An old thought... probably been suggested many times...

[Ultimo]

So... it's never seemed quite fair to me that Defenders (and Corruptors, Masterminds, etc.) can't actually use their defensive powers THEMSELVES.

 

For example, my latest project involves making a Green Lantern homage, and I really like the idea of Force Fields.  It's totally in character.  However, I can't use any of my powers to defend ME (except PFF, but you can't fight with that active, and Dispersion Bubble just lacks the personality of the smaller bubbles... and very often makes it hard to SEE - and yes, I know there's a minimal FX setting).  I never quite understood WHY we can't use our own bubbles on ourselves.

 

Now, you might suggest that would make Defenders (etc.) OP, but I don't agree.  I find them to be... honestly rather weak.  Their damage is pretty minimal, and they have next to no personal defenses.  Sure, they can take things like Combat Jumping, Tough and Weave and the like.... but I don't know why they're FORCED to... I mean, they HAVE defensive powers, they're just not allowed to USE them.  Moreover, if they take the team buffs, that's three power slots that are doing nothing for them when they're solo (which is most of the time, in my experience).  I find that distressing, because it puts them at an even GREATER disadvantage.

 

So, my suggestion is to allow characters with these kinds of power to use them on THEMSELVES.  Perhaps they could have a lesser effect, or shorter duration or something... but they really should be able to use them for their own sake.

 

First Responders are always taught... Help yourself FIRST, you're no use to anyone if you're dead.

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

Yes it's not nearly a new thought (surprise! right 😜).  And this issue is far more an issue for the buffing sets vs those that debuff for what I'd hope are obvious reasons.  

 

Not sure how truly overpowered it would make Defenders (support sets in general) as essentially it would make them 'overpowered' one team member sooner.  That said I've no doubt the toughest deadliest teams consist of predominantly support characters.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Doomguide2005

[Epoch Paradox]

On 11/10/2020 at 8:57 PM, Ultimo said:

So... it's never seemed quite fair to me that Defenders (and Corruptors, Masterminds, etc.) can't actually use their defensive powers THEMSELVES.

 

For example, my latest project involves making a Green Lantern homage, and I really like the idea of Force Fields.  It's totally in character.  However, I can't use any of my powers to defend ME (except PFF, but you can't fight with that active, and Dispersion Bubble just lacks the personality of the smaller bubbles... and very often makes it hard to SEE - and yes, I know there's a minimal FX setting).  I never quite understood WHY we can't use our own bubbles on ourselves.

 

Now, you might suggest that would make Defenders (etc.) OP, but I don't agree.  I find them to be... honestly rather weak.  Their damage is pretty minimal, and they have next to no personal defenses.  Sure, they can take things like Combat Jumping, Tough and Weave and the like.... but I don't know why they're FORCED to... I mean, they HAVE defensive powers, they're just not allowed to USE them.  Moreover, if they take the team buffs, that's three power slots that are doing nothing for them when they're solo (which is most of the time, in my experience).  I find that distressing, because it puts them at an even GREATER disadvantage.

 

So, my suggestion is to allow characters with these kinds of power to use them on THEMSELVES.  Perhaps they could have a lesser effect, or shorter duration or something... but they really should be able to use them for their own sake.

 

First Responders are always taught... Help yourself FIRST, you're no use to anyone if you're dead.

 

 

Blaster secondaries are getting a reworking now, maybe next could be support sets? Seams possible anyway! I'm sure there are ways to implement some of these ideas, even if it's  something along the lines of Defender's damage buff when solo then diminished as the team grows? I really enjoy those ATs (fender/ cor) and can be very versatile game play. Around 2002 I played my first character Fire/Kin controller and have always wanted to have Increase Density and speed boost work for the one that's giving it. How can you give something you don't have? Anyway, I hear you! In the meantime we can search out teams that can buff back. I hear all defender/corr type teams can really tear it up!

[Tsuko]

On 11/11/2020 at 3:57 AM, Ultimo said:

So... it's never seemed quite fair to me that Defenders (and Corruptors, Masterminds, etc.) can't actually use their defensive powers THEMSELVES.

 

For example, my latest project involves making a Green Lantern homage, and I really like the idea of Force Fields.  It's totally in character.  However, I can't use any of my powers to defend ME (except PFF, but you can't fight with that active, and Dispersion Bubble just lacks the personality of the smaller bubbles... and very often makes it hard to SEE - and yes, I know there's a minimal FX setting).  I never quite understood WHY we can't use our own bubbles on ourselves.

