Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 hour ago, Snowdaze said:

This is incredibly dismissive toward a balance issue that just because you perceive it as a non-issue does not invalidate it's truth. There are reasons things like PVP web grenade temp powers were added to the game. Flying pvpers get cocky and giving them even more fly protection, when there is already a very large lack of -fly in game is a bad choice. Also flying melee combat is very very hard and flying ranged characters will always have an upper hand.

So what you are saying is the ground based scrapper should just grow wings and some ranged attacks?

 

Web Grenade is -10 mag fly.

Evasive Maneuvers is only mag 4 fly protection, on top of mag 1 from fly powers.

This change will, at this time, only protect from things like a few Air Superiority attacks or weaker -fly attacks.

 

Any change from there, for PvP, are up to PvP community agreement. But keep in mind the old Afterburner already offered this same Mag 4 protection. This is not new, players were just not able to attack while running the old Afterburner.

[Snowdaze]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Web Grenade is -10 mag fly.

Evasive Maneuvers is only mag 4 fly protection, on top of mag 1 from fly powers.

This change will, at this time, only protect from things like a few Air Superiority attacks or weaker -fly attacks.

 

Any change from there, for PvP, are up to PvP community agreement.

Thank you for the acknowledgement, and the actual numbers, which at this moment don't display very well, which brought me to the concern. As long as you are aware of the concern, I'm content enough knowing it's not being over looked.

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Snowdaze said:

fair enough, that alone isnt enough to even bring down hover. Now if there is the same recharge on the Fakkolade (I have not bought or used them so I dont know), it is effectively useless on it's own to bring down a foe using -fly protection.

In PvP, bringing additional players will offer more advantages to any given situation. If you intentionally constrained yourself to only relying on the Nullifier fakkolade to inhibit the escape of a flying enemy player, you will likely fail as you stated - but there are other powers to consider and appropriate balance between those powers effects and player resistances to them. For example, assuming a player is PvPing solo, they can purchase 10 uses of the temporary web grenade power from the PvP vendor and use them against flying enemy players. This provides -50% fly speed for 15.00s and 10 fly protection for 15.00s on target (this power recharges in 4 seconds).

 

I would suggest you test the changes on Brainstorm that you are arguing against. The feedback your provide would be much more informed.

[ironjoe]

Testing the travel changes I like all so far that I have tested. I will continue to check for some bugs as I go. The only exception I have is on Ninjitsu where the changes to powers in reaction to changes here act as a small travel nerf but I posted the specifics there (Power Changes: Focused Feedback).

Edited March 13, 2021 by ironjoe
Realized I wasn't specific where "there" was.

[Snowdaze]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

In PvP, bringing additional players will offer more advantages to any given situation. If you intentionally constrained yourself to only relying on the Nullifier fakkolade to inhibit the escape of a flying enemy player, you will likely fail as you stated - but there are other powers to consider and appropriate balance between those powers effects and player resistances to them. For example, assuming a player is PvPing solo, they can purchase 10 uses of the temporary web grenade power from the PvP vendor and use them against flying enemy players. This provides -50% fly speed for 15.00s and 10 fly protection for 15.00s on target (this power recharges in 4 seconds).

 

I would suggest you test the changes on Brainstorm that you are arguing against. The feedback your provide would be much more informed.

I am well aware of the web grenades, and testing a pvp effect with just yourself is kinda hard. Also the Evasive Manuvers is not listing how much flight protection it gave... Also I very much went on brainstorm to test some things. but much like PvP "bringing additional players will offer more advantages" and I am but one. 

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

I am well aware of the web grenades, and testing a pvp effect with just yourself is kinda hard. Also the Evasive Manuvers is not listing how much flight protection it gave... Also I very much went on brainstorm to test some things. but much like PvP "bringing additional players will offer more advantages" and I am but one. 

Let us work together. I am on Brainstorm in Recluse's Victory.

[Snowdaze]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

Let us work together. I am on Brainstorm in Recluse's Victory.

I already got my validation from Captain Powerhouse. 

[Jacktar]

Hi Group Fly:

patch is just minor tweaks to this really unloved power pick.

So a couple of thoughts and observations,

 

rolled a new Mm and levelled up till I had first two tiers of pets and two picks from Fly pool to unlock GF

With pets out and group fly powered up I travelled corner to corner in Atlas without stopping. It was fantastic to have my pets flying with me and keeping up and all of us arriving at same time. Totally the oposite of our current Live experience. Have there been some backroom tweaks or whatever that has changed this on this patch?

 

Am perfectly happy with the GF fly speed given I prefer company on journey over speed.

 

However, a few things I just wish could be done to greatly enhance this power,

make “make me affected by group fly” default be globally OFF. Then instead of having to visit the Gull on 90% of my alts to turn it off I could take just the few Mastermind alts there to turn it on. And I could then use it without hacking off most of my team who have no liking or use to be group flown!

