Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (FLY POOL) - Build 2

[arthurh35353]

I think the thing that is confusing me is that they are conflating the increase from the Page 2 change to be the same/included into the Afterburner changes, but then also leaving part of the bonus speed from the old Afterburner in Evasive Maneuver.

 

I probably would have been far less confused and upset if they had just given fly (outside of PvP) the speed boost for Page 2 (up to 85ish with 2 slots?), then had the Afterburner toggle that could give you the boost up to their desired number (95 to 101mph?), though I would have preferred that the toggle not drop even if the actual top speed was a little lower.

[dangeraaron10]

I love the change to Afterburner and adding EvMa.  Hoverblasting never felt better with these changes.

 

I'd also like to say the old Afterburner was a feel bad power with you being unable to take most actions, where as the new version feels thematic in the sense that your avatar is pushing him/herself past their limits for an extra burst of speed.

 

With the recent changes it all feels good mechanically and thematically, and even aesthetically with the hover animation toggling.  While running an extra three toggles will be something to get used to, it's nice having the option to really build around almost the whole pool and becoming a master of flight.

 

But that applies to all the travel pool buffs recently.  These pools used to be a footnote in your build or taken only for a thematically lacking but statistically essential power.  Now these pools are almost to the point of being fully fledged tertiary powersets and I really like that.

[SwitchFade]

7 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I think the thing that is confusing me is that they are conflating the increase from the Page 2 change to be the same/included into the Afterburner changes, but then also leaving part of the bonus speed from the old Afterburner in Evasive Maneuver.

 

I probably would have been far less confused and upset if they had just given fly (outside of PvP) the speed boost for Page 2 (up to 85ish with 2 slots?), then had the Afterburner toggle that could give you the boost up to their desired number (95 to 101mph?), though I would have preferred that the toggle not drop even if the actual top speed was a little lower.

Apologies, you're mistaken. At no time did anyone state this. It's been explained numerous times how it works and, in fact, the description is very straightforward.

 

I understand you may be having trouble with the change; however, this does not mean it's complicated or was not explained thoroughly. It was.

 

To be very.... Very.... VERY clear,

 

Old fly = x

Old AB = y

New fly = a

New EM = b

New AB = c

 

X+y = a+b

A+b+c > x+y

 

The names don't matter, because if you use EM just like you used old AB the result is..... NO CHANGE.

 

At this point, I won't explain this gain, I'm sorry, but I do hope you stop confusing people and accusing people of things they haven't done.

 

 

[arthurh35353]

Quote

 Fly

• Now increases your fly speed cap by 50% while toggled on (from 58.6mph to 87.9mph)
  • This increased cap is the equivalent of fully slotting the old version of Afterburner
    • You now get this for free, without picking two more powers, and without old Afterburner's Only Affect Self component

This part here does in fact actually make it sound like this is the Afterburner being baked into the power, not that the changes to increase all Travel Pool Powers are being increased. I know you guys love to harp on the 'this is how the power works' but that doesn't match the verbiage of the power.

 

This is the part that confused me a lot and really drove me to a bad mental place.

[Bopper]

19 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I think the thing that is confusing me is that they are conflating the increase from the Page 2 change to be the same/included into the Afterburner changes, but then also leaving part of the bonus speed from the old Afterburner in Evasive Maneuver.

 

I probably would have been far less confused and upset if they had just given fly (outside of PvP) the speed boost for Page 2 (up to 85ish with 2 slots?), then had the Afterburner toggle that could give you the boost up to their desired number (95 to 101mph?), though I would have preferred that the toggle not drop even if the actual top speed was a little lower.

You're mistaken on what Afterburner does on Live. It does not increase Speed, it only raises the Speed Cap. Fly's speed has been reduced however, so if you're seeing slower speeds it's because Fly's speed was reduced. Fly was putting up insane speeds with no investment in an effort to make sure low level characters can hit the speed cap (58.63 mph) at any level. The fly speed has been changed so that with 3 SOs you can reach the speed cap without the use of other powers. Maybe that can be bumped up a little, that is what feedback would be for. 

 

As for what Afterburner does on Live, it increases the speed cap by 14.32 mph (so 58.63 mph now raises to 72.95 mph). To reach the Live speed cap of 87.95 mph, you need to increase the strength of Afterburner (via enhancements or fly speed strength buffs). Typically you're using 2 slots in AB to reach the 87.95 mph cap, otherwise you will have a cap that is less than the true cap.

 

What Fly does on Page 2, it takes the max possible buff Afterburner can provide and gives it to Fly automatically. So just turning Fly on is equivalent to turning on Fly and a maxed-out Afterburner on Live. Your speed cap is now 87.95 mph automatically with no investment of enhancements. HOWEVER, to reach that cap you still need to enhance Fly.

