New Energy Melee - Thoughts?

[Lazarillo]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

Anyone else getting spotty animations?

 

Whirling hands just doesn't animate sometimes. Maybe some other powers on the set have similar issues.

Nope, on my Brute, at least, I've seen zero of that with EM, and I'm usually pretty sensitive to that sort of thing (it's why I won't play /Plant blasters, for example).

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

Anyone else getting spotty animations?

 

Whirling hands just doesn't animate sometimes. Maybe some other powers on the set have similar issues.

Yes. On my Invuln/EM Tank.

 

I had the problem with my character not going into battle stance and an attack or two not animating before, but it happened very infrequently. Maybe once every other mission at most.

 

Since the Issue 27 update it happens very frequently. Maybe every 2nd or 3rd fight.

 

I haven't noticed it happening at all on other characters, but that may just be because I haven't played my other characters much since the update. 🙂

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Answer me this; does your character sometimes randomly just refuse to go in to battle stance?

hmmm, I haven't noticed that but will pay closer attention. I did however use the ninja run stance.. maybe that was having an impact.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 11/28/2020 at 10:46 PM, Solarverse said:

Back to the OP, I think the only real legitimate complaint comes from Dominators in how the changes interfere with a mechanic that is specific to them. I think that should be looked in to and corrected if at all possible.

No class owns a mechanic. Do blasters own ranged damage? No.

That being said, I like the new EM, I mained one on live until they butchered it.

[ForeverLaxx]

11 hours ago, Hew said:

NOTHING will EVER play or feel like "Old EM"

It could have, had ET been put on fast animation all the time with a 15 second cooldown and decoupled from Total Focus. Not being able to turn and smite a LT whenever I want with a single attack unless I first throw a TF into the fight annoys the hell outta me.

 

But I'm well aware that I wasn't one of the Chosen so it didn't matter.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

hmmm, I haven't noticed that but will pay closer attention. I did however use the ninja run stance.. maybe that was having an impact.

very possible.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

No class owns a mechanic. Do blasters own ranged damage? No.

That being said, I like the new EM, I mained one on live until they butchered it.

So wait, when a Dominator stuns a target, they used to get bonus damage when using Whirling Hands. That used to be a mechanic that was specific to them and only them. The changes to EM did away with that and replaced it was a instant recharge mechanic instead. A Dom's main complain is that their recharge is so stupid high, they do not need an auto recharge ability because by the time they use Total Focus, Whirling Hands would have already been recharged anyway. So the new changes do not help Doms.

So unless my definition of mechanics is completely wrong, I believe that qualifies?

[siolfir]

19 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

So wait, when a Dominator stuns a target, they used to get bonus damage when using Whirling Hands. That used to be a mechanic that was specific to them and only them. The changes to EM did away with that and replaced it was a instant recharge mechanic instead. A Dom's main complain is that their recharge is so stupid high, they do not need an auto recharge ability because by the time they use Total Focus, Whirling Hands would have already been recharged anyway. So the new changes do not help Doms.

So unless my definition of mechanics is completely wrong, I believe that qualifies?

It's off-topic since Dominators get Energy Assault, not Energy Melee, though I happen to agree with you - but it wasn't intended to help Doms, it was intended as a nerf to getting double damage on Whirling Hands with Energy Focus active by forcing them to use double the animation time to get the same damage. I think reducing the extra damage would've been a better (and more popular) way of dealing with it, but that idea was certainly brought up in the feedback thread and didn't go anywhere.

 

I also find the statement that "no class owns a mechanic" laughable in a variety of ways (isn't that what inherents are, a class(AT)-specific mechanic? plus, on a silly note, you would think that robot Masterminds are probably very good mechanics), and as such just took it as a troll response. But since the troll has already been fed I thought I'd add in how silly I thought that particular argument was.

[0th Power]

I like most of the changes, although it’s not the route I would have went.  My main complaint is using power crash in energy focus mode is worthless 95%+ of the time (hit checks on 5 or fewer targets). If energy focus just had energy transfer and barrage, I’d like it better. I have to avoid using powercrash so I don’t use corpse punch slow energy transfer. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by 0th Power

[Troo]

On 12/1/2020 at 5:12 PM, Troo said:

hmmm, I haven't noticed that but will pay closer attention. I did however use the ninja run stance.. maybe that was having an impact.

Removing ninja run = no missed animations.

 

Will need a bigger sample size to be sure.

[Direct Crit]

Honestly I've been enjoying it on my Scrapper. I'm comparing it against an StJ Stalker, my previous go-to for game-feel and fun, and I'm a bit torn. Faster ET is fantastic and they nailed the impact of ET, but being tied to TF does feel clunky. I still wish Build Up granted us a stack of Energy Focus as well.

