Change Sidekick to level rather than level-1

[BelleSorciere]

After running an ITF on my Dark/Dark controller and dealing with +5 mobs all the way through, I find myself asking what purpose the -1 to team level serves, given the large gap between being -4 to mobs vs being -5. That is, if I read the table correctly, 30% effectiveness vs. 48%. I didn't really feel like I was doing much other than a few buffs and a minor amount of damage. 

 

Due to having a character that relies on control, buffs, and debuffs, I felt less effective than I ever have on any other character, even when sidekicking, and I'm not even sure the reasons for the -1 level are still true in the game today.

[Purrfekshawn]

Lvl 50 characters also usually have +1 incarnate shift, so it's not quite true what u stated above. It's not 30% effectiveness vs. 48%, it's actually 30% effectiveness vs. 66%. Thus agree that it's not the same!

[BelleSorciere]

Oh I meant 30% vs 48% with the change with the sidekicked character, but yes that's a very good point and I didn't think to compare to the 50 +1

[Greycat]

I'd say it's flavor.  You're a sidekick, not a peer. Kid Superguy, not Superguy themselves.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Not hoping to get lynched here, but . . . 

Could the team leaders just start being considerate and launching things at +3 (or lower) instead when they know they have Sidekicks on the team?

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Not hoping to get lynched here, but . . . 

Could the team leaders just start being considerate and launching things at +3 (or lower) instead when they know they have Sidekicks on the team?

Yes.  Curtesy fixes this issue.

 

I'm not opposed to the original suggestion either.   

[arcane]

3 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Not hoping to get lynched here, but . . . 

Could the team leaders just start being considerate and launching things at +3 (or lower) instead when they know they have Sidekicks on the team?

Or, bear with me here.. drumroll.. imagine this: just start using whatever difficulty is comfortable for the team on a case by case basis 🙂

[Uun]

As much as I like ITFs, I refuse to run them sidekicked and wait until I hit 50 to run them for this very reason. I just feel so ineffective against +5s.

 

The other option (which is difficult to get people on board with) is to have the leader NOT be a lvl 50 and let the 50s exemp down. The TF level will lock relative to the leader's level at the time it's started. If the leader is 45+, the 50s will still keep their incarnate goodies.

[Doc_Scorpion]

6 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Not hoping to get lynched here, but . . . 

Could the team leaders just start being considerate and launching things at +3 (or lower) instead when they know they have Sidekicks on the team?

No, I agree with you here.  The problem isn't the sidekick system, it's the team leader.  (And, to a certain extent, the social meta of running at the max difficulty.)

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Or, bear with me here.. drumroll.. imagine this: just start using whatever difficulty is comfortable for the team on a case by case basis 🙂

Dead on.  If you are joining someone else's TF, ask them if they would consider lowering it if it's too much for you.  If you are running a TF, ask your teammates what they would prefer.  

[arthurh35353]

5 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

No, I agree with you here.  The problem isn't the sidekick system, it's the team leader.  (And, to a certain extent, the social meta of running at the max difficulty.)

This seems to be a bit of the issue, yes.

 

While I like the idea of the sidekick being the same level as the team leader, I'd suggest (for flavor and to head of the 'why are you making the game easier you scrubs?') I'd suggest that the sidekick get a small (scaling?) buff to to-hit/accuracy and a small scaled debuff to damage to symbolize that they aren't the 'big damn hero/villain' but are learning from them.

 

JMO, you know.

Edited February 8, 2021 by arthurh35353

[Razor Cure]

12 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Not hoping to get lynched here, but . . . 

Could the team leaders just start being considerate and launching things at +3 (or lower) instead when they know they have Sidekicks on the team?

Being considerate, or basically 'letting' those SK'd people leech more xp?

 

Sure, in many cases, the sk'd people may only be a few levels below the leader, and have plenty of powers/slots to make them useful. But in a lot of other cases, the sk'd people are like sub20, and borderline useless (aside from things like auto hit buffs/debuffs) and really contribute very little to the team.

