Weekly Discussion 85: T1 Immobilises in Control Sets

[Black Zot]

Single target immobs do nothing to justify picking them.  Pinning AVs?  The AoE does that just fine.  Damage?  There are multiple pool powers that match it while doing all the damage upfront, making them objectively better in that regard.

 

I dunno what could be done to fix this.  Immobilize is just a very weak control effect, and a single-target version in a game that's all about AoE is downright pathetic.

[Coyote]

I always take the single-target Immobilizes on the Controllers, and wish the Illusion set had one. An attack is better than no attack, and when you only have two base attacks (Hold and Immob) for many set, skipping one is hard. However, the DoT is excessively long... half the duration would be much better.

 

AoE Immobs are also good on a set that has an AoE Stun as its main opener. They're also good on some characters, depending on their Endurance management, to spam for an Orb, to drain Endurance, to add -ToHit, etc, but not necessarily for all sets. It depends a lot on Endurance management. Frankly, they could be greatly improved, IMO, by making their radius be smaller, like 15', and dropping their Endurance effect... many times the large radius will prevent spread-out mobs from bunching up more, while you usually want to Immobilize them AFTER they're bunched up, which means that you don't really need such a large radius.

 

Increase the DoT speed for both ST and AoE (not that it matters much for the latter), and make the Radius and therefore End cost of the AoE smaller, and they would both improve.

[Dracomicon]

1) I never take the T1 immobilize when I have the choice. The immobilize can be replaced early levels with a temp power and as you build up recharge, the single hold becomes available enough and you can use the AoE immobilize with some end management solo in every encounter. On teams, you do more damage with your AoE as long as you wait a second for mobs to bunch up.

 

2) Add a -5% DEF and -10% RES to the main damage type of your powerset to the T1 Immobilize.

 

3) No under or over performers.

 

4) Spectral Wounds showing green heal numbers above their head. I always thought it should be a different color, like pink or blue to represent the target healing from the fake damage.

[DougGraves]

20 hours ago, Coyote said:

AoE Immobs are also good on a set that has an AoE Stun as its main opener.

 

Are they also good for fire with bonfire to turn the knockback into knockdown?

[Uun]

37 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

Are they also good for fire with bonfire to turn the knockback into knockdown?

You need a Sudden Acceleration KB>KD IO for that.

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

 

Are they also good for fire with bonfire to turn the knockback into knockdown?

 

Yes and no. You CAN use Fire Cages to convert Bonfire to a Knockdown power, but... it has problems:

1) you can't enhance the 10 second -Knockback effect, and Fire Cages has lower than average Accuracy, so there's a chance to miss a target. So anyone you miss is going to get tossed violently out of Bonfire, spreading out the group, unless you limit this by spamming Fire Cages. Which can work, but basically it works by forcing you to spam it, which may or may not be a problem.

2) you can't pre-trap an area with Bonfire and pull mobs into it, or have adds come in and start falling down. They'll get tossed back out as they come, and then they can get up and shoot. Granted, they can't come through Bonfire, but you want them to get into BF and stay there, falling down, so they're not spread out. And you can't pre-Immobilize them, or they'll be stuck outside of it and not falling.

 

So... it's doable, but makes its use far more limited. It's worh the one IO to remove those limits.

[TheZag]

I skip the single target immob.  The main reasons i see that people take it for are single target damage and for not irritating your team with the AoE immob.

 

For me there's just too many better choices through pool and epic powers to need it for single target damage and its too easy to not press my AoE immobilize or place that epic in its spot on the bar while on a team.  But i haven't had anyone complain about my controller controlling the enemies either, so there's that to consider.

[Mezmera]

On my doms that I have the option of a ST immobilize or the hold as my first power pick I always take the hold.  Control sets get better power choices later on so I'd rather have a real control in a hold to start.  It's kind of tough for doms too because the t1 blasts are obsolete real quick as well and you HAVE to take that.  Then there's mind doms who get either a breakable ST sleep or a knockback power where the draw is damage but dom's later attacks outshine this power as well.  My mind dom has the sleep and t1 blast both unslotted and mostly unused.

 

So in some cases on doms you're getting the option of two underwhelming powers.  I'm not too keen on buffing control sets but some tweaking may be in order, maybe reshuffle certain powers up and down.  

Edited January 20, 2021 by Mezmera

[Placta]

I'll take the single-target immob on a solo controller build; it sets up Containment and does decent damage. It's a very low-priority pick for team builds; I can maybe see using it along with the AoE to make dead sure Mary MacComber doesn't fly away.

 

Dominators don't get containment, have a whole secondary to deal damage with, and have ranged attacks to deal with the guy who thinks he can run away, so I can't see any reason to take the ST immob. I dropped the AoE immob on my one dominator who had it because I was never using it.

[DougGraves]

So the question is - if you get rid of the immobilizes for dominators what do you give them?

 

I could see a single target soft control - fear, sleep, stun.  Short duration.

 

I'd be tempted to give them debuffs instead.  Give them a weak debuff from the defender version of the powerset theme.

