Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Tigraine]

10 hours ago, GM Lines said:

 

Not sure if this clarifies the confusion:

The power itself won't detoggle if a player uses an attack, but the defence buff (and only the defence buff) will be supressed. This is the same as how it currently works on beta, except that currently it also suppresses if an enemy hits the player.

 

Components of the power like -fly and immob resist and the flight control will remain active whether in combat or not.

 

 

No, my confusion was how in two consecutive posts, Captain Powerhouse stated that 1) "the goal of the suppression was to allow players to attack without de-toggling the power", and 2) that the power would detoggle when the player attacks, two directly contradictory statements.

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Tigraine said:

 

No, my confusion was how in two consecutive posts, Captain Powerhouse stated that 1) "the goal of the suppression was to allow players to attack without de-toggling the power", and 2) that the power would detoggle when the player attacks, two directly contradictory statements.

In instance 1 "detoggle" means "you need to turn off the power or you can't attack" and in instance 2 "detoggle" means "the defense bonus goes away."

[Riverdusk]

On 3/13/2021 at 8:48 AM, ryuplaneswalker said:

Well I have no issue with Stealth Powers not stacking, my issue is that this seems to almost make In-set Stealth powers strictly worse than the Pool Power.

 

At the least I'd say the other stealth powers should get a shave off their endurance costs or stealth needs an endurance cost bump given how powerful it now is.  After all it is now doing in one toggle what my energy aura scrapper (as one example) needs two to accomplish (energy cloak + sprint with a celerity +stealth IO).  And if they do want to run sprint with their 55 foot stealth they can do it cheaper (they can slot the default slot with an endurance reducer whereas I have to slot the IO there), or they can run faster (with a run speed IO).

 

 

[Greycat]

9 hours ago, Terminal said:

 

Well, I did not know that and this is my first time hearing about it, so thank you. 

 

That said, maybe it should not be that way. 

 

Maybe I am still overthinking this and people will continue to just not take concealment at all. Maybe I just personally overvalue combat invisibility and assume everybody else will see and realize it is basically a must-have, especially if it is that easy to get. So maybe I am reacting to nothing.

 

Even in light of what you are saying, I still think the change is a little too much, and still for the reasons I stated earlier.

 

 

I think I kind of get what's being talked about here.

 

Initially, we had stealth (less stealth, but you can attack,) then invisibility (initially, much better invis that only a few mobs could see through, with the cost that you could *not* attack,) and phase shift (just dealing with the self affecting powers.)  A very few powersets - Illusion, especially, and later stalkers - had the "perk" that you could be invisible and attack.

 

Then you could attack from invis, but it would suppress. Which still had the "cost" that other ATs had to make that pool pick, in addition to a travel power. (This, IIRC, came after IOs and the +Stealth, which did open up other options, such as the SS+IO, or stealth +IO in a sprint/travel power... so there's still a bit of a cost there.)

 

And now the concern is we're down to one power pool pick for travel *and* full invisibility you can attack from, which kind of nullifies the "specialness" of those old sets - since they now have to make the same number of picks (since they need a travel power anyway, unless they go with temps.)  So what should be done with those powers - minimal END cost? Increasing the stealth radius further really has no use in PVE, at least. (And stalker Hide has no cost now, as I recall, given it's a critical part of their AT's inherent.) How should they - or should they - be buffed?

 

Granted, I hadn't thought of this myself 'til I saw this and started reading back a bit. Not sure what my opinion on it is. There's a fair bit of it built into Warshades, as well, so I do have a dog in the race, sort of.

 

(As far as not taking concealment - I take it not infrequently. It's fairly common on my PBs - flight +concealment with Incan queued up = great way to say hello to a void.)

[agentx5]

On 3/13/2021 at 8:26 AM, GM Arcanum said:

 Infiltration

• Grants a run and jump bonus similar to Ninja Run
• Grants out-of-combat stealth
  • 36ft in PvE, 389ft in PvP (the same values as Stealth before this patch)
• Grants 1.75% out of combat defence

 

But does this look (animations) and sound (whoosh-whoosh not a loud HUP! HUP! HOOAH! UUUGH!) like [Ninja Run]? 
Because that's what I loved most about Ninja Run, how quiet it was and how cool it looks when doing jumps and backflips and such.

 

Same thing goes for Beast Run... I've got a dragon character and while I could just use only fly on him, sometimes it's fun to have him run on all fours.

