"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[golstat2003]

10 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Indeed, which is a huge factor in why I wanted to bring up the thread too starting with the market. Like... what is the most expensive Enh atm....

 

 

Some of the most common are only between 3-5mill

 

 

 

 

 

 

The best IO's range between ~10 and ~20mill a pop, with the tippity top ones seemingly all at around 20m. 

 

Running a random PI radio mission on my lvl 50 at merely 0/5, I gained:

 

+445,526 raw Inf

7 rando salvage I sold for 1 each, making a profit of 2,285

attained 1 SO that I sold at a store for 15,600

attained 5 generic recipes that I sold at a store for 516,650

 

Adding it all up, a rather casual (even at x5) level 50 mission garnered $980,061. I would wager even just cranking it up to x8 would net double that per mission on average even at +0. 

 

Actually, having wiped that let me see what a random 8 man mission gets me...

 

+1,156,237 raw inf, but I only got 1 drop (rando yellow IO) with I sold on the AH for a profit of 23,117, totaling $1,179,354. Running another with the team of about the same size mission netted $1,067,377.  I got rather unlucky with drops, but that first one showed that even a handful of dropped loot can easily net another half a mill casually!

 

...Actually, lets try solo again but at 0/8:

 

Inf: 785,505

Enh: 0
Gen Recipes: 892,675 (seriously, just sell these at stores.... they add up mad fast)

Salvage: 955

Set Recipes: 19,812

Total: $1,698,947

 

Lets say you are just randomly running a few radios a night, say 5. If each one nets you around 1.5 mil each including just selling rando stuff you get, that is 7.5m a night if that's all you do. If you play 3 nights, that is 22.5 mil, which is enough to bid on the most expensive IO's on the market. That is *nutso* compared to live!!!

 

With this kind of "casual" income, you could reliably buy up basically any IO you want just by playing around at high level. I didn't even bother to do a whole TF or anything to see what that'd be like.... but this is something to chew on in terms of availability.

 

And I'm completely fine with this. Live was dumb. But HAD to be cause it was a SUBSCRIPTION game. They had to keep you playing longer so how long it took to get things wasn't really an issue that they were going to budge on.

 

For a now FREE game, yeah getting gear faster isn't really an issue. 

 

The HC devs seem to agree with all the market related changes they made to make it easier to get gear. I'm glad.

Edited February 9, 2021 by golstat2003

[Yomo Kimyata]

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Indeed, which is a huge factor in why I wanted to bring up the thread too starting with the market. Like... what is the most expensive Enh atm....

 

 

Some of the most common are only between 3-5mill

 

 

 

 

 

 

The best IO's range between ~10 and ~20mill a pop, with the tippity top ones seemingly all at around 20m. 

 

Running a random PI radio mission on my lvl 50 at merely 0/5, I gained:

 

+445,526 raw Inf

7 rando salvage I sold for 1 each, making a profit of 2,285

attained 1 SO that I sold at a store for 15,600

attained 5 generic recipes that I sold at a store for 516,650

 

Adding it all up, a rather casual (even at x5) level 50 mission garnered $980,061. I would wager even just cranking it up to x8 would net double that per mission on average even at +0. 

 

Actually, having wiped that let me see what a random 8 man mission gets me...

 

+1,156,237 raw inf, but I only got 1 drop (rando yellow IO) with I sold on the AH for a profit of 23,117, totaling $1,179,354. Running another with the team of about the same size mission netted $1,067,377.  I got rather unlucky with drops, but that first one showed that even a handful of dropped loot can easily net another half a mill casually!

 

...Actually, lets try solo again but at 0/8:

 

Inf: 785,505

Enh: 0
Gen Recipes: 892,675 (seriously, just sell these at stores.... they add up mad fast)

Salvage: 955

Set Recipes: 19,812

Total: $1,698,947

 

Lets say you are just randomly running a few radios a night, say 5. If each one nets you around 1.5 mil each including just selling rando stuff you get, that is 7.5m a night if that's all you do. If you play 3 nights, that is 22.5 mil, which is enough to bid on the most expensive IO's on the market. That is *nutso* compared to live!!!

 

With this kind of "casual" income, you could reliably buy up basically any IO you want just by playing around at high level. I didn't even bother to do a whole TF or anything to see what that'd be like.... but this is something to chew on in terms of availability.

