Weekly Discussion 85: T1 Immobilises in Control Sets

[GM ColdSpark]

Happy Sunday everyone! Last week you discussed Kinetic Melee - Writeup is here. 

 

This week it's a discussion on T1 Immobilises in Control Sets as suggested by @Darkneblade

 

Weekly discussion 85 17th January till 23rd January 2021

Let's talk about - T1 Immobilises in Control Sets (or STOP!..... Hammer Time)

 

Things to think about:

• How often you take them when you have the choice
• What would you like instead of them if you could change them
• Are there over/under performers out there
• Good/Bad animations or effects

 

If you have suggestions you'd like to throw into the mix for future weeks and you'd like to win an in-game title for one of your characters (if your topic is chosen in a vote), then please send me a message and I'll add it to the list.

 

Standard reminder - keep it respectful folks.  😇

Edited January 17, 2021 by GM ColdSpark

[Riverdusk]

On a controller I almost always take them for the extra ST damage if available (gravity control excepted).  The quick containment setup on a boss isn't bad either.  On a dom I never see the need.

 

#1 change I'd like to see with them is to just speed up their damage over time.  Right now they are all DOTs that take 9.2 seconds to fully deliver the damage.  I'd like to see that sped up to at least twice the speed (so that the damage would be delivered in half the time).  Most controllers are pretty slow for ST damage as it is, I don't really see the purpose of these being such drawn out dots.

 

 

[Eldyem]

These are primarily taken for damage/setting containment (to do damage) on Controllers.  To this end, I personally would like if some of the longer animating ones (Earth comes to mind) would do a little bit more damage. It's sort of unfortunate that Control sets with a lot of damage already like Fire (and I think Plant?) have the significantly better versions of a power that primarily does damage.

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, GM ColdSpark said:

• How often you take them when you have the choice
• What would you like instead of them if you could change them
• Are there over/under performers out there
• Good/Bad animations or effects

How often: Frequently.

 

What would I like - Nothing. I prefer the ST immobilize.  On doms, I'll often take this instead of the AOE immob, or put the AOE off, but the ST is more a "must have" for me. The only character I can think of that has one that hasn't taken it is my "2004 reenactor," who's more support focused and had to pick other things to simulate taking the fitness pool, which makes the build tighter.

 

Under/overperformers - As long as they're immobilizing things, I'm happy. None really stand out, there. There was a point in time on live (as I recall) where some, like Earth, couldn't be used on flying targets - but with that not being the case now (at least that I can tell,) I'd say they're fine.

 

Honestly, I'm generally pretty happy with them.

[Zepp]

I generally do not take them because they are too weak and I prefer real controls over immobilization. What is annoying is that some real controls (fear and confuse) do not create containment, so if I want to optimize damage I have to give up control.

 

I think the only immobilize I have in a build at the moment in a DomTroller is Chain Fences (AoE), but that is because it contributes to Endurance Drain in a meaningful way. I don't have any single target immobilizes in any non-blasters, and I don't think I've slotted it in any of my builds.

[catsi563]

ive always taken it but for me its a damage dealer used to keep the damage flowing while i control the rest good finisher too on low health targets

[DougGraves]

The problem with AoE immobilize for controllers is not that they have them - it is that they use them.  It is a huge pain on teams when there is a controller who thinks that every fight should start with immobilizing the enemies while they are spread out.  I skip it on all of my controllers and dominators (most of my characters).

 

The single target immobilize is good for controllers for damage and containment.  The aoe immobilize makes sense for trying to give controllers containment but is a detriment when teaming. 

 

I would leave it as is for controllers - with containment it has a purpose.

I would remove it for dominators.  As a dominator I skip the single target immobilize and aoe immobilize - I have my other set for damage.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by DougGraves
it is aoe not aod

[OmegaOne]

On Controllers I usually take them - I mean extra control and a bit of extra damage, especially when I solo. I haven't played many Dominators, but I suppose it depends on the build - what controls they want to shoot for and how many damage powers they take in the secondary.

