Make Ice Control Cooler: A Control Powerset Buff

[Blackfeather]

3 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I read through your changes and the flash freeze idea is very creative but may be too complicated to implement? Not sure. If they can pull it off it would be an awesome and welcome change to the set to help mitigate alpha which the set sorely needs. I get that this is a control over time set but that doesn't mean you should HAVE to take a -tohit secondary to have some way to mitigate a mega alpha strike. It's not unreasonable to ask that a controller be able to actually do some controlling before he/she is blasted into the dirt.

Hey there, thanks for your response! I actually toned down my original implementation of Flash Freeze, which would have revamped the Sleep to be resistant to some level of damage. Instead, I looked at currently existing things inside the game to change this power up:

• Pets being summoned in the presence of enemies exist. E.g. Plant Control's Carrion Creepers
• Pets with a limited lifespan also exist. E.g. Plant Control's Carrion Creepers
• There are also enemies that deal damage upon being destroyed. E.g. the Sky Raiders' Force Field Generator
• Pets with aura powers also exist. E.g. Ice Control's Jack Frost

In other words, all the properties of the proposed Flash Freeze currently exist, to my knowledge - though considering @Tyrannical's thoughts on powerset recycling, I think I might defer to them on what's feasible or not (or if you know any others more versed in powers development, feel free to give them a shout!). You can read more on a potential implementation here:

While it's indeed a decent way of stopping initial strikes, Flash Freeze is only obtainable at level 18, which is a little late, especially compared with the other Control powersets which get similar powers at a lower level (not to mention more potent than a Sleep). And that's where Shiver comes in.

3 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

On that note, not sure I like shiver as a hold... even a chance for hold. (Though I wouldn't entirely rule it out) What about a big -dmg debuff? Much like the aura in ice armor (Chilling Embrace) but maybe more potent. That way if they do alpha you (or your team) it's for significantly less dmg? This would make sense, too. Though if you made the changes to flash freeze and then this you would effectively neuter any alpha strike which may be swinging the pendulum a bit too far?

Out of curiosity, why aren't you a fan of it? The change to Shiver is primarily based off of Poison's Neurotoxic Breath (which itself is basically Shiver 2.0), which has a low-ish chance to do a weak Hold (25%, Mag 2) - I figured that upping the chance and strength (50%, Mag 3 - considering adjusting the magnitude of that though) would make sense, especially considering it's in a Control powerset's arsenal.

 

Damage debuffs generally aren't that great against initial attacks, especially when you start to factor in the amount of enemies around that have status effect powers of their own. Plus, Ice Control's recharge debuffs (as a secondary effect to boot) kind of fill in a similar niche already.

 

Having it be a chance to Hold provides an early way for Ice Control to immediately lock down some enemies for a short period of time: time enough for Arctic Air's Confuse to kick in. Naturally, the chance aspect to it is designed to make Ice keep its -Recharge/-Movement focus compared to the other Control powersets.

 

As for the level of control that this grants, we can compare it to some other powersets:

• Darkness Control = Fearsome Stare (Cone Fear), Heart of Darkness (PBAoE Stun)
• Plant Control = Spore Burst (TAoE Sleep), Seeds of Confusion (Cone Confuse)
• Earth Control = Salt Crystals (PBAoE Sleep), Stalagmites (TAoE Stun)

I agree with @Solarverse - the AoE Sleeps in general ought to have something a bit extra to them. While they have their applications, they're a little niche. That aside, I'm sort of trying to demonstrate that the other Control powersets generally have a way of dealing with enemy alpha strikes at a lower level, something that Shiver's meant to fill, but less effectively (and to a lesser extent, Flash Freeze).

3 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

As for adding dmg to the set, I like shiver having a dmg component to it, I'd even be fine with it being moderate level dmg too! Though that may be pushing it.

It makes sense and gives the set a nice AoE hit. I just don't want that to affect the recharge if the power... 

 

I get that controller sets aren't supposed to do a lot of damage but I don't think there is an Ice controller out there that wouldn't respond with "Yeah... But I mean... c'mon man!!".

While I'm not completely well versed with endurance formulas and the like, as a general rule of thumb, the higher the damage, the higher amount of endurance spent to compensate (among a myriad of other things, I imagine). However, as @Bopper has mentioned, minor amounts of damage tacked on to a status-effect inducing power generally don't count towards that.

 

That being said, I do think that with these proposed additions to what Ice Control is able to slot may have the potential to do plenty more than just the minor additions of damage to Shiver and Flash Freeze. @Coyote has mentioned that allowing Shiver to slot for Hold enhancements means it opens the power up to a lot of damage procs for instance. Even Ice Slick might be able to get in on the fun as a result.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Blackfeather]

5 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Perhaps the question(s) needs to be asked another way:

 

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use?