 

Sorry to repeat the clip, but I get so excited with market posts.  This demonstrates clearly my contention that in the kinder, gentler AH, there is absolutely nothing that is priced out of reach for a reasonable amount of effort.

 

Two additional observations:

1.  The experiments I've run indicate that a kill-all paper mission at 50, be it -1/1 or 4/8, will net you 1-2mm inf if you vendor everything (including IO recipes and rare salvage).

2.  Everything you listed can be (and is!) created for even less than the selling prices (except that 6,666 bug).

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

And I'm completely fine with this. Live was dumb. But HAD to be cause it was a SUBSCRIPTION game. They had to keep you playing longer so how long it took to get things wasn't really an issue that they were going to budge on.

 

For a now FREE game, yeah getting gear faster isn't really an issue. 

 

The HC devs seem to agree with all the market related changes they made to make it easier to get gear. I'm glad.

I 100% agree that the more affordable market is a positive thing for the game! At the same time though, the game was clearly not intended to have the portion of people with these tools that we have today for much the same reasons you mention here. On live, for every decked out character there were likely 1000 that were "basic", on HC it feels closer to 1:10. The balance that came from the scarcity + effort of attaining these things is out the window and we're in a much different (not worse, different) environment today.

 

24 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Sorry to repeat the clip, but I get so excited with market posts.  This demonstrates clearly my contention that in the kinder, gentler AH, there is absolutely nothing that is priced out of reach for a reasonable amount of effort.

 

Two additional observations:

1.  The experiments I've run indicate that a kill-all paper mission at 50, be it -1/1 or 4/8, will net you 1-2mm inf if you vendor everything (including IO recipes and rare salvage).

2.  Everything you listed can be (and is!) created for even less than the selling prices (except that 6,666 bug).

If you use dropped recipes to craft / converters than yes it can be even cheaper! But just looking at the gainz per casual missions + "buy it now" prices, it shows the barrier to entry on IO's is very small if you choose to dive in.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I'm going back to my original views. The game is not balanced. Full stop. It never will be. But I'm damn glad I can play it regardless.

[Coyotedancer]

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm going back to my original views. The game is not balanced. Full stop. It never will be. But I'm damn glad I can play it regardless.

Word.

[Galaxy Brain]

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm going back to my original views. The game is not balanced. Full stop. It never will be. But I'm damn glad I can play it regardless.

Damn straight.

 

Also yes, the game will never be balanced, or at least 100% balanced nor should it be. That said it should definitely be smoothed out more!!! There will always be a best/worst everything, but as long as the gap between isn't astronomical or one set invalidates another then all should be good.

[Luminara]

On 2/7/2021 at 1:42 PM, oedipus_tex said:

The APP powers are not shared assets from the archetype, they are their own unique power that originates as a copy-paste.

 

You're right.  I'm wrong.  Thank you.

 

That still brings the problem back around to identifying the power before modifying the trigger probability.  Neither the PPM equation nor the proc system itself specifically identify powers, which means some method of identification would be required.  There are 200-300 powers in *PPs which would fit the model suggested for modified proc trigger chances, so it can't be as simple as "If power = X, then -20% chance".  X would be a sizeable list, an extra 200-300 lines of unique power names.  That's not a simple modification to a formula, it's a database crammed into the formula.  A separate database would be easier to work with, and it would have to be a database specific to PPM because the existing powers database would have thousands of entries, making it much slower.  Even with a small database and a quick "is the power in here" check, it's not simple, or as fast (adding more checks and verifications slows down the processing, potentially adding a delay of 1/3-1/2s for even a fast pass).

[Luminara]

On 2/8/2021 at 8:14 AM, ForeverLaxx said:

My point is that we have no idea if the original devs would have ended up satisfied with the system by the end of it all because they're not around anymore to have a say.

 

We have no idea if the planet is going to continue to spin, or the sun continue to fuse hydrogen, or the universe continue to exist, when we wake up each morning.  But we can examine the evidence and reach a reasonable and accurate conclusion by applying logic and reasoning.  This is equally applicable to human behavior and action, doubly so when the subject documents his goals and decision-making process and engages in discussion with others.  As I've said several times, Synapse was direct and forthright in what he was doing, why he was doing it, how he was going to do it and what he expected as a result.  The PPM mechanic as it is now matches.