[ninja surprise]

On 1/17/2021 at 2:31 AM, Riverdusk said:

On a controller I almost always take them for the extra ST damage if available (gravity control excepted).  The quick containment setup on a boss isn't bad either.  On a dom I never see the need.

 

#1 change I'd like to see with them is to just speed up their damage over time.  Right now they are all DOTs that take 9.2 seconds to fully deliver the damage.  I'd like to see that sped up to at least twice the speed (so that the damage would be delivered in half the time).  Most controllers are pretty slow for ST damage as it is, I don't really see the purpose of these being such drawn out dots.

 

 

Same, I always take the ST immob for containment and low-endurance-cost damage.

If the damage could be front-loaded, that'd be great. 

What would be fantastic is if it could do at least 50% damage up front, and also keep doing DoT for as long as the immob lasts. So if a person used an immob set that boosts duration by 60%, the DoT continues for the entire time. That'd help against tough targets, being able to stack that with containment.

Earth's immob needs a damage boost.

[Runewritten]

16 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

So the question is - if you get rid of the immobilizes for dominators what do you give them?

 

I could see a single target soft control - fear, sleep, stun.  Short duration.

 

I'd be tempted to give them debuffs instead.  Give them a weak debuff from the defender version of the powerset theme.

If I were to wholesale replace a single dom power across the board, I'd definitely replace it with some sort of minor defensive power, like blaster secondaries got.
Probably a mez resist toggle, so permadom doesn't seem quite so necessary.

[Coyote]

I'm not keen on the replacement ideas, largely because CoH has not generally and historically replaced powers. There have been exceptions, but they are rare enough and for large enough problems, to show that it's not something done without great need. And look at Snipes... they were not replaced, but rather their mechanism was changed at lot, and they became one of the best powers in their sets instead of one of the most skipped. I think what we want is a reason why Immobs are better.

 

Then, I look at my DOMINATOR who took, slotted, and used a ST Immob as an attack. Fire/Psy, so I had a choice of Subdue or Ring of Fire, and RoF was as good and available earlier for exemping. Granted, that's because /Psy lacks a good ranged attack after the Snipe, but there are other sets that are lacking in ranged damage and could use a blast from the primary: Earth and Savage, at least.

 

So, I see the possibility of making ST Immobs useful just by making them competitive attacks. Speeding up the DoT would be one step. Another step would be raising their Recharge to 6 seconds... this would increase their damage (and thus DPA) substantially. Lastly, look at the longer animations and try to speed them up a bit... none should be longer than 1.7 seconds. If this is done, then they become competitive attacks... nothing top-tier to boost a top single-target chain, but at least usable in a mediocre attack chain, and possibly slotted up to fit in with a character who may not have enough ranged attacks. Certainly most Controllers, but even some Doms might use a competitive mid-tier ranged attack if it had a faster DoT.

[Zepp]

Do ST immobilizes follow the standard damage formula? I ask because they seem underwhelming on two fronts, lower damage than similar recharge attacks and being long DoTs that generally have mobs die before all their damage is dealt while also messing up sleeps and placates (thus making them incompatible with two forms of real control).

 

If they are below standard damage than bringing them in line and making them less DoT oriented where appropriate would help with that aspect.

 

Edit: I understand that immobilize is considered a control and placate is not. However, as a person who plays trollers a lot, I define controls as powers which prevent mobs from attacking while slows and immobilizes are in the debuff category.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Zepp

[DougGraves]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

Another step would be raising their Recharge to 6 seconds... this would increase their damage (and thus DPA) substantially.

 

For dominators this is a good idea.  Since they already have more attacks they don't need a fast recharge one, but a bit longer recharge and more damage would make them useful.

 

The AoE immobilize even doubled still isn't significant damage though.  You'd really have to boost its recharge.

[CrudeVileTerror]

*shrugs*

I kind of like the Immobilizes, both the Single Target and AoE variety.

Because I don't take them.

And that allows me some nice flexibility on Controller and Dominator Builds.

 

BUT, that being said . . . I would really appreciate new Control Sets thinking outside the box and not adhering the same formula so much.  Mind Control and Illusion Control are unique in that they don't have Immobilizes.  Let's consider building any new Control Sets using those as inspiration for the layout of the Set.  Switch things up!  Keep it fresh and interesting.

[Effusion]

I've been skipping them since 2004. I don't really value their immobilize (except on illusion because it's so containment starved, but illusion doesn't get one) so I've always just looked at them as attacks and found them lacking.

[Eldyem]

On 1/19/2021 at 8:03 PM, Dracomicon said:

3) No under or over performers.

I strongly disagree with this; Ring of Fire outdamages several Blaster T1s in terms of damage per animation. Stone Prison is outdamaged by several pool powers.

[Coyote]

8 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

For dominators this is a good idea.  Since they already have more attacks they don't need a fast recharge one, but a bit longer recharge and more damage would make them useful.

 

The AoE immobilize even doubled still isn't significant damage though.  You'd really have to boost its recharge.