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use solo?

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use on a team?

 

-- Does the set work hard, and effectively but feel like an unsung hero (like Trick Arrow)?  Does it fulfil the player's fantasy?

Hey there, thanks for elaborating! I generally try to avoid discussions over "fun", due to how subjective that can be: if you want an example on this, just look at Knockback. 😛

 

But I can speak for the effectiveness of Ice Control as a whole, which I've detailed in the original post - it excels in long, drawn out fights due to possessing -Recharge/-Movement as a secondary effect. Its main disadvantage comes from not being able to take initial strikes as well as other Control powersets. This is where the change to Shiver comes in, helping to address this, and provide a decent opening power to use on mobs.

 

Similarly, powers that inflict Sleep on groups of enemies are generally ignored on teams, though they do have their utility. This proposal aims to help rectify Flash Freeze somewhat by providing it with an additional effect: enemies need to break out of the ice that traps them, wasting an attack or two before re-engaging, even if they prematurely wake up. Along with this, it even deals some extra damage if this occurs.

 

Another general point is the speed at which Ice Control clears enemies compared to other Control powersets - the proposal also attempts to address this by tacking on some minor damage here and there, along with providing more options for Ice Control to slot procs.

 

Hope this answers your queries to your satisfaction!

[Tath99]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Indeed, fun is subjective.  However as the original poster and the instigator of the criticism you are within your rights to describe your own experience.  I think the thread would be better for it.

 

My own thoughts:

 

-- Ice Control is low damage.  Myself and a friend have tried it and been dissuaded from playing it further as a result.  As a set it creates a bad early impression.

-- Ice Control is a soft control set.  As you level you gain access to power after power that fails to counter the return alpha strike, as your rightly point out.

-- Ice Control is a soft control set.  Personally, this is against my own "power fantasy" of what ice should be.  In my mind's eye Wind Control is soft; Ice is hard and unyielding.  The power set fails to transition through power tiers, changing from soft effects to hard effects.  i.e.  It might have been better designed as being a rare set which contains soft AND hard elements.

 

A friend of mine was told and repeats often:  "if you want to play an Ice Controller, roll an Ice Blaster".  The advice he was given, sadly, rings true.  I have played Ice Blast to high level.  It contains great single target damage and has great controls.  If this is true for an Ice Blaster then logic dictates, conversely, that Ice Control should have some degree of being able to focus its cold intensity onto a single target.

 

Gravity had an Impact effect added to Propel to shore up its deficiency.  Perhaps Ice Control needs something similar?

 

"The Ice Sorceress concentrated her will and effort.  Her enchantment grew stronger: the enemy Freakshow boss began to shimmer and glisten with hoarfrost, as the temperature of his steel shell plummeted towards absolute zero."

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Tath99

[Alchemystic]

6 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Hey there, thanks for your response! I actually toned down my original implementation of Flash Freeze, which would have revamped the Sleep to be resistant to some level of damage. Instead, I looked at currently existing things inside the game to change this power up:

• Pets being summoned in the presence of enemies exist. E.g. Plant Control's Carrion Creepers
• Pets with a limited lifespan also exist. E.g. Plant Control's Carrion Creepers
• There are also enemies that deal damage upon being destroyed. E.g. the Sky Raiders' Force Field Generator
• Pets with aura powers also exist. E.g. Ice Control's Jack Frost

In other words, all the properties of the proposed Flash Freeze currently exist, to my knowledge - though considering @Tyrannical's thoughts on powerset recycling, I think I might defer to them on what's feasible or not (or if you know any others more versed in powers development, feel free to give them a shout!). You can read more on a potential implementation here:

 

 

All of those examples are feasible, as most things that work for NPCs tend to function the same for players (excluding most task force/trial specific mechanics).

That being said, the less intensive a power is the better, reducing the amount of functions it needs to work is your best shot at making a power viable.

[Tater Todd]

I had this well written reply to the thread and I accidentally deleted it...:FACEPALM:.  So I'm just going to post something short and sweet.

Shiver: The hold in your version should be enhanceable.  6 seconds may seem like too much but it's nothing when up against +4 Purple Con Lts and Bosses. 

Ice Slick: I approve of your version 100%.  I also wouldn't mind a little bit of -DMG too

Flash Freeze:  I would prefer if the pets dealt Stun instead of a Hold or Sleep but maybe the hold would add much needed damage to the set.  If the pets do have holds the caster should be able to slot hold enhancements as long as the power ignores it's hold duration getting strengthened by 100%.  I also approve of the Blaster Mag 2 stacking with Mag 1 mention too.