 

Now, you might suggest that would make Defenders (etc.) OP, but I don't agree.  I find them to be... honestly rather weak.  Their damage is pretty minimal, and they have next to no personal defenses.  Sure, they can take things like Combat Jumping, Tough and Weave and the like.... but I don't know why they're FORCED to... I mean, they HAVE defensive powers, they're just not allowed to USE them.  Moreover, if they take the team buffs, that's three power slots that are doing nothing for them when they're solo (which is most of the time, in my experience).  I find that distressing, because it puts them at an even GREATER disadvantage.

 

So, my suggestion is to allow characters with these kinds of power to use them on THEMSELVES.  Perhaps they could have a lesser effect, or shorter duration or something... but they really should be able to use them for their own sake.

 

First Responders are always taught... Help yourself FIRST, you're no use to anyone if you're dead.

 

 

Maybe using the same decrease based on the size of the team than Vigilance.

[HalfFlat]

I strongly agree.

 

This distinction between team and self buffs has irritated me from the beginning: it makes little sense thematically, and exacerbates the differences in solo playability between archetypes. It appears to be a decision to support a standard MMORPG class trinity. Frustrated cries for something closer to parity were met with retorts from other parts of the player base along the lines of: no one would team if everyone could solo. Ignoring, of course, the fact that the majority of game content could be tackled solo, if you were playing one of a small number of ATs.

But CoH in many other regards has not fully committed to this design choice, and is the stronger for it. A Controller is not a Healer; a Scrapper is not solely DPS. And the problems of a Tank/DPS/Healer design are well known (see e.g. https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132607/rethinking_the_trinity_of_mmo_.php). The Defender AT is in better shape than it was initially: Vigilance helps to address the damage problem, and IO set bonuses can ameliorate some of the survivability issues. But the huge disparity in solo capability between ATs remains, and Defenders are certainly in the shallow end of the pool.

From a playability point of view:

• Without a good reason not to support it, the full gamut of ATs and power sets should be able to be employed in creating and playing a particular character concept.
• One can't presume to always be able to play in a team, nor should players be forced to play in a team. On one hand, it's simply not always possible to find team members. On the other, one might not always want to play in a team. This decision should be independent of the AT one chooses to play.
• What may be an enjoyable romp through a mission at one speed, can be a dull chore when slowed down by a factor of three or more. Contrariwise, being able to trivially complete missions owing to a different AT choice is also undesirable.
• The notion of 'feeling heroic' is contentious, but for many players, myself included, if a battle with a single lieutenant of a great many in a mission is a struggle, it pegs the character's power at only one step above a random mook. It can be uninspiring. A character's effective strength against mission foes can in fact decrease with level, at least over part of their career.

In the end game, when IO bonuses, epic pool and incarnate powers have bolstered Defender survivability and damage, one finds that the relative utility of the Defender on a team is diminished in end game content: the same advantages that have lifted the Defender up, have also, of course, helped other ATs, and outside special mission mechanics, the benefit of a Defender may simply be less than that brought by adding another damage-focused character.

Removing self vs team bonuses can help redress some of this imbalance and promote AT diversity.

[DanaDark]

TL;DR: Yes, let Defender powers effect themselves. In return, remove the solo buff they get (not totally solo but close).

[Darkir]

lol, I would absolutely love this, but it would be so OP. Imagine a kinetics defender or corruptor with fulcrum shift+speed boost+2 siphon speeds+increased density, that would be capped damage, 90% recharge, 40% s/e resistance (defender values), and mez protection. That's insane for one character to have access to out of the box without any IOs, pool powers, or incarnates. 

 

A cold domination toon could add 1k max HP (but more importantly a ton of regen), add 31% defense to all positions, and still have sleet+heat loss for a ton of -res and huge end recovery. 

 

Most sets would be brokenly strong if you changed all their powers to affect themselves too. The game is easy enough as it is, I want the power, but I think it would lessen the game as a whole. 

 

 

[Force Redux]

I mean, Time/Nature can receive everything they also give, so why not FF, Thermal, Ice, or Sonic?

[Ultimo]

10 hours ago, Darkir said:

lol, I would absolutely love this, but it would be so OP. Imagine a kinetics defender or corruptor with fulcrum shift+speed boost+2 siphon speeds+increased density, that would be capped damage, 90% recharge, 40% s/e resistance (defender values), and mez protection. That's insane for one character to have access to out of the box without any IOs, pool powers, or incarnates. 

 

A cold domination toon could add 1k max HP (but more importantly a ton of regen), add 31% defense to all positions, and still have sleet+heat loss for a ton of -res and huge end recovery. 