 

What is this impact? Instead of having to take two powers to reach the true fly speed cap, you can do it with one power. But just like all the other travel powers, you have to enhance it to reach the cap. As for "New Afterburner" which is a sub power of Fly and provides a 30s buff, that power increases your speed cap by 14.32 mph (not enhanceable) and is grants a fly speed strength buff of ~47%, which is like slotting an extra IO in all of your fly powers. That strength buff helps you reach the higher temporary speed cap without the need for additional enhancement investment.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

This part here does in fact actually make it sound like this is the Afterburner being baked into the power, not that the changes to increase all Travel Pool Powers are being increased. I know you guys love to harp on the 'this is how the power works' but that doesn't match the verbiage of the power.

 

This is the part that confused me a lot and really drove me to a bad mental place.

Check my last post for details. But the verbiage is perfect in describing what it's giving you. In one power you are getting everything what a maxed out Afterburner gave you, and you don't need to take 3 powers to get there.

[arthurh35353]

19 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Check my last post for details. But the verbiage is perfect in describing what it's giving you. In one power you are getting everything what a maxed out Afterburner gave you, and you don't need to take 3 powers to get there.

It's the fact that it states it as if this is just afterburner changes, when its a change to Fly (as part of all travel power changes) that emulates some of the ability of afterburner.

 

Or am I not explaining what I'm reading well?

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

At best, it's a hover blaster's wet dream.

 

You misspelled Scrapper. 😉

[siolfir]

31 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Check my last post for details. But the verbiage is perfect in describing what it's giving you. In one power you are getting everything what a maxed out Afterburner gave you, and you don't need to take 3 powers to get there.

 

Eh... not really? I apologize for getting into semantics but the phrasing used in the patch notes is what was being complained about, so it almost has to go into semantics with blanket statements like this. In this context, having seen the development of all of the back-and-forth and it almost exclusively being about flight speed, it's correct enough, but it's not factually correct for someone just coming into the discussion to get the right idea.

 

The verbiage in the patch notes is correct in that it states that "This increased cap is the equivalent of fully slotting the old version of Afterburner" (emphasis mine). 

 

But that was the only part of Afterburner that was migrated to Fly. The defense and flight control remain in Evasive Maneuvers, so if you want those parts as well you don't actually get everything that a maxed out Afterburner gave you. In addition, other benefits that it didn't have before (as old Afterburner) were added, like the flight speed boost, knockback resistance and immobilize protection.

 

New Fly isn't equivalent to old Fly + old Afterburner. It's faster than old Fly, because the flight speed cap is higher and old Fly just flatlined against the cap all the time.

 

Evasive Maneuvers isn't equivalent to old Afterburner. It doesn't adjust the flight speed cap, - it doesn't need to, because that's built into Fly now - but it does more things (+flyspeed, KB resistance, immob protection) and lets you do more things while it's active because it's no longer Only Affecting Self.

 

And the new Afterburner is behaving the way you would expect something named Afterburner to behave - a short-term, unsustainable boost to flight speed (and the flight speed cap).

Edited March 22, 2021 by siolfir
specifics on EvMa, link

[CaptainLupis]

4 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

It's the fact that it states it as if this is just afterburner changes, when its a change to Fly (as part of all travel power changes) that emulates some of the ability of afterburner.

 

Or am I not explaining what I'm reading well?

 I fear you are reading it as something which isn't there. From what you pasted earlier it is very clearly a change to the fly power itself. The first line is the change to the power fly. The second and third lines are explaining how you are not losing out due to the change, but are infact gaining.  I'm not really sure how it could be made any clearer as succinctly as it was.

Fly

• Now increases your fly speed cap by 50% while toggled on (from 58.6mph to 87.9mph)
  • This increased cap is the equivalent of fully slotting the old version of Afterburner
    • You now get this for free, without picking two more powers, and without old Afterburner's Only Affect Self component

[Bopper]

29 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

It's the fact that it states it as if this is just afterburner changes, when its a change to Fly (as part of all travel power changes) that emulates some of the ability of afterburner.

 

Or am I not explaining what I'm reading well?

You're not explaining it well.

 

Everything in the block you quoted are changes to Fly, and all of the sub-bullets are details on describing what the changes mean and is comparing to Live's version of Afterburner as a means to help clarify the impact of these changes. If it helps, I can break it down for just the speed.