Glacier: Great changes but I think the power needs more.  It needs the Hail or Bullets Treatment; Glacier should give you +9.75% (Ranged/AOE/Melee) Defense and 19.25% S/L/C Resistance.  I agree with Coyote; I skip most AOE Holds unless they are Volcanic Gasses or Shadow Field.  They just aren't worth taking.

Again, sorry for how crude this post was but I was simply crushed 🧊 after I idiotically deleted my nice typed up initial reply to your post OP.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Tater Todd

[Marbing]

22 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

In other words, all the properties of the proposed Flash Freeze currently exist, to my knowledge - though considering @Tyrannical's thoughts on powerset recycling, I think I might defer to them on what's feasible or not (or if you know any others more versed in powers development, feel free to give them a shout!). You can read more on a potential implementation here:

Absolutely! If it can be done I am a fan, just more hoping it could be. 🙂

22 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Out of curiosity, why aren't you a fan of it? The change to Shiver is primarily based off of Poison's Neurotoxic Breath (which itself is basically Shiver 2.0), which has a low-ish chance to do a weak Hold (25%, Mag 2) - I figured that upping the chance and strength (50%, Mag 3 - considering adjusting the magnitude of that though) would make sense, especially considering it's in a Control powerset's arsenal.

I would say I am on the fence about it because I don't want to swing the pendulum too far and make the set over perform. I think it's weaknesses with alpha were likely intended, given how it shines as the fight rolls on. I do agree that it is too potent a weakness and it needs to be addressed but with this change plus the changes you suggest to flash freeze it may be too effective. Hence why I suggested maybe a -dmg in shiver so that it deadens the blow across the entire spawn who will already be struggling to get out of the ice cubes they are stuck in. They will waste thier alpha to get out of flash freeze and then (especially the minions) do less damage on thier next volley. That is, if arctic air hasn't confused them by then. So, again, on the fence about a 50% mag 3 hold. May be too potent. But still open to the idea. 🙂

 

 

As for any dmg added to the set, you can place it in shiver or it can be an added bonus combo affect like gravity has. That would work too.

[Blackfeather]

20 minutes ago, Tath99 said:

Thanks for the reply.

 

Indeed, fun is subjective.  However as the original poster and the instigator of the criticism you are within your rights to describe your own experience.  I think the thread would be better for it.

 

My own thoughts:

-- Ice Control is low damage.  Myself and a friend have tried it and been dissuaded from playing it further as a result.  As a set it creates a bad early impression.

-- Ice Control is a soft control set.  As you level you gain access to power after power that fails to counter the return alpha strike, as your rightly point out.

-- Ice Control is a soft control set.  Personally, this is against my own "power fantasy" of what ice should be.  In my mind's eye Wind Control is soft; Ice is hard and unyielding.  The power set fails to transition through power tiers, changing from soft effects to hard effects.  i.e.  It might have been better designed as being a rare set which contains soft AND hard elements.

Oh, there's no need to worry about that! I've expressed my experiences with Ice Control a few times in this thread already. However, for a formal proposal for improving Ice Control, I'll focus on the less subjective components of the powerset, which is reflected in my original post: I detail similar things that you've mentioned yourself - the Ice Control doesn't really have many options to deal additional damage, and that while it excels in handling longer, drawn out fights, it doesn't really have an early way of handling initial enemy attacks.

 

I think I understand what you mean by the subjective/feel aspect with your last point though: that it isn't a Control powerset that'd appeal to your own personal interpretation of how it should feel to play. Personally, I quite like what Ice Control brings to the table. With Arctic Air up, you're basically a walking field of lockdown, slowing/confusing enemies to a crawl, supplemented with tripping them up using Ice Slick. I see that as a fitting playstyle for Ice Control.

 

But that's kind of what I mean by trying to keep the whole subjective part out of this proposal - it just ends up going in circles about preferences and the like, instead of looking at actual issues with the powerset, namely the points that were brought up in the original post.

16 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Gravity had an Impact effect added to Propel to shore up its deficiency.  Perhaps Ice Control needs something similar?

I'm not so sure - Gravity Control is quite different from the other Control powersets. It starts off with a heavy single target damage focus with Lift and Propel, using knockbacks and knockups as their own 'soft control' to supplement the rest of their arsenal. They also sacrifice some early level control for the damage that they deal, something that Ice Control doesn't really lack outside of their immediate lockdown potential (though that's definitely a glaring issue).