 

Please make it so I can pick it without having to pick two unwanted travel powers from that pool first. I want to have and use Group Fly on my Mastermind alts as soon as I have pets to use it on. Three picks to get it makes it come way to late for a pet support power and also wastes two picks I could much better use in my build. Why is such a QOL power for Mm’s locked behind two other power picks.

 

So thank you for getting it to work properly and wishes for it to be made properly available to Mm’s. 

 

 

[bigfashizzel]

Really appreciate the changes to Teleport and the Recall Friend component of Teleport Target.  Very positive.

[arthurh35353]

Fly changes. Sound nice on paper, are now incredibly annoying and stacking hover over fly makes fly poses broken and afterburner is now super ^%)*(&!@)(@!^) ANNOYING.

In fact, why the hell did they change afterburner from being the way to shorten really long flight to 'just a burst of faster flying'?

Edited March 13, 2021 by arthurh35353

[Glacier Peak]

10 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

I already got my validation from Captain Powerhouse. 

 

Excellent. With Hover and Fly activated in a PvP zone or arena, a player with no set bonuses or enhancements slotted receives 4 Mag Fly on Self from Hover and 1 Mag Fly on Self from Fly. You would need to cast or stack a total of Mag 5 Fly against a target to remove their ability to fly for a short period of time (15s). This can be achieved with one cast of Web Grenade temp power.

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

Fly changes. Sound nice on paper, are now incredibly annoying and stacking hover over fly makes fly poses broken and afterburner is now super ^%)*(&!@)(@!^) ANNOYING.

 

Mentioned previously, but currently a very clunky workaround is:

- Activate fly

- Select fly pose

- Activate hover.

 

The fly pose will stick. (I think until you stop.)

 

No, it's not ideal. Yes, I want it fixed, too.

[arthurh35353]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

 

Mentioned previously, but currently a very clunky workaround is:

- Activate fly

- Select fly pose

- Activate hover.

 

The fly pose will stick. (I think until you stop.)

 

No, it's not ideal. Yes, I want it fixed, too.

It is super annoying that I now have to activate 4 toggles to get the best long term flight *and* one of those toggles will turn off fairly quick.

[Captain Powerhouse]

We are aware of the stacking animation issues between Hover and Fly.

We are looking at possible workarounds but no promises at this time, its just an artifact of how the animation system works. Currently, manually turning on hover is the only solution.

 

If we can figure something out, we will implement it. Already got some things to test internally and see if they make the cut, still want everyone to stay grounded in the possibility that the only workaround might be to manage the toggles.

[Dokam]

Feel like I need some more speed on my Dark Nova now 😞 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Dokam

[Glacier Peak]

5 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

Fly changes. Sound nice on paper, are now incredibly annoying and stacking hover over fly makes fly poses broken and afterburner is now super ^%)*(&!@)(@!^) ANNOYING.

In fact, why the hell did they change afterburner from being the way to shorten really long flight to 'just a burst of faster flying'?

The Flight Travel Power changes are on the beta shard for a reason. Having the animation of Hover take precedent over Fly appears to be the cause of yours and others stated dislike, perhaps this can be addressed in a subsequent Build as @Captain Powerhouse stated above. 

 

As an aside, I noticed that the description of Evasive Maneuvers indicates Res(-Fly), however, the Detailed Info tab lacks it's stated Fly resistance:

[InfamousBrad]

At 7 pages of comments before I even woke up, someone has probably said this, but I have two minor concerns about the travel power redesign, both related to the "cottage" rule.

 

One of the fundamental principles behind all the travel powers in the game is that the easier they are to use, the slower they are, which is why flight is slower than super leap is slower than teleport is slower than superspeed. If the flight speed cap is higher than the jump speed cap, why would anybody ever take super leap? The jump speed cap may not need to be much higher than the flight speed cap, its base speed doesn't need to be much faster than fly's base speed. But under the "cottage" rule, it absolutely does need to be faster.

 

Similarly, travel speed scales with level for a solid design reason: with few exceptions, higher level zones are physically bigger than lower level zones. It should take a level 14 character about the same time to fly the length of Port Oakes that it takes them, at level 35, to fly the length of St. Martial, that it takes them, at level 50, to fly the length of Grandville. (Independence Port and Nerva break these rules, and that's why they've always been hated). Since it's literally impossible to resize the lowbie zones, I think the travel speed cap should probably still scale with level. I'm not going to fight and die on this hill ... but the rule exists for a good reason.

[Glacier Peak]

7 minutes ago, InfamousBrad said:

At 7 pages of comments before I even woke up, someone has probably said this, but I have two minor concerns about the travel power redesign, both related to the "cottage" rule.