[Cidri]

This is how I think I will use flight in the future. This is from reading this thread, not from testing. Please correct me if I have misunderstood. If I have understood things right, these changes are 99% an improvement to me.

• Hover works much as before.
  • This would still be my default combat mode to save end and also because I don't like to move too fast indoors because collisions.
• Fly now works as the live version of Fly + Afterburner but with a lower end cost. [Edit: And no affects only self]
• Instead of using a toggle that switches between Fly and Hover, I now use a toggle that turns Fly on and off, while keeping Hover on constantly.
  • With Hover and Fly together, I get the maneuverability of Hover and the speed of the live version of Fly + Afterburner.
  • I also get Hover's defense bonus.
  • However, the end cost is pretty high. Does not really matter when traveling, as I am not using any other powers at that time.
  • This will be my default travel mode.
• With Fly, I also get the new version of Afterburner.
  • This ups my fly speed cap
  • This also increases my actual fly speed to that higher cap for a short time.
  • This does not cost me a power choice and requires/allows no slotting.
  • Because it is a toggle, the cooldown only begins once Afterburner shuts down, meaning I cannot make it perma.
  • Does the fly cap of Fly + Afterburner differ from that of Hover + Afterburner? From the patch notes I think it does.
  • On live I have a travel bind that first turns on Fly and then Afterburner with repeated applications.
    • That should still work, but Afterburner will soon wind down.
    • When it does, I still have the speed of the live version of Fly + Afterburner.
• Evasive Maneuvers is a separate power for extreme combat mobility.
  • Toons on live that have Afterburner will now have Evasive maneuvers and the Luck of the Gambler I pony there will still be there and work.
  • The end cost of Hover + Evasive Maneuvers is lower than that of Hover + Fly.
  • The fly speed of Hover + Evasive Maneuvers is lower than that of Hover + Fly.
  • Hover + Evasive Maneuvers has the flight control of the live Afterburner
    • [Is this different from the flight control of Hover? I never noticed any difference]
  • Protection against that most annoying, -Fly
  • Noncombat defense buff.
  • This power is a bit trickier to make a bind for.
    • I could use a bind that switched between Fly and Evasive Maneuvers (keeping Hover on constantly)
  • More likely I will use Evasive Maneuvers as an emergency power to manually turn on in missions with a lot of -Fly from opponents.
  • I could also simply respec it to something else. But i do not NEED to respec it - my builds will work as they are.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Cidri
addition

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Cidri said:

 

Also haven't actually tested yet, but it seems like the plan is:

 

Hover and Evasive Maneuvers are both always on.

I turn Fly on temporarily for travel and hit Afterburner if I have a long way to go.

[Cidri]

43 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

English wasn't invented. It just mugged other languages and took what words it thought looked interesting.

English wasn't invented - its made up of the dregs of the languages of the people that invaded Britain. 😄

But this ended almost 1,000 years ago, so it is all prescribed.

And then English mugged Latin. Except what little Latin remained from the roman occupation.

And then English spread like a germ across the world when Britain invaded other places - and robbed those countries of some of their words.

Yes, it is a mess. That's why we love it! 😄

[QuiJon]

11 hours ago, Infinitum said:

how will it increase long distance flight times?

Right now independence port is like 2.5 miles from top to bottom. That means if afterburner only makes it .9 miles before expiring that you could be left to travel up to 1.5 miles without it. Meanwhile someone using SS was already faster then your 87mph cap before this change had their speed boosted to 120mph full time. Giving it as a toggle rather then click helps to close that gap for long distances, which was the entire point of afterburner to begin with. Changing to a time limit, though maybe free, restores the disadvantage that existed between flight and other travel powers before there was an after burner in long distances.

[Wavicle]

Just now, QuiJon said:

Right now independence port is like 2.5 miles from top to bottom. That means if afterburner only makes it .9 miles before expiring that you could be left to travel up to 1.5 miles without it. Meanwhile someone using SS was already faster then your 87mph cap before this change had their speed boosted to 120mph full time. Giving it as a toggle rather then click helps to close that gap for long distances, which was the entire point of afterburner to begin with. Changing to a time limit, though maybe free, restores the disadvantage that existed between flight and other travel powers before there was an after burner in long distances.

But there’s a train from one end to the other, so why would you do that?