 

Most sets would be brokenly strong if you changed all their powers to affect themselves too. The game is easy enough as it is, I want the power, but I think it would lessen the game as a whole. 

 

 

If it's not broken when the Defender applies it to someone else, why would it be broken when it's the Defender who gets the benefit?

[Ankhammon]

When the game was first designed, it was around a 5 AT system... a Pentity?  The original hope was that it would force teaming since no one char could do the hard content alone (TFs and the like).

 

That died in like I1 when certain builds broke the system fairly easily (I'm looking at you Ice/Fire tanks and AR/Dev blasters). and since then it's been going to a more solo friendly version of the game.

 

That being said, I don't know if I can think of a legit reason for a Defender to not be allowed to self buff due to all the other restrictions on the class (low damage ceiling, low damage in general). We're really only taking about a few buffs from several sets.

 

Some don't even have much of this issue, such as TA, Dark, Rad, EAff (mostly), storm, time, traps, NAff. 

That leaves poison, kin Emp, FF, Sonic, Cold, Therm and Pain.

 

Interesting that those with self buff issues are my least favorite Defender primaries (Poison being the exception). I tend to like them better as secondaries... prolly for this reason.

 

I will say it's never even slowed me down from having Defenders as my favorite AT.

I usually looked at issues like this as my char being a "lesser" hero (think Daredevil or Batman) as opposed to a "greater" hero (like Thor or Supes).

 

[chi1701]

On 11/20/2020 at 12:47 PM, DanaDark said:

TL;DR: Yes, let Defender powers effect themselves. In return, remove the solo buff they get (not totally solo but close).

the 30% damage buff to a archype with already lowest damage?

[chi1701]

Self targeting buffs, would this be something a defender can only do, or would this extend to corruptors and controllers? 

[Force Redux]

I would think if this ever would  happen it would apply to any support secondary that buffs on any AT. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Force Redux

[Ultimo]

16 hours ago, Force Redux said:

I would think if this ever would  happen it would apply to any support secondary that buffs on any AT. 

I would agree with that.  Also the pools, things like Spirit Ward would work on the caster, too.

[Vanden]

On 11/22/2020 at 12:59 AM, Ultimo said:

If it's not broken when the Defender applies it to someone else, why would it be broken when it's the Defender who gets the benefit?

Because buffs expire, and the Defender has to reapply them. The Defender might be defeated, or not in the same part of the map as the other player. Thus, both players have to stick together and protect each other, and team synergy is thus encouraged.

[golstat2003]

On 11/30/2020 at 9:15 AM, Force Redux said:

I would think if this ever would  happen it would apply to any support secondary that buffs on any AT. 

Yeah it'd pretty much have to or the players of the other ATs other than Defenders, with buffs, would scream bloody murder on the forums. 😝

[Coyote]

On 11/22/2020 at 12:59 AM, Ultimo said:

If it's not broken when the Defender applies it to someone else, why would it be broken when it's the Defender who gets the benefit?

 

Do the math on the defensive values of an Empath defender soloing, with the ability to self-buff.

 

Then look at the defenses of a SR Scrapper. And then a Regen scrapper. And compare to what the Empath can achieve for themselves. Capped defenses (though without DDR), better Regen, huge Recharge bonus, and no Endurance issues. While still being a team buffer with the two auras.

 

I've heard this suggestion posted many times, and it's only workable if the buffs used on self would be at 20-25% strength, at best.

[Force Redux]

3 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

Do the math on the defensive values of an Empath defender soloing, with the ability to self-buff.

 

Then look at the defenses of a SR Scrapper. And then a Regen scrapper. And compare to what the Empath can achieve for themselves. Capped defenses (though without DDR), better Regen, huge Recharge bonus, and no Endurance issues. While still being a team buffer with the two auras.

 

I've heard this suggestion posted many times, and it's only workable if the buffs used on self would be at 20-25% strength, at best.

Understood. The values would have to be examined for self buffing. 

 

But currently there is no parity with sets like Time, for example. 

[Coyote]

Well, if you compare Farsight to Fortitude, Fort is stronger and also buffs Damage. So it's a clearly stronger buff... that can't be cast on self, and can't be kept on the whole team. There is a clear design trade-off between power and useability... if Fortitude became usable on oneself, it would certainly be weaker, at least for oneself. Could it be argued that the "only part of the team" limitation on using Fortitude justifies the higher buff values and +Damage buffing? Possibly. It does a good amount more total buffage than Farsight, but only to about half the team and the user is expressly limited from it. So it could be argued that the limitation to only about half of a max team is enough to justify the higher buffing. And if it were usable on oneself at half value, that may compare reasonably to Fortitude, which would have higher Defense and ToHit but no Damage bonus.