 

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I'm going to call it a duck, even if a bunch of fear-mongering panic monkeys are insisting that it's a kumquat.

 

On 2/8/2021 at 8:14 AM, ForeverLaxx said:

Your tendency to speak with a perceived authority when you're guessing as much as the rest of us is irksome and tiring.

 

Well, I guess that means I'm sleeping alone tonight.  Where's my sad face...

 

😞

[tidge]

53 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

We have no idea if the planet is going to continue to spin, or the sun continue to fuse hydrogen...

Nerf fusion.

[Luminara]

On 2/6/2021 at 11:12 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

This power can literally slot 6 procs and then through outside bonuses still have decent stats:

 

Circling back around to this, I did a rough reproduction of this build to get a better idea of how it would perform.

 

What isn't mentioned is that it's dependent on the Force Feedback +Recharge proc.  That's what makes it possible for Seismic Smash to cycle in that period of time.  If the proc doesn't trigger, or the power with the proc misses, the cycle time is longer.  That's a pretty sizable limitation that should be noted, not glossed over or ignored.  Two limitations, in fact - the Accuracy cap and the proc trigger probability cap.

 

Additionally, the average damage over time doesn't favor six-slotting procs so heavily that it's a clear and obvious choice in this case, to my eyes.  In my repro, Seismic Smash's recharge time is 5.16s and the average damage output with six 71.75 damage procs is 670.7.  Slotting the power with 5/6 Hecatomb, including the damage proc, and placing the Unbreakable Constraint damage proc in the sixth slot, though, leads to a recharge time of 4.14s and average damage output of 669.7.  Slotting with two purple procs and four 71.75 damage procs leads to an average of 734.3 damage, which is better, but still not mind blowing when compared to the average output of the Hecatomb 5/6 + UC proc slotting.

 

Furthermore, when I examined the potential DPS of both attacks, accounting for maximum damage if all procs triggered and accounting for the complete cycle time of the power (animation plus recharge), I found that, even with 2 purple procs, the six proc slotting came out at lower DPS (114.0779522978476) than the Hecatomb 5/6 + Unbreakable Constraint purple proc (118.7158469945355).  The damage can be higher per use of the power when slotted with six procs, but the damage over time is lower than slotting traditionally and adding one extra proc.  And bear in mind that this was ignoring the 90% probability cap.

 

Frankly, I don't see the allure.  Or a compelling argument for proc nerfs.

 

But that wasn't why I came back to this post.  What's been bothering me about this is that it has certain negative implications regarding player investment and expectation.

 

Any build focused this heavily on +Recharge is going to cost (i know, it's how i build most of my characters).  I'm not saying that it's difficult to acquire the funding for this kind of build, but it does require an investment of time.  Time spent farming, or converting and selling enhancements on the market, or creating that jaw-dropping costume that wins the contest.  Time has to be spent to pay for all of the purples and ATOs that this build is going to need.  Are we, then, concluding that the time a player invests in creating, leveling and kitting out a build should not be rewarded?

 

This build requires heavy micro-management.  There's Hasten and Domination to juggle, since only one of them can be set to auto-fire.  The +Recharge from the FF proc has to be maintained or recovered (when it misses or fails to trigger).  The endurance usage is high, so constant attention to that is necessary.  This build is a lot of extra work for the player.  Are we saying that working harder should not be rewarded?

 

The build is comparatively light on AoE damage potential.  A high damage single-target attack, with a 1.7s animation time, is of limited value in this game, whereas AoE damage offers significantly better return on investment.  Consequently, the player is giving up the potential for higher AoE damage in favor of higher single-target damage.  Isn't that always a factor in builds?  Shouldn't that choice matter?