 

Naturally some people think that is totally fine, and say so when recruiting for a team (PI papers lfm, any level welcome). In other teams though, especially Maria's AV arc, I have seen a stack of lowbies join..and THEY are usually the ones moaning that the team is 'only' set +2 to teh leader. One particular team, a level 18 rad fender joined. He literally did jack all but spam Irradiate, and talk about how well we were steamrolling, and how +4 would be way better. This when the team totally was NOT steamrolling, and taking about 5 mins+ per mob. I suggested he might try actually using his debuffs to make it faster, and of course he got super offended.

 

I agree with what Greycat said. It's called Sidekick for a reason. Otherwise the name would need to be changed..and its still unneeded change.

 

8 hours ago, Uun said:

As much as I like ITFs, I refuse to run them sidekicked and wait until I hit 50 to run them for this very reason. I just feel so ineffective against +5s.

 

The other option (which is difficult to get people on board with) is to have the leader NOT be a lvl 50 and let the 50s exemp down. The TF level will lock relative to the leader's level at the time it's started. If the leader is 45+, the 50s will still keep their incarnate goodies.

This! Sadly, a lot of other people have nooo trouble jumping on a team of incarnates and basically doing nothing helpful. Reminds me of an RSF a few nights ago. A lvl 46 tank joins, and brags about being a tank and being able to still help. And she did ok..on a team with 2 darks, and emp and a trap fender (all her, naturally). Then the final mission, she dives into the sig heroes before buffs, and got insta gimped. I fell off my chair laughing.

THEN she stays on the team for an STF (in spite of it being the weekly and already having the bonus). That to me is just plain greedy.

 

I like your point about doing a sub max level TF. Ages ago, when ITF was weekly, I did a level 43ish ITF, cause me and my friend were 43. I deliberately advertised for non 50s, and said we wouldnt be running at 50, even if any wanted to join anyway.

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

This seems to be a bit of the issue, yes.

 

While I like the idea of the sidekick being the same level as the team leader, I'd suggest (for flavor and to head of the 'why are you making the game easier you scrubs?') I'd suggest that the sidekick get a small (scaling?) buff to to-hit/accuracy and a small scaled debuff to damage to symbolize that they aren't the 'big damn hero/villain' but are learning from them.

 

JMO, you know.

This option IS in the game (kinda). It was used in the original release for the Summer Blockbuster. https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Summer_Blockbuster_Event_2012, check under "Sneaked In". If this was given to SKs as opposed to just equaling the leader's level would that be acceptable? It might need a tweak but the code is there.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Darmian

[BelleSorciere]

14 hours ago, Greycat said:

I'd say it's flavor.  You're a sidekick, not a peer. Kid Superguy, not Superguy themselves.

It's not flavor. It's a mechanical choice that has a real impact on one's ability to participate in a mission or task/strike force

 

I know there's always people who push back against suggestions with comments like "Just have the leader set the level lower" or whatever and I'm not going to engage that.

 

I also don't even slightly care about "people playing ineffective characters leeching XP." It seems to me that could be solved by the leader choosing not to invite them to the team. 🙃 Plus SFs and TFs have level minimums so level 20s can't run ITF as far as I know.

 

Since SOs are available right from the start I don't think that's really a good argument. Yes characters with more slots and powers are more effective, but if sidekicking didn't penalize players this harshly this would make much less of a difference.

Edited February 8, 2021 by BelleSorciere

[arthurh35353]

7 minutes ago, Darmian said:

This option IS in the game (kinda). It was used in the original release for the Summer Blockbuster. https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Summer_Blockbuster_Event_2012, check under "Sneaked In". If this was given to SKs as opposed to just equaling the leader's level would that be acceptable? It might need a tweak but the code is there.

This is not a bad idea, but I couldn't see the stat for it? Do we know the buffs it gives?