 

So, looking at that and at other powers, there is certainly an argument that could be made that allowing weaker self-buffing wouldn't be unbalanced. And some powers like Fortitude may work even at higher values than 25%... it depends on the strength of the power, like Adrenaline Boost is a nutty buff because it's team-only. Allowing it to self at 25% would still be a pretty big deal. Maybe okay for a Tier 9 power, but definitely not at 50%.

[Doomguide2005]

Farsighted vs Fortitude 

 

Farsight is a 25ft rad buff.  Both its +defense and +to hit are weaker, the to hit by a fair margin --> 12.5 vs 18.5.  It also buffs perception.  Recharge is twice its duration.  It is quite possible to perma.

 

Fortitude is single target.  It's defense and to hit buffs are stronger.  It's recharge is half its duration.  It buffs damage (+31%), but not perception.  It is possible to keep an entire team buffed, but will take quite a dedicated buffer to buff 7 teammates.  4 or 5 is easy to maintain.

 

Both can be effected by Power Boost/Power Build Up and that's probably where Farsight gets it's biggest advantage.

 

A lone, self buffed Empath with IO sets ... is going to be a monster.  Regen near or at the AT hard cap (+2000% iirc), at or near the defense softcap vs ALL positions and types, between Tactics and Fort won't need accuracy enhancements vs well almost any foe.   Damage isn't going to be quite Kinetics like but Souldrain+Assault+Fortitude (+Vigilance?) isn't pitiful either.  And that's without PB or PBU in the picture (or things like proc'd Gaussian's triggering).  Likewise global recharge is +170 just from Hasten and AB.  That's sans slotting or set bonuses.   And I know I'd be pushing 300 on some of my builds before tacking on another 100 from AB.  And last Mez?  What mez!  Ever.  As in laugh at it harder than a Practiced Brawler stacked SR character.  I can easily protect my self at least as well as an AV with the PToD going.  Maybe Ghost Widow will get lucky and manage to hold me and will see what crazy amounts of +regen can do vs Soul Storm.

 

About the only thing left to say is the defender debuff sets will now be screaming for a buff to their sets.  

 

In short it ain't happening unless some serious nerf to self side of the buffs happens.

 

 

 

 

 

[VV]

I think one of the issues is that Buffs are already pretty OP, on a team, anyway. Adding inclusion of self would make them even more OP. Would you trade some buff values for inclusion of self? Lower buff numbers in exchange for the addition of self-inclusion?

 

Personally, this is why I used debuff sets much more often than buff sets. Debuffs affect all friendlies, even those not on your team. The other option is just to team with other supports. A team of supports is way more powerful than any other combo. Due to caps, the need for self-buffs is irrelevant in this case, since you will hit most of those with teammate buffs.

[Doomguide2005]

This a thousand times over.  When the word "superteam" comes up I'm thinking stacked buffs and debuffs i.e. support sets.  I think Pinball Wizards or Green Machine.  I think of the FRads or the barely IO'd early issue 9? team of 7 defenders and 1 controller of the RO network which chewed up a Master STF tackling and destroying all 4 Patrons at once with barely a pause of the team for "but this is Master attempt" moment.  Both these teams existed well before Incarnates and essentially before the player base really knew much about sets in general.  I for one don't want to see the relatively unique strength of CoX's buffs (and debuffs) weakened so they can be self buffs.

 

Now maybe something along the like Vigilance where the self buff is scaled to team size perhaps, but then again 3 Empaths is pretty much at or beyond the above numbers on SO's nevermind IO sets so ... 

 

[Force Redux]

A safe start would be allowing shield buffs to affect the caster also, not every buff. No one is making that argument I think. 

[Bartacus]

11 hours ago, Force Redux said:

A safe start would be allowing shield buffs to affect the caster also, not every buff. No one is making that argument I think. 

that's not a safe start. FF defenders not only can quite easily softcap defense to all positions with their buffs and minimal investment, but their buffs are permanent without any investment at all. 4 minute durations and a few seconds CD is not the same as Farsight which requires a decent investment to be perma and can't softcap by itself. And, tbh, I think Farsight is broken to begin with and should be nerfed to not be affected by Power boost in my opinion so it's not the best comparison.

[Doomguide2005]

Yeah Fortitude alone would make me leery of select buffs.  Putting an Empath with IO's into the upper 30's ish defense to all (Fort ~22 + 2*3% IOs + Maneuvers + Weave) when both RAs already do effect them is asking for trouble.  We already have Empaths doing solo runs of the ITF at +4/*8