 

I imagine some of the proposed changes: adding in additional sources of damage via Shiver/alterations to Flash Freeze, and some further places to slot in damage procs would be more than enough. I primarily refer to Darkness Control as a nice example of how to slip in further damage into a fairly control heavy powerset with a decent secondary effect: each power deals fairly minor amounts of damage, but they add up together.

[WindDemon21]

Ice Control fixes:

 

1. For all ST immobilizes, make the dot all go within 2 seconds, with bumped up damage and recharge.

 

2. Flash Freeze: Personally I'd rather the damage just be removed completely, but either way it needs it's animation time reduced. The havoc punch/bone smasher animation would be perfect for it. Have it include some -speed/-rech, and it's rech should be 45s not 90.

 

3. Shiver: I love this power, but it's absurd how it only lasts 18s with a 30s rech, where even the blaster version lasts 18s but is on a 12s recharge. I would imagine that these numbers were likely reversed on inception and just nobody ever bothered to look at it, as most people i see usually skip it anyway. I would picture more something like a 15s rech, and 45 second duration.

 

4. Ice Slick: For starters, it's insanely dumb, that this, and ice patch, can not be enhanced for slow. This needs to be added and allow for slow sets. Additionally, as a primarily cornerstone power for ice control, I feel it's recharge should be bumped down to 60 seconds.

 

5. Glacier: I love this power, but like all controller aoe holds, esp since the blaster nuke changes, should have their recharged reduced to at least 2 minutes instead of 4.

 

6. Arctic Air: A terrific power, until detoggled. Like all interactive toggles, they should only suppress when mezzed, not toggled off. This coding already exists on things like blaster sustain toggles.

 

7. Jack Frost: probably my favorite pet, but would be good to have frozen aura mag 3 or frost for more damage. I actually dislike the icicles idea, cause it wakes them up from from flash freeze.

[Solarverse]

18 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

I had this well written reply to the thread and I accidentally deleted it...:FACEPALM:.

I roid rage when that happens to me. I usually end up having to walk away from my PC and go smoke a cigarette after something like that, lol. I feel your pain.

[WindDemon21]

35 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I roid rage when that happens to me. I usually end up having to walk away from my PC and go smoke a cigarette after something like that, lol. I feel your pain.

I'm terrified it will happen so I copy my response before I hit the submit button lol.

[Solarverse]

21 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'm terrified it will happen so I copy my response before I hit the submit button lol.

I have also made this a common practice. But then there are those times when I fat finger my keyboard and my page sudden auto changes to my home page, or refreshes or just does something crazy...and hitting the back button in my browser does not pull up all that information I had typed, lol. What's even funnier, is that after I roid rage, jump up from my chair while cussing like a sailor at my PC, my wife is all freaked out and like, "What??? You were just fine a second ago, who pissed you off on those forums?" I'm like, "Nobody...just let me walk this off and I'll tell you later."

Edited November 17, 2020 by Solarverse

[Blackfeather]

18 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

All of those examples are feasible, as most things that work for NPCs tend to function the same for players (excluding most task force/trial specific mechanics).

That being said, the less intensive a power is the better, reducing the amount of functions it needs to work is your best shot at making a power viable.

Oh, that's good to hear! Thank you for chiming in - it's hopefully comparable to Carrion Creepers in complexity. The biggest change comes in after the original effect of Flash Freeze, summoning those ice formations, with their relevant powers:

• A single target Immobilise/Taunt aura (affects target, to stick them 'inside' the formation)
• A -Movement/-Recharge aura (affects area)
• Single target damage to trapped enemy if prematurely destroyed
  • Maybe just AoE damage with an extremely small radius if former isn't possible?
• Self destruct if not prematurely destroyed (without damage)

If it could be simplified further, that'd definitely be pretty neat.

[Vanden]

18 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

• Single target damage to trapped enemy if prematurely destroyed
  • Maybe just AoE damage with an extremely small radius if former isn't possible?

It should be possible, the Oil Slick pet you can attack only spawns the fire patch if something defeats it, not if it despawns on its own.

[Blackfeather]

21 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It should be possible, the Oil Slick pet you can attack only spawns the fire patch if something defeats it, not if it despawns on its own.

Oh, perfect! Though is it possible to target said damage to just the enemy previously trapped in that ice formation, out of curiosity?

 

EDIT: though in retrospect maybe a small AoE would make sense anyhow - main aim here is to not potentially disturb other still-Slept enemies.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Blackfeather]

20 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

I had this well written reply to the thread and I accidentally deleted it...:FACEPALM:.  So I'm just going to post something short and sweet.