 

Animation time imposes a ceiling on DPS.  Recharge times directly impact DPS.  Dumping the majority of one's damage output into one or two powers six-slotted with procs, on slower recharge times and with longer animation times doesn't actually improve DPS, because the overwhelming majority of combat in this game revolves around defeating minions and lieutenants, foes with far fewer HP.  Having great DPS on pylon tests means exactly diddly squat in actual play, and in most cases, those heavily procced attacks are going to be overkill.  Wasted animation time is a net loss in DPS.  Slower recharge times are a net loss in DPS if you don't have comparable powers to fill your attack chain.  Solo, it's manageable, but annoying.  In teams, it can rapidly lead to feeling completely useless, with everything dying while you're still stuck in your animation, or the player displaying a single-minded focus on bosses and ignoring everything else to the detriment of cooperative and friendly play.  When builds like these cross an indefinable line between "really good" and "rubbish unless there's a boss or better", is it the development team's responsibility to play nursemaid and prevent players from crossing that line?  Shouldn't players be permitted to screw themselves over for the 95% or the game involving minions/lieutenants so the can shine in the remaining 5%, if that's what they want to do?

 

The high endurance cost of Seismic Smash is a limiting factor.  Only specific builds are going to work with this kind of slotting.  Players who slot this way aren't going to be doing it on every imaginable build, it's only viable for builds which can improve Recovery in some way, include means of reducing endurance costs natively, or can drain endurance as a tertiary mechanism to support the use of powers not slotted for Endurance Reduction.  Essentially, players sacrifice the opportunity to play more varied builds in order to make something like this work without even more effort on their part.  Is that compromise not worthy of some compensation in game play?

 

Lastly, the people playing builds like these are likely to be long-term players who have accumulated a great deal of experience and knowledge.  Theory crafting at this level doesn't come from glancing at powers in the character creation screen six weeks after discovering the game.  Figuring out how to squeeze everything in, how to pay for all of the enhancements, how to tweak just the right ways and in the right places... that's not newbies doing that, that's vets.  Are we to expect every benefit of experience and knowledge to be nerfed?  If so, best get started on turning every power in to Brawl, because that's the only possible solution.

 

All of the talk about what procs can do when abused, but nothing about what it costs the player to do that.  Time, work, animation times, recharge times, diversity, many factors are just as important as whether or not a character beat up something 2s faster than another character.  If someone is playing a character that can't perform well unless a certain power hits and a certain proc triggers, they're constantly having issues with endurance, they're struggling to keep up a rapid pace because they spend too much time locked into longer animations, they're broke because they spent all of their inf* on their "perfect" proc monster build, and they're not contributing much to teams until there's a boss/EB/AV/GM, and in the long run, they're still not dealing as much damage as players who are slotted "normally", are they really a threat to game balance?

[Luminara]

On 2/8/2021 at 6:21 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

to a degree I think it is the principle of the matter + how certain sets don't get to join in.

 

"Oh, elec control can proc the hell out of jolting chain and do nutty stuff!"   vs   "Oh.... ice control is uh... cool"

 

"Man, I can proc the hell out of Infrigidate, and then my blast set can proc FF to keep the cycle on that + my debuffs strong"  vs  "Uhhhh, I can slot panacea in my empathy powers!"

 

 

 

Maybe they should give us the ability to use two power sets on every character so it's less unfair.  We could have a primary set and a secondary set, and mix and match as we please, and have plenty of opportunities to slot in a variety of ways.

 

Boy howdy, that'd be nifty.

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 2/9/2021 at 3:10 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

or at least 100% balanced nor should it be

I still greatly disagree with this. Balance can be achieved without power creep and homogenization. It would just take hard work and a lotta time.

[Monos King]

Haven't read through all of this but some of you might be forgetting teamplay. And how procs are, of course, explosively better than normal enhancing when all those global buffs are there to eradicate the trade offs of going proc heavy. Someone should look at that since that is probably apart of the conversation.

[Galaxy Brain]

28 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I still greatly disagree with this. Balance can be achieved without power creep and homogenization. It would just take hard work and a lotta time.

What I meant there is that "it should not be 100% balanced perfectly", because that is an impossible goal. Smoothening the curves so that everything is competitive though is certainly achievable. Take for example... balancing a healing set with Rez powers vs the sets that simply prevent damage + soften enemies up so its harder for them to cause damage / be defeated faster + the fact players themselves build for these factors. In this sense, a "Healer" set is inherently disadvantaged in what it wants to do even if it heals for 3098473249897hp on auto fire. You'd pretty much need to make enemies that *require* healing to deal with, that also cannot be just nuked in order to make it matter.