[Razor Cure]

2 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

It's not flavor. It's a mechanical choice that has a real impact on one's ability to participate in a mission or task/strike force

So the lowbies who join a PI AV team, arent useless because they have 5 unslotted powers..but because the mechanics are vindictive? Yeah, ok.

 

Also, a ALL task forces auto SK now anyway. If its say a lvl 35 TF, and ONE player at the 30 min ends up at 35 (I cant even recall..would they be 34 or 35?) and somehow thinks they are usless, there are only a few possibilities:

 They just suck

 The tf level is set way too high

 

In either case, the solution is pretty obvious. Either dont join a team with a significant level increase over your own, discuss the team difficulty with team members, and if they insist on running +4 or whatever and you feel useless, leave! Or just create the team yourself.

 

[arthurh35353]

And there's the 'don't change a thing for improvement' crowd. /le sigh.

[Darmian]

2 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

This is not a bad idea, but I couldn't see the stat for it? Do we know the buffs it gives?

I'm afraid I don't, sorry.  Anyone else remember this?

[summers]

A good idea with no negatives IMO

 

Edit: To add to this, lower level characters are already disadvantaged by having fewer powers and fewer enhancement slots. If you think they should be further disadvantaged by -1 you must enjoy telling people their experience/contribution must be worse for... reasons?

 

Why would you want your team mates to go through that?

Edited February 8, 2021 by summers

[BelleSorciere]

Just now, Razor Cure said:

So the lowbies who join a PI AV team, arent useless because they have 5 unslotted powers..but because the mechanics are vindictive? Yeah, ok.

 

Also, a ALL task forces auto SK now anyway. If its say a lvl 35 TF, and ONE player at the 30 min ends up at 35 (I cant even recall..would they be 34 or 35?) and somehow thinks they are usless, there are only a few possibilities:

 They just suck

 The tf level is set way too high

 

In either case, the solution is pretty obvious. Either dont join a team with a significant level increase over your own, discuss the team difficulty with team members, and if they insist on running +4 or whatever and you feel useless, leave! Or just create the team yourself.

 

I invite you to show me where I said the mechanics are "vindictive."

 

The rest of this is just individual solutions to a game mechanics problem. It's okay to change game mechanics and improve QOL.

[Razor Cure]

2 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

I invite you to show me where I said the mechanics are "vindictive."

Uh..what? I never SAID you said it. Try to keep up. You are moaning the sk mechanics impact team and TF contribution. And totally blaming said mechanics..not the people who join as lowbies.

And in both cases, the sk mechanics really do not have negative impacts, unless the person is question is super under leveled. Begging the question, why are they joining a team that is way higher?

Vindictive is the word I choose, in a sarcastic manner.

 

[BelleSorciere]

1 minute ago, Razor Cure said:

Uh..what? I never SAID you said it. Try to keep up. You are moaning the sk mechanics impact team and TF contribution. And totally blaming said mechanics..not the people who join as lowbies.

And in both cases, the sk mechanics really do not have negative impacts, unless the person is question is super under leveled. Begging the question, why are they joining a team that is way higher?

Vindictive is the word I choose, in a sarcastic manner.

 

'k

[golstat2003]

Eh, just ask the leader or team if they would not mind running at a lower level. 

[BelleSorciere]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

Eh, just ask the leader or team if they would not mind running at a lower level. 

No:

4 hours ago, BelleSorciere said:

I know there's always people who push back against suggestions with comments like "Just have the leader set the level lower" or whatever and I'm not going to engage that.

 

[Purrfekshawn]

18 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Not hoping to get lynched here, but . . . 

Could the team leaders just start being considerate and launching things at +3 (or lower) instead when they know they have Sidekicks on the team?

Could the team leaders just start being considerate & pay 200 Million to every non-50 character they see in vicinity?

Edited February 8, 2021 by Purrfekshawn