several second wait between each rotation.

 

I would rather be spamming an AoE then doing nothing (or using ST attacks) waiting for CDs to come up.

 

I'd encourage you to try the powers out and see for yourself. Yes - a lot of AOE chains are just a few powers, but they have noteable gaps.

 

Dark Melee won't play that way:

 

TLDR: 45% of the attack chain is your one attack

[Parabola]

8 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

I mean is the AoE ToF THAT bad?

 

With procs I am looking a mid 200s Aoe for my Tanker with a high target cap and a 2.88 sec recharge. Unlike PPP AoEs I will still have it when I exemp down.

 

A procced out PPP AoE is looking at 350+ damage but on a 12 sec CD (the AoE Immo is about 250 damage on a 6-7 sec CD).

 

Seems to be one of the better lower level AoEs.

Bear in mind we are expecting some changes to procs at some point. I think it might be safer to ignore procs while assessing the merits of powers until we know what form those changes are going to take.

[Maxzero]

1 minute ago, parabola said:

Bear in mind we are expecting some changes to procs at some point. I think it might be safer to ignore procs while assessing the merits of powers until we know what form those changes are going to take.

 

If anything proc changes would benefit ToF the best due to the low CD. The PPP attacks would suffer the most.

 

Until we know what those changes are there is no point taking them into account.

[Maxzero]

15 minutes ago, summers said:

 

I'd encourage you to try the powers out and see for yourself. Yes - a lot of AOE chains are just a few powers, but they have noteable gaps.

 

Dark Melee won't play that way:

 

TLDR: 45% of the attack chain is your one attack

 

Why is gaps a good thing? I don't want them in my ST rotation why would I want them in my AoE rotation?

 

Instead of doing nothing waiting for CDs you are spending your time doing an effective AoE when needed. Isn't that a good?

 

I am not opposed to a longer CD for better effect but the 'spammy' argument does not seem significant to me when it comes to AoEing.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Maxzero

[Parabola]

2 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

If anything proc changes would benefit ToF the best due to the low CD. The PPP attacks would suffer the most.

 

Until we know what those changes are there is no point taking them into account.

What I'm saying is that 'works well with procs' should be considered a bonus rather than a balance metric. Some AT's (like tanks) benefit disproportionately from procs but this change has to work for all AT's that have dark melee. I've got two DM tanks with a third in the works and my immediate thought was 'spammy proc bomb, great' but I don't think that is the way the power should be balanced.

[Maxzero]

5 minutes ago, parabola said:

What I'm saying is that 'works well with procs' should be considered a bonus rather than a balance metric. Some AT's (like tanks) benefit disproportionately from procs but this change has to work for all AT's that have dark melee. I've got two DM tanks with a third in the works and my immediate thought was 'spammy proc bomb, great' but I don't think that is the way the power should be balanced.

ToF actually has higher base damage then BL or Elec Fences. ToF isn't that great a proc bomb due to the low CD.

 

Any changes to procs would actually benefit ToF and hurt the PPP AoEs relatively because they rely a lot more on procs for their damage.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Maxzero

[SentaiLavender]

Eagle's Claw has always just been a Rider Kick. Now that it hits multiple targets, the obvious animation fix is to add a giant explosion at the end, like so.

 

But seriously, just a little "shockwave" effect originating from the target would make the attack read more clearly as a cone.

[Gobbledigook]

If ToF stays with its Cooldown and damage then surely Claws scrappers should be worried that Spin will be pulled up in a comparison. Though looking at it again ToF/Claws comparison isn't too bad. I would just raise ToF cooldown to 10 seconds at least.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Blackbird71]

12 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

We all know you have kicked nazi robots so hard they exploded. 😉

 

Robots? I once kicked a Nazi submarine so hard it exploded.

Yeah, that was one of my more amusing screenshots.  Totally not immersion-breaking at all. 

[Brutal Justice]

Crane kick should have been the recipient of these changes to eagle’s claw.  The animation matches much better.  Crane kick and cobra strike are also clones in animation time and damage per activation, which makes taking both of the powers uneconomical, considering they are mediocre performers.  

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

If ToF stays with its Cooldown and damage then surely Claws scrappers should be worried that Spin will be pulled up in a comparison. Though looking at it again ToF/Claws comparison isn't too bad. I would just raise ToF cooldown to 10 seconds at least.

Claws has follow up and a longer recharge. Spin also doesn't debuff or knockdown anything, so it gets more leeway in the damage formula.

 

I agree that ToF should hit just slightly harder, or at least animate faster. If the ability didn't feel so sluggish the current implementation wouldn't bother me much. Perhaps if it were a longer cd and had a 1.65ish activation time?

[ShardWarrior]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:43 AM, Jimmy said:

 Eagle's Claw

• This power now hits in a small cone

Thematically this does not make much sense to me.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 8:43 AM, Jimmy said:

 Shadow Maul

• Target cap reduced from 10 to 5 (16 to 10 for Tankers)

Ugh.  Why do this?  One of the benefits of being locked into a lengthier animation was the target cap.  I am guessing my DM/Shield Brute is going to get shelved after this. 

[BZRKR]

16 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

On 10/24/2020 at 2:28 PM, Vanden said:

Range/melee has everything to do with it, the sets are designed around whether they'll be put in ranged or melee attacks.