 

Even with that, it then may still not be balanced as now a set that is like a hybrid of heals and other things is now worse than a pure healer in that situation, etc, it'd just go on forever. A more realistic approach would be to make the healing sets at least still have value in some way to make them a competitive part of a team throughout the game in some manner without resorting to hammering in a puzzle piece they *need* to fill. 

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Maybe they should give us the ability to use two power sets on every character so it's less unfair.  We could have a primary set and a secondary set, and mix and match as we please, and have plenty of opportunities to slot in a variety of ways.

 

Boy howdy, that'd be nifty.

That still doesn't address the set to set comparison. Sure, you could pick up a secondary with more slotting options (or vice versa), but then why not also pick a primary with more options too? 

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

*snip of big post*

FF needing to proc is hardly an issue due to how it works, given you can keep proccing it and stacking the duration and the +Rech helps it proc more. On a power you toss out often it can be very simple to maintain and the wiggle of like 1~2 seconds. The example there also avoided purples, though they are a factor as I posted earlier with how they are not as exclusive as they were back in the day.

 

Point being, loading it up with procs + outside bonuses ended up being way better for offense on an AT that is regarded as a damage dealer. On top of that, an example of how certain powers can legit be loaded with procs while some cannot, with the type of power seeming to not matter given this is a melee heavy-hitter you could argue *shouldn't* need procs! As Monos said, there are also X factors that benefit procs even more if teams shore up slotting woes.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Haven't read through all of this but some of you might be forgetting teamplay. And how procs are, of course, explosively better than normal enhancing when all those global buffs are there to eradicate the trade offs of going proc heavy. Someone should look at that since that is probably apart of the conversation.

Definitely a worthwhile examination. I can tell you what happens to my poison/fire/psi defender, which is about as proc heavy as any build you will come across.

 

I love team survival buffs. I had to sacrifice a ton of my own mitigation via bonuses to put in procs so even forcefield and empathy are my personal heroes.

 

Procs don't benefit from +damage buffs so the classic kin based speed teams are of little benefit to me. I can already hit my own damage cap pretty often thx to low defender caps. My damage capped fireball isn't turning  the tide of many fights. + recharge buffs are always welcome, but most late game builds already have compete attack chains, my proc builds are not different in that regard.

 

I do like other -res debuffers, but so does everyone.

 

Ultimately my proc builds benefit more than my other builds from team survival buffs, controls, aggro management and similar, but not much else is different. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coyote]

11 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Ultimately my proc builds benefit more than my other builds from team survival buffs, controls, aggro management and similar, but not much else is different. 

 

Wait, more use for my Controllers and Doms on a team?

Make m0r3 pr0c builds, kthx.

[Luminara]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

That still doesn't address the set to set comparison. Sure, you could pick up a secondary with more slotting options (or vice versa), but then why not also pick a primary with more options too?

 

Why does every set/set combination need to be identical in terms of slotting, when every set/set combination is going to do different things and perform differently even with identical slotting opportunities?

 

13 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

FF needing to proc is hardly an issue due to how it works

But it is a limitation.  A series of limitations.  At least one power has to have KB/KU for the proc to be slotted.  That power has to be used, even if it's not an ideal power and may result in a loss of DPS.  The power has to hit.  The proc has to trigger.  Only after all of those conditions are satisfied can the +Recharge be applied.  The +Recharge buff is not guaranteed.  You're advocating a change to procs for everyone based on what a limited few can accomplish once they satisfy all of the requirements, and ignoring that those requirements exist at all in the process.

 

41 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Point being, loading it up with procs + outside bonuses ended up being way better for offense on an AT that is regarded as a damage dealer.

 

It's not "way better".  It's not even a little better.  It's worse.  The conditional requirements are higher, the damage output isn't better unless you're slotting it with purples and every proc triggers every time, and even if every proc triggers every time, the damage output for total cycle time is still lower than it would be if you slotted 5/6 Hecatomb and the Unbreakable Constraint proc.  You've also hampered yourself with higher endurance costs and lower potential survivability (zero set bonuses for individual procs), and you have to work harder than you would with less proc-centric slotting.

 

That's not even "as good as".  And as an example of why procs need a nerf, it's accomplished nothing beyond proving that procs are fine right where they are.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Why does every set/set combination need to be identical in terms of slotting, when every set/set combination is going to do different things and perform differently even with identical slotting opportunities?