[Cidri]

If the new version of Afterburner didn't exist, the flight modifications would be almost purely beneficial. But because it exists but isn't perma, it seems to be a nerf. I actually think many flight aficionados would have a better gut feeling about the changes if the proposed new Afterburner wasn't there.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Cidri said:

If the new version of Afterburner didn't exist, the flight modifications would be almost purely beneficial. But because it exists but isn't perma, it seems to be a nerf. I actually think many flight aficionados would have a better gut feeling about the changes if the proposed new Afterburner wasn't there.

It doesn’t seem to be a nerf. Anyone claiming it is isn’t thinking clearly. Some people have a hang up that they believe they must be able to be at top speed permanently, but there’s no basis for that idea.

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Cidri said:

If the new version of Afterburner didn't exist, the flight modifications would be almost purely beneficial. But because it exists but isn't perma, it seems to be a nerf. I actually think many flight aficionados would have a better gut feeling about the changes if the proposed new Afterburner wasn't there.

That's my own reaction to it.

 

And there is no point in mentioning 'old' AB because it is out of context. Old AB exists in the old travel power setting. New AB exists in the new travel power setting. In a vacuum new AB transplanted to current game is a benefit. But when all the other pools got their own benefits as well AB just stinks.

 

But, yes, it's still better than what we have now which is why I have stated my piece in the early pages of the thread and have not brought it up again. And, again, the old paradigm that flight is 'better' could do with re-examining when all travel powers can pick a flight pack for 5k and get tridimensional movement for perpetuity but Flight has no equivalent to increase their speed since caps prevent it.

 

I'll insist that people pick their travel power for theme more than they do for min maxing. While not everyone roleplays most people still have a theme and stick to it. And from that point of view do we need to balance powers for the min maxing angle?

[Infinitum]

36 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

Right now independence port is like 2.5 miles from top to bottom. That means if afterburner only makes it .9 miles before expiring that you could be left to travel up to 1.5 miles without it. Meanwhile someone using SS was already faster then your 87mph cap before this change had their speed boosted to 120mph full time. Giving it as a toggle rather then click helps to close that gap for long distances, which was the entire point of afterburner to begin with. Changing to a time limit, though maybe free, restores the disadvantage that existed between flight and other travel powers before there was an after burner in long distances.

But it's a lot better than it was, it cant be perma because it wouldn't balance well. Eventually the others come back to earth.

33 minutes ago, Cidri said:

If the new version of Afterburner didn't exist, the flight modifications would be almost purely beneficial. But because it exists but isn't perma, it seems to be a nerf. I actually think many flight aficionados would have a better gut feeling about the changes if the proposed new Afterburner wasn't there.

Its not a nerf when you can go at live AB speeds with just fly - and then AB makes that faster in bursts.

 

90% of the time the .9 mi AB will give you will get you where you need to go.

 

In the shard is the one zone I can think of it may not, but fly still has the advantage there.

[Parabola]

38 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It doesn’t seem to be a nerf. Anyone claiming it is isn’t thinking clearly. Some people have a hang up that they believe they must be able to be at top speed permanently, but there’s no basis for that idea.

Quite. How anyone can be upset by these changes is utterly beyond me. They are giving us more speed and more utility for free. Clicking afterburner is totally optional, where on earth is the problem?

[Wavicle]

The argument seems to be this:

"If Fly isn't buffed Relative to the other travel powers, then it doesn't count."

 

o.O

[GM Lines]

2 hours ago, Cidri said:

• • Does the fly cap of Fly + Afterburner differ from that of Hover + Afterburner? From the patch notes I think it does.

 

Hover + Afterburner (without Fly) isn't an option. Afterburner is only clickable while Fly is active.

Hover + EM does have a different fly speed cap, though. Bopper shows the figures here: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/27130-illustrating-the-travel-power-changes-in-page-2/

 

2 hours ago, Cidri said:

• • On live I have a travel bind that first turns on Fly and then Afterburner with repeated applications.
    • That should still work, but Afterburner will soon wind down.
    • When it does, I still have the speed of the live version of Fly + Afterburner.

 

I just tested /bind T "powexec_toggleon Fly$$powexec_name Afterburner" and got this result. You hit T to reapply afterburner when it becomes available. Trying to work out if I can get Evasive Maneuvers into the mix as well. (Though in actuality, I'll probably just end up switching it on and leaving it on.)

 

Incidentally, my existing bind to toggle between Hover and Fly /bind T "powexec_name fly$$powexec_name hover" still switches between the two as it did in live (rather than toggling and detoggling both).