 

This is a change that might not happen until a future update. It's still possible we might re-brand TAoE as "Ranged AoE" and PBAoE as "Melee AoE" but that likely wont be this update (not ruling it out but hands are full all around,) this might mean this power will go as is for now and be changed in the future, but until we are sure to go that way we will follow the same standard as Street Justice.

From a build point of view, I find it very valuable to see a variety of options for IO types in power sets. 

[Gobbledigook]

Raise ToF to 11 seconds cooldown, the same as Shadow Maul. Increase the damage due to the increased cooldown. The Radius is a little low also. 6ft-8ft would be better. The fear should be main target only but the to hit debuff should affect all.

 

I still think Soul drain and Dark consumption should be condensed into one power freeing up a power slot for something cool. Or turn Dark consumption into an auto +recovery power that increases with mobs around. At least that would be one AoE less.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[TC]

17 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

MA is indeed one of the sets. That stated, the set is one of the ones that got the least attention during closed testing, so it is in the most flexible position right now. As it stands right now, the cone change is a bit over-stated. Think more of it as a Thunder Strike Splash, that happens to be in a cone instead of the main target. Secondary targets don't take full damage. Keep your eyes on the patch notes and stay active in the discussions.

 

 

We all know you have kicked nazi robots so hard they exploded. 😉

 

Your first point, if we really need to get super technical, the AoE from MA is "ok". It's better than some and worse than plenty others. If it needs buffed, though... just buff Dragon's Claw itself maybe?

 

In regards to the Nazi robots, this is correct. My MA characters are very strong and not natural heroes, probably around Captain America strength. They can definitely smash some robots and other hard surfaces. But they're not All Might, Superman, or a Jedi. They can't kick air so hard it knocks people out behind the primary target. I may be reading into it too much, I admit, but the strength required to break metal isn't anywhere close to the strength required to propel air so hard you can break bones in the distance. I can break metal in my backyard with a sledgehammer in real life. However, I do not have a vacuum gun that shoots air at mach 1 to take down my neighbor's unsightly bushes. 

 

Do you mind me asking what the philosophy was behind making Eagle's Claw a cone? I appreciate your response but it doesn't really provide me much insight into why the change was made. It still seems very silly to me that we'd change Eagle's Claw into a cone instead of two other powers that both already sort of look like they could be cones, Crane Kick or Storm Kick.

 

Also, do you happen to have any input on the homogenization thoughts? This has happened with a few powersets now, and while I agree I think some baseline AoE would be nice for most of the powersets in the game, I really hope we don't start seeing every set get good at AoE. If I had it my way, MA would get mild damage buffs to Dragon's Tail and Eagle's Claw. The set already feels pretty great to play, it's just a little undertuned.

Edited October 26, 2020 by TC

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, TC said:

Do you mind me asking what the philosophy was behind making Eagle's Claw a cone? I appreciate your response but it doesn't really provide me much insight into why the change was made. It still seems very silly to me that we'd change Eagle's Claw into a cone instead of two other powers that both already sort of look like they could be cones, Crane Kick or Storm Kick.

I would be interested to hear the reasoning behind this as well.  I would agree Storm Kick with its spinning animation makes more sense as a cone to me. 

[Vanden]

17 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

This is a change that might not happen until a future update. It's still possible we might re-brand TAoE as "Ranged AoE" and PBAoE as "Melee AoE" but that likely wont be this update (not ruling it out but hands are full all around,) this might mean this power will go as is for now and be changed in the future, but until we are sure to go that way we will follow the same standard as Street Justice.

Touch of Fear is the first attack of this type that you and Homecoming team have added to the game. Just be aware that what you choose to allow it to slot is going to set the precedent for this type of attack going forward (this is why I'm pushing so hard on the topic).

[Blackfeather]

9 hours ago, SentaiLavender said:

Eagle's Claw has always just been a Rider Kick. Now that it hits multiple targets, the obvious animation fix is to add a giant explosion at the end, like so.

 

But seriously, just a little "shockwave" effect originating from the target would make the attack read more clearly as a cone.

Adding a different effect instead of the "dust cloud" kick would be pretty neat!

[Jimmy]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:43 PM, Jimmy said:

 Energy Focus

• Previously Energy Focus could only be acquired once every 15 seconds, regardless of if you used it or not - you can now regain it again immediately after it has been spent

Added this missing fix.

[Troo]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:43 AM, Jimmy said:

 Touch of Fear

• Now a melee targeted AoE with a 10 target cap (16 for Tankers)

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Added this missing fix.

I don't like what's happening with Whirling Hands as I like to get that real good beefy damage out there as it has been and then follow up with the other stuff in my arsenal.  Yes it has more potential for proc'ing but I don't like the idea of getting caught in a Whirling Hands loop just to maintain the damage I had been doing with it because it is now doing half the damage per animation.  

 

That being said I like this change to the Energy Mechanic being always available with no lockout and hopefully the buggyness has been worked out.  So it seems to be a nerf to the aoe damage (especially based on playstyle) for a buff to the ST damage.  

 

Some doms are aoe machines but for the most part by just the sheer design of their attack structures they seem to be more specialized in ST damage.  So if we're making the mechanic consistent and getting what is the likely outcome of a buff to Energy's ST damage I can live with this.