Stop that, I have never once asked for IDENTICAL. Rather, I pointed out there is a factual disparity in who can slot what. Whether this is due to lacking options straight-up (can only slot melee damage for example), or lack of options for what they can slot (lol Stun IO's), there is unequal *opportunity* for many sets. This was shown to have recently been addressed with End Mod sets, adding in End/Damage IO sets with very unique and fun perks and bonuses. This makes it so elec sets DO NOT HAVE IDENTICAL SLOTTING to other sets, but rather EQUITABLE OPTIONS. For balancing around IO's, I would much rather have that where tons of sets get fun perks they can choose from instead of facing limitations that similar sets do not have to endure.

 

11 minutes ago, Luminara said:

But it is a limitation.  A series of limitations.  At least one power has to have KB/KU for the proc to be slotted.  That power has to be used, even if it's not an ideal power and may result in a loss of DPS.  The power has to hit.  The proc has to trigger.  Only after all of those conditions are satisfied can the +Recharge be applied.  The +Recharge buff is not guaranteed.  You're advocating a change to procs for everyone based on what a limited few can accomplish once they satisfy all of the requirements, and ignoring that those requirements exist at all in the process.

This is being obtuse, the same limitations occur for the power you're using the procs with. Procs do not exist in a vacuum, and often the "utility" procs like that are straight up game-changing due to how they interact with other procs and powers. My En/Time blaster can consistently have FF up at all times with just 2 AoEs that can take the proc in general combat due to target saturation + global recharge bending the rules of PPM. AoE's make it incredibly, incredibly unlikely it WONT fire off, and the nature of it's boost being global makes it way better than just about any other slot you can place except arguably the -KB slot depending on the power, which also arguably outpaces any slot per power that takes it (certain KB powers do not proc FF, but luckily go to TOWN if they become KD). 

 

As I showed earlier, even Casual McNewguy can earn enough to buy Purple IO's if they just hop into random radio missions in a timely manner on their lvl 50, making the barrier to do this just a matter of time investment/experimentation. Speaking of...

 

14 minutes ago, Luminara said:

It's not "way better".  It's not even a little better.  It's worse.  The conditional requirements are higher, the damage output isn't better unless you're slotting it with purples and every proc triggers every time, and even if every proc triggers every time, the damage output for total cycle time is still lower than it would be if you slotted 5/6 Hecatomb and the Unbreakable Constraint proc.  You've also hampered yourself with higher endurance costs and lower potential survivability (zero set bonuses for individual procs), and you have to work harder than you would with less proc-centric slotting.

"If I slot this power 100% with PURPLE IO's it is better than not slotting it with the best possible slotting options money can buy"

 

The example I used avoided purples for a reason, being that they are above and beyond the normal procs. But, this also raises a question about it where a suite of a 5/6 purple set + another purple proc only slightly edged out a hodgepodge of random "rare" procs, should the expectation be that they spend a lot more on purples (even if they are comparatively affordable)? Yes, that does give you more options for set bonuses but if you get "good enough" elsewhere with a fraction of the cost/effort, why not use that one?

 

I think this all depends on which way we're looking at it (bottom up or top down). From the latter, all bets are off and we can expect the best of the best of the best IO's / Incarnates / Etc being used.... but then does the content hold up to that/should that be an expectation for players to achieve regularly? From the former, just how much bang for your buck does certain slotting give you if you can make up for stats in those one/two bomb-powers in other ways, and does that greatly sway the expectations of how certain Powers, Power Combos, or even AT's perform? (For the latter, look at Scrapper vs Brute vs Scrapper with ATO's)

 

I don't think we are seeing eye to eye when it comes to what we mean by balance. Proc-bombing I feel is kind of goofy by itself and for the sake of the few powers that are true "bombs" + to open up future IO's it may well be worth addressing, but it is not the main issue at all. 