Oh no! I totally understand, I actually write up these longer posts on an external editor to avoid that happening from the start (I started doing that after learning the lesson the hard way). I'll address your points in turn.

20 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

Shiver: The hold in your version should be enhanceable.  6 seconds may seem like too much but it's nothing when up against +4 Purple Con Lts and Bosses.

Yup, per the original post, it already is! It ought to be able to be slotted with Hold and Targeted AoE enhancements...also has the nice bonus of being able to slot a lot of potential procs.

20 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

Flash Freeze:  I would prefer if the pets dealt Stun instead of a Hold or Sleep but maybe the hold would add much needed damage to the set.  If the pets do have holds the caster should be able to slot hold enhancements as long as the power ignores it's hold duration getting strengthened by 100%.  I also approve of the Blaster Mag 2 stacking with Mag 1 mention too.

Ah, let me try and elaborate - basically, Flash Freeze's original function stays in place: it still remains an AoE Sleep that does some minor damage. It's everything immediately afterwards where things start to change. Here's a basic rundown.

• A fragile ice formation pet is summoned around each hit enemy
• This pet does a few things:
  • Immobilise and taunt the trapped enemy (so they'll attack it to 'free' themselves if they wake up)
  • Slow things in an area around them
  • Deal damage to the trapped enemy if it's prematurely destroyed
  • Destroy itself after a period of time

Hope this clears things up a little! Credit goes to @Darkneblade for suggesting that last point, it was a neat touch - the main aim of this change was to make Ice Control's Sleep a little more durable, occupying enemies for some time even if they're damaged soon after the original sleep. It even provides a means of hindering enemies with higher magnitude protection levels, if only for a little while.

21 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

Glacier: Great changes but I think the power needs more.  It needs the Hail or Bullets Treatment; Glacier should give you +9.75% (Ranged/AOE/Melee) Defense and 19.25% S/L/C Resistance.  I agree with Coyote; I skip most AOE Holds unless they are Volcanic Gasses or Shadow Field.  They just aren't worth taking.

I think the AoE Holds in general are probably better addressed as a whole, rather than in a specific buff to the powerset, given that it's one of the overarching similarities between all of the powersets - it's why I kept its changes fairly minimal. @SeraphimKensai had a nice thread about that a while back.

 

At the moment, I definitely view them more as an emergency button for when things get too overwhelming, which I'm okay-ish with so long as the Control powerset has other tools at their disposal. Whether or not that's the intent behind them, I'm not sure.

[Blackfeather]

13 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

Absolutely! If it can be done I am a fan, just more hoping it could be. 🙂

It definitely seems like it's possible, by the looks of it - some of these recent posts have talked about the proposal, you might find them interesting.

13 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I would say I am on the fence about it because I don't want to swing the pendulum too far and make the set over perform. I think it's weaknesses with alpha were likely intended, given how it shines as the fight rolls on. I do agree that it is too potent a weakness and it needs to be addressed but with this change plus the changes you suggest to flash freeze it may be too effective. Hence why I suggested maybe a -dmg in shiver so that it deadens the blow across the entire spawn who will already be struggling to get out of the ice cubes they are stuck in. They will waste thier alpha to get out of flash freeze and then (especially the minions) do less damage on thier next volley. That is, if arctic air hasn't confused them by then. So, again, on the fence about a 50% mag 3 hold. May be too potent. But still open to the idea. 🙂

 

As for any dmg added to the set, you can place it in shiver or it can be an added bonus combo affect like gravity has. That would work too.

Hopefully I can reassure you a little - the intention with this proposal here is absolutely to keep Ice Control's -Recharge/-Movement at the forefront. It makes for a fairly unique way of locking down the battlefield, and is indeed very effective in prolonged fights.

 

However, Ice Control isn't the only control powerset that's similar in this regard: again, Darkness Control's a nice reference. Its -ToHit is quite comparable of a secondary effect, reducing the likelihood of attacks outright hitting, providing prolonged survivability in addition to plenty of ways of locking down the battlefield from the start via Fearsome Stare and Heart of Darkness. Needless to say, Shiver with a chance to Hold along with Flash Freeze don't come close to touching this level of immediate lockdown.

 

That being said, @Coyote did propose something like lowering the magnitude of Shiver to 2 - that would stop minions, and occasionally lieutenants via Overpower on a Controller. It might even give some incentive for Dominators to take the pick via Domination. I believe @oedipus_tex has talked about Ice Control being generally better on Controllers - this might help balance things out a little, would be interested in your thoughts!