 

One of the fundamental principles behind all the travel powers in the game is that the easier they are to use, the slower they are, which is why flight is slower than super leap is slower than teleport is slower than superspeed. If the flight speed cap is higher than the jump speed cap, why would anybody ever take super leap? The jump speed cap may not need to be much higher than the flight speed cap, its base speed doesn't need to be much faster than fly's base speed. But under the "cottage" rule, it absolutely does need to be faster.

 

Similarly, travel speed scales with level for a solid design reason: with few exceptions, higher level zones are physically bigger than lower level zones. It should take a level 14 character about the same time to fly the length of Port Oakes that it takes them, at level 35, to fly the length of St. Martial, that it takes them, at level 50, to fly the length of Grandville. (Independence Port and Nerva break these rules, and that's why they've always been hated). Since it's literally impossible to resize the lowbie zones, I think the travel speed cap should probably still scale with level. I'm not going to fight and die on this hill ... but the rule exists for a good reason.

Great question! Super Jump now has a Server Tray power called Double Jump which acts like the Jumpack/Steampack P2W power for 30 seconds (10 in pvp zone) to give it more verticality, perhaps even on par with Fly if given a decently high platform or second jump location. Super Jump also has an added maneuverability that Fly doesn't quite match in terms of falling speed and horizontal movement. 

 

To your second point about travel speed scaling for level due to map sizes, I would say that is arbitrary and I haven't heard of this rule before.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

It is super annoying that I now have to activate 4 toggles to get the best long term flight *and* one of those toggles will turn off fairly quick.

Have You even tested this, or anyone else with this complaint?

 

Fly+Evasive is currently equivalent to old Fly+AB. So thats two toggles - the new design allows you to function in combat instead of locking you out like old AB did.

 

Now if You activate new AB in conjunction with Fly+Evasive yiubare rivaling old sj and SS at that point 

 

Its a net gain in every sense of the notion and if you tested this responsibly and thoughtfully its blatantly evident.

[arthurh35353]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Have You even tested this, or anyone else with this complaint?

 

Fly+Evasive is currently equivalent to old Fly+AB. So thats two toggles - the new design allows you to function in combat instead of locking you out like old AB did.

 

Now if You activate new AB in conjunction with Fly+Evasive yiubare rivaling old sj and SS at that point 

 

Its a net gain in every sense of the notion and if you tested this responsibly and thoughtfully its blatantly evident.

Yes, in fact I did get on there with one of my characters that had fly already on it (and isn't likely to respec because level 50 respecs with all those IO sets is a pain in the butt.)

I used to hit fly, hit afterburner and fly long distances because, surprise surprise, it was a travel power. Now to get 'gud' with it I have to activate more powers and the afterburner effect should be renamed to 'short burst of speed that is incompatible with long range travel'.

[Jimmy]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Have You even tested this, or anyone else with this complaint?

 

Fly+Evasive is currently equivalent to old Fly+AB. So thats two toggles - the new design allows you to function in combat instead of locking you out like old AB did.

 

Now if You activate new AB in conjunction with Fly+Evasive yiubare rivaling old sj and SS at that point 

 

Its a net gain in every sense of the notion and if you tested this responsibly and thoughtfully its blatantly evident.

And if you only care about speed, then you just need to turn Fly on. That's one less toggle than before 🙂

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

Yes, in fact I did get on there with one of my characters that had fly already on it (and isn't likely to respec because level 50 respecs with all those IO sets is a pain in the butt.)

I used to hit fly, hit afterburner and fly long distances because, surprise surprise, it was a travel power. Now to get 'gud' with it I have to activate more powers and the afterburner effect should be renamed to 'short burst of speed that is incompatible with long range travel'.

No you don't, it's fly - which can by itself in conjunction with swift reach 87mph thats previously only with Fly+AB

 

Now Fly +evasive - two toggles equals fly + AB

 

Again if You tested this thoughtfully you would come to this conclusion.

[arthurh35353]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

And if you only care about speed, then you just need to turn Fly on. That's one less toggle than before 🙂

That isn't how it looks from the description. And doesn't negate that you've messed up a travel power that would require respeccing your whole character to keep 'the same' when you had afterburner for max speed for long distances.

 

You should have made the 5th choice (flight mastery) give you two toggles that exclude each other. One that is the long term afterburner and the other is movement master that allows perfect combat flight.

 

The short toggle flight in after burner is just annoying clicks on long flights. 

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

That isn't how it looks from the description. And doesn't negate that you've messed up a travel power that would require respeccing your whole character to keep 'the same' when you had afterburner for max speed for long distances.

 

You should have made the 5th choice (flight mastery) give you two toggles that exclude each other. One that is the long term afterburner and the other is movement master that allows perfect combat flight.

 

The short toggle flight in after burner is just annoying clicks on long flights. 

You are still a lot faster than before.

 

With less toggles and better functionality.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, arthurh35353 said:

And I did test it on an existing character. The afterburner change is %^#@^@^ ANNOYING.

Then dont use it - even without it you ARE AS FAST AS BEFORE.   With better functionality.