 

Part of the balance too is what IO's are available per power/set/AT as I have touched on. A Fire/Empathy corruptor for example is pretty dry when it comes to fun extra stuff they could slot that could be game changing (not even damage procs, but utilities) compared to other combinations of Pri/Sec for a Corruptor. Its not that the combo is "Bad", but the lack of opportunity could leave it missing out compared to other set combinations and that is no fault of it's own/anything the player did simply because it does not have the ability to use certain gamechangers. The availability is of question too where it is far far easier to get IO's, and by a big extension but along the same path of thinking Incarnates, in HC... is it expected to be able to use these? If so, that doubles back on their impact to how sets perform in general.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Random post. On my claws/bio, using Followup, Focus, Slash, repeat, AT IO +crit proc in FU, Purple and PvP procs in Focus, Purple and -damres proc in slash, triple stacking FU on Focus, gets around 150 LESS dps than @nihiliishows for their heavily proced out chain. I've avoided procmonster builds specifically because I expected them to be nerfed. Course, I no longer expect that but I am left not wanting to try them out.

 

13 hours ago, nihilii said:

Regarding Claws vs DB, Claws/Bio can deal 600+ DPS running procced out Follow Up -> Focus -> Shockwave -> Moonbeam -> Follow Up -> Focus -> Shockwave -> Slash.

[nihilii]

To give proper credit, this was @josh1622's entire idea and build. The man has a knack for achieving proc feats I could only dream of. 😄

[nihilii]

Also, oh no, proc nerf discussions!

 

I think Frosticus and Luminara have made salient points, that is, the significant conditional taxes a build with heavy reliance on procs must pay.

Endurance is the obvious one. In most cases you will not be able to sustain a proc build without Ageless. Right away this locks you out of Clarion mez protection for most squishies, or of Barrier for extra survivability.

Accuracy is also easy to forget. On a normal IO build you probably don't even think twice about Accuracy. On a proc build you will likely have to pick Tactics, Kismets and specifically chase set bonuses in order to get to 95% tohitchance against +4s.

It's not as simple as "plug procs, do more damage". Proc builds definitely require extra thought and a level of planning that goes beyond regular minmaxed builds. At least for me (and that's where I find my fun, so I will shamelessly defend the current state of procs).

 

I think everyone has an intuitive sense of these tradeoffs. Hence why so few people actually go the heavy proc route.

You can be softcapped to everything or you can load up your build with procs but you probably cannot do both. That's a good thing. Not only this means balance, but character immortaility is an often named problem of high level play. Anything that lessens average survivability should be especially good.

In truth, proc builds might trade as much as ~50% of their survivability to deal maybe ~20% more damage. It's likely even lower than that, because I'm not sure how many proc builds proc out *all* AoEs and STs. Got to get some set bonuses somewhere!

Edited February 11, 2021 by nihilii

[Sovera]

29 minutes ago, nihilii said:

You can be softcapped to everything or you can load up your build with procs but you probably cannot do both. That's a good thing. Not only this means balance, but character immortaility is an often named problem of high level play. Anything that lessens average survivability should be especially good.

In truth, proc builds might trade as much as ~50% of their survivability to deal maybe ~20% more damage. It's likely even lower than that, because I'm not sure how many proc builds proc out *all* AoEs and STs. Got to get some set bonuses somewhere!

...

 

Carry on. Nothing to see here.

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Random post. On my claws/bio, using Followup, Focus, Slash, repeat, AT IO +crit proc in FU, Purple and PvP procs in Focus, Purple and -damres proc in slash, triple stacking FU on Focus, gets around 150 LESS dps than @nihiliishows for their heavily proced out chain. I've avoided procmonster builds specifically because I expected them to be nerfed. Course, I no longer expect that but I am left not wanting to try them out.

 

It's an example of what a high damage AT can do with procs and more -res than most defenders can put out. 

 

I'm sure your own claws/bio has virtues that the proc heavy one doesn't though.

 

I've got a freshly lvld em/fa scrapper that I've gone the proc route on. No it isn't particularly tough, I think of it more as a "blapper" than a scrapper , but the burst damage is....high enough that I don't worry about anything that other ATs /builds are up to.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

I think everyone has an intuitive sense of these tradeoffs. Hence why so few people actually go the heavy proc route.

Truth. I'd hate to see what kind of mitigation I'd have to give up.

[Galaxy Brain]

On mobile, but it depends on the build what you give up and what becomes a bomb. If you have 1-2 powers as bombs you could still get great other stats without sacrificing much + getting a wicked good power. 

 

But anyways, that convo isn't so much about the bombs so much as how they are more due to the slotting options available allowing you to absolutely load up powers.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Galaxy Brain