 

Quote

• I could use a bind that switched between Fly and Evasive Maneuvers (keeping Hover on constantly)

 

/bind T "Powexec_name fly$$powexec_name Evasive Maneuvers" does this. Keep in mind EM has a cooldown, so it doesn't quite work rapidly.

Edited March 15, 2021 by GM Lines

[Lobstar]

For what its worth, I just tested the Peacebringer White Dwarf power, White Dwarf Step, and it appears to not reflect the i27 teleport changes in the most recent beta patch.  

(also, any chance Dwarf form kheldians might get a combat teleport-ish power?  pretty please 😄 ?)

[Myrmidon]

9 hours ago, zenblack said:

 

I would take this argument seriously except for the fact that Celerity:Stealth exists, every character can slot it, and it's all you need.

For anyone that wasn’t aware previously, you may slot either a Run or Jump Stealth IO into Sprint (although, Celerity is also my favorite one to use😁).

[Macchiato]

20 minutes ago, parabola said:

Quite. How anyone can be upset by these changes is utterly beyond me. They are giving us more speed and more utility for free. Clicking afterburner is totally optional, where on earth is the problem?

 

I wish this would get pinned, honestly. The complaints boil down to one of two things:

1) Misunderstanding by having absolutely and literally no idea about the changes at all,

or 2) AFK cruisers complaining ceaselessly about having to click a button to reach beyond top speed now.

 

In both cases, I find it absolutely unacceptable and tired, when there are plenty of other things to examine, play around with, and discuss. I'm not exactly expecting a lot of comment about the GFX side of things with the travel powers, I've already said what I wanted to say and I think it's a well-known desire that we want more animations for the Concealment set, and to be able to deal with the Hover and Fly animations without having to juggle toggles.

 

I still really want that No/Min FX teleport option too. I still really want that No/Min FX teleport option too. I love the pop of light, but I have a lot of teleporter characters where just 'suddenly existing' after a teleport works out better for than flashy lights. Just saying.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Macchiato

[CaptainLupis]

On 3/13/2021 at 4:51 PM, Rathulfr said:

 

That's already a default keybind for me (/bind F12 "powexecname Hover$$powexecname Fly"), and I use it regularly.  I was hoping that I could discontinue that and just leave Hover+Fly on all the time.

 

(edit) Just realized that Hover and Fly are no longer mutually exclusive, so my existing macro will turn both on, instead.  So now I have to think of how to switch between them with another macro and/or bind... argh, my head hurts.

 

This has possibly been addressed already, as I haven't read through the full thread, but on test right now my bind still toggles betweem hover/fly and sj/cj as it always did, it doesn't turn both on, so you should be fine.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Macchiato said:

 

I still really want that No/Min FX teleport option too. I still really want that No/Min FX teleport option too. I love the pop of light, but I have a lot of teleporter characters that just 'suddenly existing' works out better for than flashy lights. Just saying.

Teleport skins would be great. Fiery teleport, freezing teleport, stone teleport, robotic teleport, etc

[agentx5]

While there's a ridiculous off-topic debate going on over English spelling...

Am I the only one that prefers the sounds and animations of Ninja Run over the standard gruntings?
(it sounds especially silly on female characters, IMHO
If this new [Infiltration] allows me to drop [Ninja Run] then I'm all for it.  Those backflips and lunges look really cool with dual blades.  Don't want to lose that...
 

[Macchiato]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Teleport skins would be great. Fiery teleport, freezing teleport, stone teleport, robotic teleport, etc

Absolutely, but that'd take some effort I'm not expecting. I'm literally just wanting 'none of it, thank you' - and it sucks because I've seen what it looks like, you can literally get that ... on the Warshade version of the teleports.

[Macchiato]

2 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

While there's a ridiculous off-topic debate going on over English spelling...

Am I the only one that prefers the sounds and animations of Ninja Run over the standard gruntings?
(it sounds especially silly on female characters, IMHO
If this new [Infiltration] allows me to drop [Ninja Run] then I'm all for it.  Those backflips and lunges look really cool with dual blades.  Don't want to lose that...
 

 

Infiltration does not use the animations but ... you realize you can literally just change your stance to Ninja run anyway without the power, right? It's on a costume-by-costume basis too, so any casual outfits you may have wouldn't be affected by hunching over, ready to ninja sprint everywhere.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Macchiato