 

Something to also keep in mind is that Flash Freeze comes in relatively late in Ice Control (18), at levels where other powersets already have tools to immediately lock things down to some degree - Fire Control gets Flashfire (12), Earth Control gets Stalagmites (12), and so on. It's also an AoE Sleep: plenty of utility, but definitely less useful in larger groups where damage can easily break them.

 

The changes made to Flash Freeze were less in the vein of "stopping alphas" (because it already does that), but "dealing damage and improving utility" - hence why they now summon those ice formations around enemies, forcing them to waste a few attacks on them to break free: it allows for some level of lockdown even if they end up immediately waking up. Combined with the fact that they now deal additional damage if they're prematurely destroyed, it helps to bolster Ice Control's damage capabilities to some degree.

 

I think combined with adding minor damage to Shiver (along with the fact that there's more places to slot in procs), damage shouldn't be too much of an issue - plus, Gravity Control's fairly unique, focusing on single target damage while forgoing some hard control in the process. I don't think it's too necessary for Ice.

[Coyote]

I have to say, that I like the proposed changes to Flash Freeze, mostly in the fact that they're pretty complex and turn it into an interesting power that is a draw to the set.

Consider, otherwise, how rarely Sleep powers are taken. IMO, the details of how the proposed ice formations work, and exactly what controls/debuffs they provide, are necessary in the end to finish the concept, but in the beginning, the first two thoughs should be:

1) make the power interesting

2) make the power worth taking. Right now, Sleeps generally aren't except for Static Field, and that's because it's pulsing. And it's worse on a set that uses a knockdown patch so it pretty much breaks one of its controls with another.

[Marbing]

8 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Hopefully I can reassure you a little - the intention with this proposal here is absolutely to keep Ice Control's -Recharge/-Movement at the forefront. It makes for a fairly unique way of locking down the battlefield, and is indeed very effective in prolonged fights.

 

However, Ice Control isn't the only control powerset that's similar in this regard: again, Darkness Control's a nice reference. Its -ToHit is quite comparable of a secondary effect, reducing the likelihood of attacks outright hitting, providing prolonged survivability in addition to plenty of ways of locking down the battlefield from the start via Fearsome Stare and Heart of Darkness. Needless to say, Shiver with a chance to Hold along with Flash Freeze don't come close to touching this level of immediate lockdown.

 

That being said, @Coyote did propose something like lowering the magnitude of Shiver to 2 - that would stop minions, and occasionally lieutenants via Overpower on a Controller. It might even give some incentive for Dominators to take the pick via Domination. I believe @oedipus_tex has talked about Ice Control being generally better on Controllers - this might help balance things out a little, would be interested in your thoughts!

 

Something to also keep in mind is that Flash Freeze comes in relatively late in Ice Control (18), at levels where other powersets already have tools to immediately lock things down to some degree - Fire Control gets Flashfire (12), Earth Control gets Stalagmites (12), and so on. It's also an AoE Sleep: plenty of utility, but definitely less useful in larger groups where damage can easily break them.

 

The changes made to Flash Freeze were less in the vein of "stopping alphas" (because it already does that), but "dealing damage and improving utility" - hence why they now summon those ice formations around enemies, forcing them to waste a few attacks on them to break free: it allows for some level of lockdown even if they end up immediately waking up. Combined with the fact that they now deal additional damage if they're prematurely destroyed, it helps to bolster Ice Control's damage capabilities to some degree.

 

I think combined with adding minor damage to Shiver (along with the fact that there's more places to slot in procs), damage shouldn't be too much of an issue - plus, Gravity Control's fairly unique, focusing on single target damage while forgoing some hard control in the process. I don't think it's too necessary for Ice.

All solid points, I hope you don't take my skepticism as an attack. You have obviously thought this out very well. I think lowering to Mag 2 is a good idea. I will admit I didn't think about the benefit to dominators, I like this idea a lot more now that you mentioned that. It gives Ice dominators a reason to choose the power and another way to build domination. 

The more I think about this I realize one of the reasons ice has issues with alpha is the fact that flash freeze does damage first then sleeps. That first tick of damage alerts the enemies and allows them to get in an attack before the sleep takes hold. (I could be mistaken but I believe that is how it works). If you remove that upfront damage all together you'd negate any immediate retaliatory alpha strikes. Then those ice formations do damage once they are destroyed (as you said) so you aren't losing any damage just backloading it. You could wake them up yourself with Shiver (assuming you added a minor cold damage component to it) thus creating a decent little combo.