[Runewritten]

I haven't taken the T1 immobilize since... since my first controller on live.
I guess if you're desperate for DPS as a controller, it's something to take. But for me, between all the purchasable attacks and epic pools, it still feels superfluous, and doesn't set up anything another control couldn't.
And yeah, for a dom, it's definitely an auto-skip. I have a hard enough time deciding on an attack chain without thinking about slow-acting immobilizes. 

I'm honestly surprised they're getting so much love so far. I'd just flat out replace them, but I guess they have a special place in someone's heart.

Maybe increasing/adding some potent secondary effects like debuffs would make them more interesting to the rest of us?

[Zepp]

15 hours ago, DougGraves said:

The problem with AoE immobilize for controllers is not that they have them - it is that they use them.  It is a huge pain on teams when there is a controller who thinks that every fight should start with immobilizing the enemies while they are spread out.  I skip it on all of my controllers and dominators (most of my characters).

 

The single target immobilize is good for controllers for damage and containment.  The aod immobilize makes sense for trying to give controllers containment but is a detriment when teaming. 

 

I would leave it as is for controllers - with containment it has a purpose.

I would remove it for dominators.  As a dominator I skip the single target immobilize and aoe immobilize - I have my other set for damage.

Fold Space ftw!

[SeraphimKensai]

Regarding ST Imobs for Controllers/Dominators...

1. Speed up the DoT damage, or just change it to burst damage.

2. Set up a link to boost each control sets secondary effects if that target is under the effects of the ST Imob by say ~33%

 

 

[Xenosone]

Take out the aoe and keep the single target.

Alternatively reduce the giant aoe to half size. Theres just too many bad players that spam aoe immobilize like its a fireball and unfortunately since this is reddit you cant say anything to these bad players lest you wish to get banned for hurt fee fee. This is your culture that you cultivated.

[Snarky]

20 hours ago, DougGraves said:

The problem with AoE immobilize for controllers is not that they have them - it is that they use them.  It is a huge pain on teams when there is a controller who thinks that every fight should start with immobilizing the enemies while they are spread out.  I skip it on all of my controllers and dominators (most of my characters).

 

 

THis.  It is so much easier to kill groups after they have clustered around the tank/brute/stalker...sorry scrappers.  It is great to constantly have new players.  Yes!  It is frustrating to team with them sometimes.  Like, really?  you are adding so much work here dude lol

[Yomo Kimyata]

I do not take the T1 immobilize powers, except possibly in late game to try and stop AVs from running.  I would love a compelling reason to take them, but low damage spread out over a long period of time means I'm wasting time and endurance with additional attacks trying to knock off my opponents before I immobilize them to death while they keep shooting at me.

 

More damage?  Front loaded damage?  New immobilize sets?  I dunno.  

[Uun]

I always take the ST immobilize, both for controllers and dominators. Other than setting up containment for controllers, I find the real value is rooting AVs and bringing down flyers. There are so many situations where AVs take off running (or flying) and a ST immobilize is just the thing. Also handy if you want to stay out of range of mobs with hard-hitting melee attacks. 

 

I wouldn't complain if the DOT were sped up or converted to front-loaded damage, but I don't think the damage needs to be increased.

 

I would like to see more equity in the secondary effects and the number of IO sets they accept - some just accept ranged damage and immobilize, while others accept more. Stone Prison does -def but doesn't accept defense debuff or accurate defense debuff sets. Perhaps some secondary effect could be added to Ring of Fire and Entangle (slow?) just to even things up.

[Zepp]

Note: I do not take ST immobilize; I am not alone in this.

Observation: Some have requested damage-related adjustments / more variety of accessible IOs.

Query: Would creating 1-3 Immobilize sets along the same lines as the new Endurance Modification sets (Power Transfer & Synapse's Shock) wherein damage is modified by some/many of the enhancements change your calculations?

[tidge]

Obviously this question in geared towards primaries, where there is a choice. My answer is I never take a T1 Single-Target Immobilize, if I can help it - see point below about secondaries being forced to take them.