As for actual performance, at the end of the day it's still melee in a game where ranged can be incredibly bursty and powerful. In end-game content it feels slow, its AoEs feel incredibly small, and the high damage is tied to a two-part mechanic that can't be leveraged immediately. It solos just fine, but any melee can do that when properly built and there's no outlier in its damage that's going to catapult it above and beyond. Overall I'd call the rework a great success.

[DougGraves]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:07 PM, Solarverse said:

A Dom's main complain is that their recharge is so stupid high, they do not need an auto recharge ability because by the time they use Total Focus, Whirling Hands would have already been recharged anyway. So the new changes do not help Doms.

 

Are you saying Doms get a massive recharge bonus?  Or that they slot for a massive recharge bonus?  One is an AT mechanic and a valid complaint.  The other is player slotting and not a valid complaint. 

[Lazarillo]

23 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

Are you saying Doms get a massive recharge bonus?  Or that they slot for a massive recharge bonus?  One is an AT mechanic and a valid complaint.  The other is player slotting and not a valid complaint. 

It could probably be seen as a little of both.  Because of the ridiculous difference between Perma-Dom and not Perma-Dom, any Dominator build that's not slotted for a massive recharge bonus will always be inherently inferior to any Dominator build that is.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

 

Are you saying Doms get a massive recharge bonus?  Or that they slot for a massive recharge bonus?  One is an AT mechanic and a valid complaint.  The other is player slotting and not a valid complaint. 

Neither was my primary point. This was.

when a Dominator stuns a target, they used to get bonus damage when using Whirling Hands.

 

What you quoted was the secondary point. Almost every Dom slots for recharge which makes Whirling Hands recharge in like 3 seconds flat. So giving them a mechanic that grant Whirling Hands an auto recharge is completely pointless all together. I'm sure Dom players would have rather been left out of that EM buff all together since what they already had worked well for them. I'm not 100% certain, but judging from descriptions, Doms also lost that extra damage they would get to stunned targets as their exclusive mechanics that was specific to Doms...and if this is true, the changes to Energy Assault for Doms was more of a nerf than it was a buff.

[America's Angel]

Been testing out EM in 1v1 PVP. It seems really great. It does a lot of damage, but it hasn't taken the Scrapper top spot (that's still Dark Melee) or Brute top spot (that's still Super Strength). I'd put it right up there with Street Justice / Rad Melee. Given how bad so many melee sets are in PVP, it's nice to have another good one. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by America's Angel

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Been testing out EM in 1v1 PVP. It seems really great. It does a lot of damage, but it hasn't taken the Scrapper top spot (that's still Dark Melee) or Brute top spot (that's still Super Strength). I'd put it right up there with Street Justice / Rad Melee. Given how bad so many melee sets are in PVP, it's nice to have another good one. 

Claws is bad in PvP?

 

/I really have no clue. Always did fine before the snap.

[DougGraves]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

It could probably be seen as a little of both.  Because of the ridiculous difference between Perma-Dom and not Perma-Dom, any Dominator build that's not slotted for a massive recharge bonus will always be inherently inferior to any Dominator build that is.

 

So what you are saying is Perma-Dom is broken and should be eliminated to prevent massive disparity in character strengths.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Claws is bad in PvP?

 

/I really have no clue. Always did fine before the snap.

Anything that is strictly Lethal/Smashing is Bad. The only reason that SS gets a pass is because of Rage. At least that is according to my old knowledge of PvP...which is quite out dated.

[Solarverse]

Just now, DougGraves said:

 

So what you are saying is Perma-Dom is broken and should be eliminated to prevent massive disparity in character strengths.

Pretty sure that is not what they were saying.

[Troo]

23 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

So what you are saying is Perma-Dom is broken and should be eliminated to prevent massive disparity in character strengths.

Yes

..runs from pitchforks & torches yelling "it was a joooke!"

[Solarverse]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

Yes

..runs from pitchforks & torches yelling "it was a joooke!"

I raised my eyebrow at you thinking, "WTF, Troo? Did you lose your mind? Then I red the part in purple, lol.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Neither was my primary point. This was.

when a Dominator stuns a target, they used to get bonus damage when using Whirling Hands.

This isn't true. What is true (since Page 3 of Issue 26), Whirling Hands would do double damage if Energy Focus was active. Energy Focus had two ways of being granted:

1. Successfully hit with Total Focus when Energy Focus wasn't already active (100% chance to grant).
2. Successfully hit a stunned target with a different Energy Assault attack when Energy Focus wasn't already active (20% chance to grant). *Note, Whirling Hands does not have this effect, but the other Energy Assault attacks do

When Energy Focus was granted this way, you would be locked out of being granted another Energy Focus for the next 15s. This made Whirling Hands limited to double damage once every 15s, at best.

 

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

What you quoted was the secondary point. Almost every Dom slots for recharge which makes Whirling Hands recharge in like 3 seconds flat. So giving them a mechanic that grant Whirling Hands an auto recharge is completely pointless all together. I'm sure Dom players would have rather been left out of that EM buff all together since what they already had worked well for them. I'm not 100% certain, but judging from descriptions, Doms also lost that extra damage they would get to stunned targets as their exclusive mechanics that was specific to Doms...and if this is true, the changes to Energy Assault for Doms was more of a nerf than it was a buff.