 

I really like the change to flash freeze you propose, overall it would make the set infinitely more interesting even if you changed nothing else. Sleep attacks are so vanilla as it is. I can only think of one that is useful and unique (Static Field) and this would add another useful/unique sleep power to the game and draw more people to consider Ice Control. 

 

[WindDemon21]

I would be down for the block effect added to flash freeze replacing the initial damage and making a taunting destroy object. That would render it's 90s rech worth it. Even giving them a short duration DOT aura pseudo pet like oil slick only "icicles caltrops" would be pretty sweet too that creates a location slow/dot/small -rech, would be so awesome and unique.

 

Think somewhere between creepers, and oil slick, and caltrops.

 

Check out my other changes as well, they would put ice control in a relly good spot.

Edited November 17, 2020 by WindDemon21

[Blackfeather]

7 hours ago, Coyote said:

I have to say, that I like the proposed changes to Flash Freeze, mostly in the fact that they're pretty complex and turn it into an interesting power that is a draw to the set.

Consider, otherwise, how rarely Sleep powers are taken. IMO, the details of how the proposed ice formations work, and exactly what controls/debuffs they provide, are necessary in the end to finish the concept, but in the beginning, the first two thoughs should be:

1) make the power interesting

2) make the power worth taking. Right now, Sleeps generally aren't except for Static Field, and that's because it's pulsing. And it's worse on a set that uses a knockdown patch so it pretty much breaks one of its controls with another.

Glad you like the concept of it! It was definitely a bit complicated to explain, but yeah, I figure that most Sleeps ought to have something attached to them rather than just the status effect, usually dependant on the kind of power it originates from.

 

For instance, I do think it'd make sense for Mind Control's Mesmerize and Mass Hypnosis to make enemies to sleep on the floor, forcing them to stand up after waking up - similarly occupies them for a little while, even if they end up waking soon afterwards.

 

There's a few things that are a little odd with damaging Sleep powers that ought to be resolved though: their interaction with damaging Interface procs and the fact that they use some odd timing behind the scenes to end up working, which can cause enemies to attack before the status effects come into play. Not sure if the HC team would be interested in looking into that though, given that those kinds of powers are few and far between (Mesmerize and Flash Freeze are the first two that come to mind).

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Blackfeather said:

Glad you like the concept of it! It was definitely a bit complicated to explain, but yeah, I figure that most Sleeps ought to have something attached to them rather than just the status effect, usually dependant on the kind of power it originates from.

 

For instance, I do think it'd make sense for Mind Control's Mesmerize and Mass Hypnosis to make enemies to sleep on the floor, forcing them to stand up after waking up - similarly occupies them for a little while, even if they end up waking soon afterwards.

 

There's a few things that are a little odd with damaging Sleep powers that ought to be resolved though: their interaction with damaging Interface procs and the fact that they use some odd timing behind the scenes to end up working, which can cause enemies to attack before the status effects come into play. Not sure if the HC team would be interested in looking into that though, given that those kinds of powers are few and far between (Mesmerize and Flash Freeze are the first two that come to mind).

I'll have to test again but I don't think Mesmerize has that problem. Flash Freeze didn't always either, but it has been an issue as far as I can tell since homecoming for whatever reason. WHATEVER changes come to Flash Freeze, that small damage at the start of it has to go.

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'll have to test again but I don't think Mesmerize has that problem. Flash Freeze didn't always either, but it has been an issue as far as I can tell since homecoming for whatever reason. WHATEVER changes come to Flash Freeze, that small damage at the start of it has to go.

No, Mesmerize definitely has that problem too - the sleep is applied 1/4th of a second after the damage hits, and the AI usually isn't allowed to queue up an attack within that window, but sometimes it does.

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

All solid points, I hope you don't take my skepticism as an attack. You have obviously thought this out very well. I think lowering to Mag 2 is a good idea. I will admit I didn't think about the benefit to dominators, I like this idea a lot more now that you mentioned that. It gives Ice dominators a reason to choose the power and another way to build domination.

Not at all! I solicit feedback on proposals knowing that it won't always be agreed upon, and that's how they can be refined - of course, if I'm fairly certain about some things, I'll give my reasoning as to why. 🙂

 

I'll adjust the original post accordingly to lower that magnitude: hearing similar feedback from a few people sounds like it'd be a good move.

8 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

The more I think about this I realize one of the reasons ice has issues with alpha is the fact that flash freeze does damage first then sleeps. That first tick of damage alerts the enemies and allows them to get in an attack before the sleep takes hold. (I could be mistaken but I believe that is how it works). If you remove that upfront damage all together you'd negate any immediate retaliatory alpha strikes. Then those ice formations do damage once they are destroyed (as you said) so you aren't losing any damage just backloading it. You could wake them up yourself with Shiver (assuming you added a minor cold damage component to it) thus creating a decent little combo.