 

Yeah, but you could actually squeeze out a lot more damage with an increased Recharge and a smaller AoE radius, with procs.

Right now, the proc chance is about 13%, and on the damage procs that you can put in (4 of them generally), that's about 9 pts of damage. So 36 proc damage, plus a bit of base damage... with Containment, I think a bit over 60 damage. Not too good for an 8 second recharge, but it has a huge radius.

 

Drop the radius to 20' and increase Recharge to 12, and the % goes up to 12, increasing the damage to 17/proc. Now, depending on the base damage, you're doing about 100 damage with it, which makes it a lot easier to clear spawns by alternating an AoE Immob and Wall of Force. It's not great AoE damage, but it becomes usable for a soloing Controller. At 8 seconds and 30' radius, the damage just isn't worth the endurance spent on it unless you have a good source of +Recovery.

[DougGraves]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

Yeah, but you could actually squeeze out a lot more damage with an increased Recharge and a smaller AoE radius, with procs.

 

Powersets should not be designed based on using IOs. 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Yeah, but you could actually squeeze out a lot more damage with an increased Recharge and a smaller AoE radius, with procs.

 

I think we digressed into AoE immobilizes (not the topic of this thread), but this goes back to one of my complaints about ST immobilizes: if a player is expected to invest slots and specific enhancements in a T1 power to make the power useful,  this is a problem with the power.

 

T1 powers are available (and mandatory, for secondaries) at character launch, and presumably should provide utility over a very wide variety of content (based on level).

 

The comparison to T1 Blaster powers are a little disingenuous IMO, especially if enhancement slotting is considered. The Blaster T1/T2 primary powers retain some utility over the entire level range of game content simply because those attacks can be cast while mezzed.

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

 

Powersets should not be designed based on using IOs. 

 

If you want to make AoE Immobs useful in the current game, where keeping mobs at a distance is less relevant when they die faster and when they hit less often... either immobilize needs to have an inherent -Def/-Res effect due to the target being unable to dodge attacks, or you need to raise their damage a lot so they're useful as damage powers. Right now, IOs are the way to squeeze in damage, but if the devs are willing to turn the AoE Immobs into smaller-radius powers with real damage, that would certainly make them more desirable without needing the use of damage procs for it. It just seems like a relatively large step.

 

Granted, the Snipe changes were pretty large, and I think they turned out pretty cool. So maybe it's worth asking for the AoE Immobs to get some real damage added to them?

[Zepp]

On 1/21/2021 at 10:45 PM, Coyote said:

Yeah, but you could actually squeeze out a lot more damage with an increased Recharge and a smaller AoE radius, with procs.

Right now, the proc chance is about 13%, and on the damage procs that you can put in (4 of them generally), that's about 9 pts of damage. So 36 proc damage, plus a bit of base damage... with Containment, I think a bit over 60 damage. Not too good for an 8 second recharge, but it has a huge radius.

 

Drop the radius to 20' and increase Recharge to 12, and the % goes up to 12, increasing the damage to 17/proc. Now, depending on the base damage, you're doing about 100 damage with it, which makes it a lot easier to clear spawns by alternating an AoE Immob and Wall of Force. It's not great AoE damage, but it becomes usable for a soloing Controller. At 8 seconds and 30' radius, the damage just isn't worth the endurance spent on it unless you have a good source of +Recovery.

Now your argument (increasing recharge to 6s) is making more sense to me. You are not talking about power damage, but proc damage. If they change the proc damage formula (there has been some talk of adjusting procs in the not so distant future) then you are left with ST immobilizes on longer recharge with less damage... Not sure that is the best path towards improving ST Imms.

[Zep]

On 1/20/2021 at 7:27 AM, DougGraves said:

 

Are they also good for fire with bonfire to turn the knockback into knockdown?

Yes, unless you have the kb->kd io slotted in bonfire at which point it doesnt matter.

 

Typically when I would use that combo I would be spamming fire cages (mass immob) not ring of fire. 

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

Now your argument (increasing recharge to 6s) is making more sense to me. You are not talking about power damage, but proc damage. If they change the proc damage formula (there has been some talk of adjusting procs in the not so distant future) then you are left with ST immobilizes on longer recharge with less damage... Not sure that is the best path towards improving ST Imms.

 

Well, the increase of recharge to 6s is for ST Immobs. These actually do fair damage for a 4 second recharge power, but since it's DoT, it's less effective damage. So increasing to 6s recharge would make their damage good, but limited by being DoT. That's aside from using procs.

 

However, for AoEs, procs are the only real source of damage. So these would improve a lot with a recharge increase (to 12 or 16 seconds... probably 16 would be too much), while even if the damage did increase proportionately, it's so low and so slow that it wouldn't be noticed. So for AoE Immobs, damage = proc damage. Unless they are willing to change their damage and make them real damage powers (which wouldn't bother me in the slightest, I think it's warranted). If they do this, then we may consider balancing damage IOs and damage proc IOs, like I do now in my single target Immobs.