 

My dislikes:

• At low levels, the Immobilize offers very little practical benefit when facing enemies. Many enemies will still be able to attack, meanwhile you have the other enemies in the group who are not immobilized.
• Single-Target Immobilizes require slots/investment to be reliable (because you must actually HIT) and/or try to leverage them into having an expanded role.
• IMO, the Immobilize enhancement sets are among the least useful in the game... despite the fact that they have a Very Rare set, while powers using Fear do not. Almost every AT with a ST immobilize has a better place to invest slots. Seriously: why does Immobilize get enhancement sets love (and bonus from sets) while Fear did not?

The only utility I have gotten from ST immobilizes that isn't a complete corner case (depending on a specific enemy) is that if I hit an enemy, and they don't resist immobilize, they won't run all over the map.

 

How would I change them?

• Swap the T1 and T2 so that the folks with secondaries aren't forced to take them (see below). Having a skippable power at T2 is completely acceptable to me, given how the primary and pool powers become available between levels 2-12.

If swapping the T1/T2 is out of the question, the T1s need to be given some other effect that makes them meaningful at all levels of the game, such as:

• A slight, unboostable -Def(All) component. Low level characters should be able to hit immobilized more reliably (assuming they can actually hit with the ST T1 to begin with). I know they get beginner's luck, but this would at least keep some utility at higher levels.
• A pseudo-pet component with a slight, unboostable AoE speed Debuff.  I don't really like this idea, as it is motivated more for flavor (ya runs by the web, ya slow down) but such a mechanic would give me a reason to try to spam ST T1 immobilizes against different enemy targets and it might make a low level Controller feel as if they were actually controlling an encounter as opposed to controlling a single mob.

Please let's not lose sight of that for 'control' secondaries (ehem, Mastermind Traps), for several sets have no choice but to take a ST immobilize.

[SeraphimKensai]

23 minutes ago, tidge said:

If swapping the T1/T2 is out of the question, the T1s need to be given some other effect that makes them meaningful at all levels of the game, such as:

• A slight, unboostable -Def(All) component. Low level characters should be able to hit immobilized more reliably (assuming they can actually hit with the ST T1 to begin with). I know they get beginner's luck, but this would at least keep some utility at higher levels.
• A pseudo-pet component with a slight, unboostable AoE speed Debuff.  I don't really like this idea, as it is motivated more for flavor (ya runs by the web, ya slow down) but such a mechanic would give me a reason to try to spam ST T1 immobilizes against different enemy targets and it might make a low level Controller feel as if they were actually controlling an encounter as opposed to controlling a single mob.

Please let's not lose sight of that for 'control' secondaries (ehem, Mastermind Traps), for several sets have no choice but to take a ST immobilize.

I thought boosting the secondary effects of each set while under a t1 Imob would help for some sort of mechanism/incentive to take a t1 Imob.

 

Regarding MM's their secondary sets are not control sets as so much as support sets (whether buff/debuffs), and traps, although amazing solo has its own issues that need adjustment to help it in a team setting, is not a control set as it's primary needs but more of a debuffing set than anything.

 

[Vanden]

On Controllers, they can be worth taking, since Controllers don't get a lot of powers that follow the standard damage formula and can function as attacks, but it would be nice if they dealt all their damage up front instead of being DoTs. On Dominators, these powers are pointless, because a single-target immobilize is a nothing of a control effect, and they get a secondary full of real attacks, so they offer virtually nothing of value to them.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Vanden

[Zep]

My Controllers are Fire/Storm, fire/kin and a low level Grav/Storm, My dominators are many but the main is elec/elec.

 

I usually take the single target immob on my controllers. It is the best single target damage at low/mid level. Even at high level if I need to burn a specific target I stack hold/immob as fast as they recharge.

 

Also at end game/TF's a lot of big bad boys/girls have less immob resistance then hold. Nailing an AV's feet to the floor can be helpful. Stacking Ring of Fire and the Crey Cold Gun right at the start of the fight helps build immob up fast.

 

On my main Dominator I dont know I will take Electric Fence - I have other better powers for doing damage. When I do want to immob Chain Fences gets the job done. 