That's right - to my knowledge, all Sleeps that deal damage work this way: they deal damage first, and immediately afterwards apply the status effect to prevent it from breaking. Compare this to Holds, which apply the status effect first, then the damage afterwards.

 

This small window provides an opportunity for enemies to retaliate, hence the whole 'alpha' situation you're describing. It also leads to some complications with Incarnate Interface DoT procs, which end up waking enemies afterwards - @Zeraphia brought this issue up in this thread.

 

I'd argue that this isn't working as intended, and ought to be properly fixed rather than get rid of the damage entirely in such powers: Mind Control's Mesmerize for instance is a staple attack that deals a respectable amount of damage with it. Similarly, the damage in Flash Freeze can contribute to adding some damage to Ice Control, especially if you do something like fill it with procs - that's another reason why I kept its effect there: I'm sure there's builds out there that use the power in this way at the moment.

 

Having Sleeps be undisturbed by any damage immediately following it would probably do the trick, though of course that's easier to say than to implement, I'm sure.

 

One thing to clarify about the changes to Flash Freeze: the additional damage proposed by @Darkneblade only occurs if the trapped enemy destroys the ice formation, not if it melts by itself. So even if they wake up, it's not guaranteed to go off. Think of it more as a bonus than something meant to go along with the initial damage.

9 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I really like the change to flash freeze you propose, overall it would make the set infinitely more interesting even if you changed nothing else. Sleep attacks are so vanilla as it is. I can only think of one that is useful and unique (Static Field) and this would add another useful/unique sleep power to the game and draw more people to consider Ice Control.

Thanks! Though I'll admit I'd like to improve most Sleep powers in the game (except for the powers that add it in as a bonus rather than as a primary effect). While they are indeed quite versatile, as @Greycat can absolutely attest to, they could do with some additional help, usually depending on the kind of power they originate from.

 

For instance, Earth Control's Salt Crystals would be a great place to have a similar-ish effect to the one I'm proposing here with Flash Freeze (except for the debuff of course). I've also mentioned Mind Control's Mesmerize/Mass Hypnosis could do with an additional effect before - having enemies sleep on the floor might be interesting, meaning that whenever they wake up, they spend some extra time having to stand up.

 

Basically: thematic additions to the original status effect that occupy the enemy a little while, even if they prematurely wake up.

[oedipus_tex]

There are some good ideas here. You've made a persuasive argument that Ice Control could use some updates.

 

Here are a few thoughts.

 

 

The Blaster version of Shiver was recently buffed.

The power now has a 60 second duration, up from 18 seconds. At the very minimum Ice Control's Shiver should match that. I'm on the fence on whether or not this power should become a true mezz. There's an argument for and against it.

 

 

There is such a thing as Unresistable -Recharge.

The Kinetics power Siphon Speed deals -20% Recharge that is unresistable. This means AVs eat the full debuff. I think giving Ice Control a similar amount of -Recharge would make its abilities worthwhile.

 

 

Arctic Air should Dominate somehow.

Arctic Air currently is double-nerfed. It has both the shorter mezz duration Dominators get outside of Domination, and lacks the longer duration Dominators should get in Domination mode. Note that Domination does not have to clone the 30% Chance for Mag 3 if developers think that is overpowered. There are some powers that only Dominate at Mag 1 or that adjust the mezz chances in other ways.

 

Personally I think the best scheme for this power is a switch mechanic based on the player's Domination state.

• Outside Domination: Use current "normal" mezz rules.
• Inside Domination: Suppress "normal" mezz rules. Replace with 30% chance for Mag 6 Confuse, 4 second duration. That would make the power confuse bosses but still leave holes in coverage.

 

 

It's possible to make a Hold or other mezz that breaks when the enemy takes damage.

This was proven with the new Blaster power Choking Cloud. I could see this put to creative use in a few powers. The power developer can control the chances of the mezz breaking on damage. In Choking Cloud its 50% but that can be adjusted per power or effect. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[WindDemon21]

36 minutes ago, Vanden said:

No, Mesmerize definitely has that problem too - the sleep is applied 1/4th of a second after the damage hits, and the AI usually isn't allowed to queue up an attack within that window, but sometimes it does.

Yeah it may I wasn't sure, I just know since it's a damage power first primarily, and mag 4s bosses a good while after or at least detoggles stuff, that it's much less of an issue vs. Flash Freeze. I do know  for sure that they don't retaliate often as well, just couldn't guarantee they 100% don't.