 

Whirling Hands has a 20s recharge, so recharging in 3s would be impossible. At best, it could do it in 4s if you are at the 500% recharge cap. Looking at Perma-Dom, it is a 200s base recharge for 90s duration and 1.17s cast time. To get to perma dom, that would require 200s/(90s-1.17s) = 225.15% (+125.15% global recharge and 100% base). Assuming you fully slot Whirling Hands with 95% recharge, that would get you to 320.15% total recharge. 20s/3.2015 = 6.25s.

 

So what you would be getting with a dominator with exactly enough global recharge to reach perma-domination and 95% slotted recharge enhancement (100% pre-E.D.) in Whirling Hands is a 6.25s recharge time. Using Total Focus in between makes it roughly 3.5s gap before you can use Whirling Hands again.

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Bopper

[Solarverse]

21 minutes ago, Bopper said:

This isn't true. What is true (since Page 3 of Issue 26), Whirling Hands would do double damage if Energy Focus was active. Energy Focus had two ways of being granted:

1. Successfully hit with Total Focus when Energy Focus wasn't already active (100% chance to grant).
2. Successfully hit a stunned target with a different Energy Assault attack when Energy Focus wasn't already active (20% chance to grant). *Note, Whirling Hands does not have this effect, but the other Energy Assault attacks do

When Energy Focus was granted this way, you would be locked out of being granted another Energy Focus for the next 15s. This made Whirling Hands limited to double damage once every 15s, at best.

 

 

Whirling Hands has a 20s recharge, so recharging in 3s would be impossible. At best, it could do it in 4s if you are at the 500% recharge cap. Looking at Perma-Dom, it is a 200s base recharge for 90s duration and 1.17s cast time. To get to perma dom, that would require 200s/(90s-1.17s) = 225.15% (+125.15% global recharge and 100% base). Assuming you fully slot Whirling Hands with 95% recharge, that would get you to 320.15% total recharge. 20s/3.2015 = 6.25s.

 

So what you would be getting with a dominator with exactly enough global recharge to reach perma-domination and 95% slotted recharge enhancement (100% pre-E.D.) in Whirling Hands is a 6.25s recharge time. Using Total Focus in between makes it roughly 3.5s gap before you can use Whirling Hands again.

 

Which is not quite as bad as I thought...but IMO just backs up my point with facts instead of bad memory. Wait, is the recharge different for a Dom's Whirling Hands than it is for a Tanks? My Tank is nowhere near capped, he doesn't even have Hasten and my recharge is up every 5 seconds. So I am assuming (without checking Mids) that a Dom's version of Whirling Hands must be on a longer recharge?

Edited December 4, 2020 by Solarverse

[Bopper]

10 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Which is not quite as bad as I thought...but IMO just backs up my point with facts instead of bad memory. Wait, is the recharge different for a Dom's Whirling Hands than it is for a Tanks? My Tank is nowhere near capped, he doesn't even have Hasten and my recharge is up every 5 seconds. So I am assuming (without checking Mids) that a Dom's version of Whirling Hands must be on a longer recharge?

Correct, they are very different. 

 

Tank: 14s recharge, 1.1819 scale damage, 8 ft radius (becomes 12 ft thanks to inherent).

 

Dominator: 20s recharge, 1.1502 scale damage, 15 ft radius

[Troo]

Alrighty.. got a Shield/Energy Melee to 50 with a decent build and it is pretty effective.

 

I have seen quite a few Total Focus animations when teaming so there are definitely more EMers out there than were previously.

 

Some empirical notes for the tanker to follow: [rough (will edit)]

• It does a pretty good job switching between single target focus and AoE focus.
• Whirling Hands > Power Crash & repeat will grind away at large groups.
  • Trying to use Total Focus to boost Power Crush.. meh (get close, but then backup some.. meh)
• AoE still pales compared to the AoE teammates can put out.
• Energy Melee now feel fairly late blooming.
• Bone Smasher is the most used power in most runs.
• Stuns happen but are pretty random vs intentional.
• Total Focus seems to miss more than it should. Thank goodness the combo mechanic is still initiated.
• Using a slow power to initiate a combo mechanic is still lack luster.
  • Total Focus was likely intended originally to be used as a finisher on a stunned target that couldn't hit back. With little risk these days, it is fine.
• BuildUp > ET > TF > ET > BS > Char ended up being the realistic/non-optimized single target attack chain.
• Total Focus and Energy Transfer are available quite often.

Overall = It's a fun tank with some smashiness. There are few tactics involved.. but it is a tank. The combo mechanic works to give a fast Energy Transfer but otherwise seems superfluous.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Troo