 

LIVE: Base Speed Cap 58.63 mph, Max Speed Cap 87.95 mph

Fly:

• Base out of combat speed (Level 50): 16.97 mph (unenhanceable) + 29.32 mph (enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +46.28 mph
  • 1 SO: +56.05 mph
  • 3 SO: +74.13 mph
• Base out of combat speed (Level 4): 16.97 mph (unenhanceable) + 19.44 mph (enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +36.40 mph
  • 1 SO: +42.88 mph
  • 3 SOs: +54.87 mph

Afterburner:

• Base Fly Speed Cap increase (all levels): 14.32 mph (enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +14.32 mph (new cap of 72.95 mph)
  • 1 SO: +19.09 mph (new cap of 77.72 mph)
  • 3 SOs: +27.92 mph (new cap of 86.55 mph)

Page 2: Base Speed Cap 58.63 mph, Max Speed Cap 102.27 mph

Fly:

• Base out of combat speed (all levels): 32.25 mph (enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +32.25 mph
  • 1 SO: +42.99 mph
  • 3 SOs: +62.88 mph
• Base Fly Speed Cap increase (all levels): 29.32 mph (not enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +29.32 mph (new cap of 87.95 mph)

New Afterburner: up to 30s duration, 60s cooldown

• Base Fly Speed Cap increase (all levels): 14.32 mph (not enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +14.32 mph (new cap of 102.27 mph)

Evasive Maneuvers:

• Base speed (never suppresses) : 21.48 mph (enhanceable), can stack with other Fly powers
  • No Enhancements: +21.48 mph
  • 1 SO: +28.63 mph
  • 3 SOs: +41.88 mph

Edited March 22, 2021 by Bopper

[Bopper]

24 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I apologize for getting into semantics

My apologies, from context I hope people knew I was only talking about the speed component. You do not get the defense nor the only-affect-self effects ported over.

[siolfir]

Just now, Bopper said:

My apologies, from context I hope people knew I was only talking about the speed component. You do not get the defense nor the only-affect-self effects ported over.

I got that, but there have been enough people posting about how they were confused about why power A was becoming power B and what that means and how useful that is and whether or not new Fly is old Fly + old Afterburner, etc. in the other thread, so I wanted to try to provide an explanation in this thread to attempt to head it off here.

[arthurh35353]

16 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You're not explaining it well.

 

Everything in the block you quoted are changes to Fly, and all of the sub-bullets are details on describing what the changes mean and is comparing to Live's version of Afterburner as a means to help clarify the impact of these changes. If it helps, I can break it down for just the speed.

 

Quote

 

Fly

• Now increases your fly speed cap by 50% while toggled on (from 58.6mph to 87.9mph)
  • This increased cap is the equivalent of fully slotting the old version of Afterburner
    • You now get this for free, without picking two more powers, and without old Afterburner's Only Affect Self component

 

This would read much more clearly if it said:

• The power now has increased the fly speed cap by 50% (from 58.6 mph to 87.9mph) as part of Page 2's increase in travel power pools.
  • (As a note, this matches the old fully slotted afterburner which you had to pick as an additional power.)

 

 

[golstat2003]

33 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You're not explaining it well.

 

Everything in the block you quoted are changes to Fly, and all of the sub-bullets are details on describing what the changes mean and is comparing to Live's version of Afterburner as a means to help clarify the impact of these changes. If it helps, I can break it down for just the speed.

 

LIVE: Base Speed Cap 58.63 mph, Max Speed Cap 87.95 mph

Fly:

• Base out of combat speed (Level 50): 16.97 mph (unenhanceable) + 29.32 mph (enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +46.28 mph
  • 1 SO: +56.05 mph
  • 3 SO: +74.13 mph
• Base out of combat speed (Level 4): 16.97 mph (unenhanceable) + 19.44 mph (enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +36.40 mph
  • 1 SO: +42.88 mph
  • 3 SOs: +54.87 mph

Afterburner:

• Base Fly Speed Cap increase (all levels): 14.32 mph (enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +14.32 mph (new cap of 72.95 mph)
  • 1 SO: +19.09 mph (new cap of 77.72 mph)
  • 3 SOs: +27.92 mph (new cap of 86.55 mph)

Page 2: Base Speed Cap 58.63 mph, Max Speed Cap 102.27 mph

Fly:

• Base out of combat speed (all levels): 32.25 mph (enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +32.25 mph
  • 1 SO: +42.99 mph
  • 3 SOs: +62.88 mph
• Base Fly Speed Cap increase (all levels): 29.32 mph (not enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +29.32 mph (new cap of 87.95 mph)

New Afterburner: up to 30s duration, 60s cooldown

• Base Fly Speed Cap increase (all levels): 14.32 mph (not enhanceable)
  • No Enhancements: +14.32 mph (new cap of 102.27 mph)

Evasive Maneuvers:

• Base speed (never suppresses) : 21.48 mph (enhanceable), can stack with other Fly powers
  • No Enhancements: +21.48 mph
  • 1 SO: +28.63 mph
  • 3 SOs: +41.88 mph

THE ABOVE should have been the patch note. That's more clear AND CONCISE than what the patch note is.

Edited March 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[CaptainLupis]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

 

This would read much more clearly if it said:

• The power now has increased the fly speed cap by 50% (from 58.6 mph to 87.9mph) as part of Page 2's increase in travel power pools.
  • (As a note, this matches the old fully slotted afterburner which you had to pick as an additional power.)