 

As others have said the single target immob is as much a damage power as a control power.

[Hedgefund]

#1 on my wish list for immobs is nothing the devs can do, I just want players to have better judgement of when to use them.  For example - NOT on the ramp going to the bowl in a MSR.  

 

Anyway, my rule of thumb is

Controllers - AOE yes, ST no

Doms - AOE no, ST maybe (perhaps even "probably", I really hate run-away AVs).

 

I don't really have much to say about immobs, I've never thought of them as problematic.  The recent-ish change to allow kd addressed my biggest complaint about immobs.  I think they serve a purpose and don't want to see them replaced.

 

Looking back I see the request was to discuss T1 immobs and I'm talking about immobs in general.  Too lazy to edit for a more focused post, so time to hit "submit".

[Eldyem]

14 hours ago, Zepp said:

Note: I do not take ST immobilize; I am not alone in this.

Observation: Some have requested damage-related adjustments / more variety of accessible IOs.

Query: Would creating 1-3 Immobilize sets along the same lines as the new Endurance Modification sets (Power Transfer & Synapse's Shock) wherein damage is modified by some/many of the enhancements change your calculations?

I'm not slotting these powers for immobilize, so short of having some truly absurd set bonuses I don't see what this would possibly change. Immobs already take a fairly decent array of procs, already have a great uptime to recharge ratio, and already take damage sets.

 

14 hours ago, tidge said:

Obviously this question in geared towards primaries, where there is a choice. My answer is I never take a T1 Single-Target Immobilize, if I can help it - see point below about secondaries being forced to take them.

 

My dislikes:

• At low levels, the Immobilize offers very little practical benefit when facing enemies. Many enemies will still be able to attack, meanwhile you have the other enemies in the group who are not immobilized.
• Single-Target Immobilizes require slots/investment to be reliable (because you must actually HIT) and/or try to leverage them into having an expanded role.
• IMO, the Immobilize enhancement sets are among the least useful in the game... despite the fact that they have a Very Rare set, while powers using Fear do not. Almost every AT with a ST immobilize has a better place to invest slots. Seriously: why does Immobilize get enhancement sets love (and bonus from sets) while Fear did not?

In all fairness about slotting, Control set Immobs have 90% (1.2x) accuracy baseline. While there's some outliers that would probably need looked at (Fire Manip's Ring of Fire, maybe), I don't think it'd be that absurd to apply this (or a slightly lower version of it) to the in Secondaries.

[Cidri]

16 hours ago, tidge said:

IMO, the Immobilize enhancement sets are among the least useful in the game... despite the fact that they have a Very Rare set, while powers using Fear do not. Almost every AT with a ST immobilize has a better place to invest slots. Seriously: why does Immobilize get enhancement sets love (and bonus from sets) while Fear did not?

The same can be said for Slow sets - they also need to get the endurance drain treatment. For me, the best control are things like Quicksand and Shiver than impose a massive slow, but there is constant anguish over the lack of slow good sets.

 

About the immobilizers, most of my thoughts had been expressed by others so I used "like" a lot above.

[ForeverLaxx]

I only take the ST Immobilize if I feel I need the damage, and to that end, the damage they deal just happens way too slowly. 9 seconds for the full delivery is too long, in my opinion. And, because I only take them when I feel I want more damage, they're completely superfluous on Dominators for me unless the Control set I picked is very light on control powers that lock an opponent in place (read: heavy on stuns).

 

The ST Immobilize is also often respec'd out of later once you have a more fluid suite of powers, slots, and enough damage from elsewhere to make the glacial damage of the ST Immobilize no longer necessary. Sometimes I keep them for AVs as I think they have lower resistance to immobilizes (though that might no longer be accurate today, I haven't looked), but not very often.

[DoctorDitko]

I'm not much of a fan of immobilizes in general and the ST versions seem underwhelming to me.

 

With a new set, I'll usually take all the powers in both primary and secondary and then respec out of the ones I don't care for. The ST immobilizes are often the first to go. If their damage was better or faster to apply, I might be more inclined to keep them.