 

 

It only increases the fly speed cap while the power fly is toggled on. It's quite an important distinction when, for example, you are just using hover.

[Jimmy]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

THE ABOVE should have been the patch note. That's more clear AND CONCISE than what the patch note is.

Yeah the patch notes have become somewhat bloated after many iterations and changes. Once the changes are settled I think it'll definitely be worth giving them a pass for clarity before this update hits live.

[ForeverLaxx]

6 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

Being an extra power choice is actually a problem for one of my characters, which has Flight and Teleport

Not to harken back to an older post, but this part confused me. If you already have Flight, Afterburner, and some assortment of Teleport powers, how does replacing the Afterburner pick with Evasive Maneuvers change the number of powers you're picking? Were you running Hover, Air Superiority, and Afterburner? Or Some combination with Group Fly that skipped the "real" Fly power altogether? These are the only scenarios I can think of where "being forced into Fly for Afterburner" would constitute an "extra" power pick.

Edited March 22, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[arthurh35353]

24 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Not to harken back to an older post, but this part confused me. If you already have Flight, Afterburner, and some assortment of Teleport powers, how does replacing the Afterburner pick with Evasive Maneuvers change the number of powers you're picking? Were you running Hover, Air Superiority, and Afterburner? Or Some combination with Group Fly that skipped the "real" Fly power altogether? These are the only scenarios I can think of where "being forced into Fly for Afterburner" would constitute an "extra" power pick.

I have dozens of characters. Not all of them have the same powers. My original alt had Teleport and Flight. 

Only hover has actually stayed the same other than those two powers from the choices I had.

Edited March 22, 2021 by arthurh35353

[ForeverLaxx]

40 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

My original alt had Teleport and Flight

Like, just the powers Flight and Teleport? So you get Afterburner for free and that's a "problem" for some reason?

[QuiJon]

On 3/22/2021 at 9:14 AM, dangeraaron10 said:

I'd also like to say the old Afterburner was a feel bad power with you being unable to take most actions, where as the new version feels thematic in the sense that your avatar is pushing him/herself past their limits for an extra burst of speed.

Doesnt feel thematic to me, it feels weak. Cant recall ever seeing Superman hear Lois' distress beacon from across the world and jump up into the air and boomingly break the sound barrier and then change over to that shot where he has to slow down over Europe to catch his breath. 

 

Here is my issue. AB was added to the game because it felt so much slower to travel when compared to the other powers. When the game launced we had Speed at 92mph cap, Jumping at 78mph cap, and Flight at 58 mph cap. AB boosted flight to about 88 mph but really figure somewhere around 85 with what most people invested in it. And even at that level Speedsters beat us to doors still and Leapers we maybe tied or just behind them maybe on the off chance we beat them slightly. 

 

Everyone seems to be approaching these changes though like because flight got a cap buff to 87mph that it is a gain in speed for flight. Personally i find speed relative. Lets say Speed cap was 60 and flight 30, everyone gets to the door slower, fliers just about the same slowness as ever. So same difference speedsters got boosted to 120mph flight to 87. That means the same 35mph of travel speed exists between speed and flight as did when the game launched in 2004, a speed that was determined to be unacceptable therefore afterburner was created in the first place. If you speed everyone up travel over all becomes faster, but the same downsides exist. Afterburner was taken because it overcame a problem with the balance of flight being to slow. But now we dont get full time afterburner. So what was a 10mph difference between flight+AB is now a 18 MPH difference....and 33mph when AB shuts down. 

 

Personally i think the breakdown should be more like Speed 120 all day. Jumping 102 all day with the 30sec thing, Flight i think should be 87mph all day, and AB should be a toggle, only effecting self, never shuts off with a 10second cool down when you shut it off, and it should cap flight a bit lower then jumping, like more around 98mph. I would rather get the extra 10mph all the time when traveling then lose 15mph after 30 second everytime i had to travel farther then .9 miles. 

[InvaderStych]

Wasn't Fly originally slower by design because it is the simplest method?  One can basically auto-pilot across a zone, carry enough altitude and you're effectively untouchable.  SS users have to take corners, navigate valleys, jump over every little pebble in the street, and so on.  SJ previously netted the fastest crossings for me, but still required user thought/input, and occasionally easy to snag yourself on something.  If we're talking about being in a Zone way above a Toon's given Pay Grade, then Fly is just about the safest method there is - with some zone exceptions, naturally.

 

If we balanced all of the travel powers to the same speed cap, then by the metric above (time to mission door), Flight would win every time simply via obstacle avoidance.

 

Which does pose the question; do we want travel powers to have matching speed caps, matching "end result when usability is factored (ie, balance all speeds so that all travel users arrive in similar times inclusive of obstacle avoidance), or do we want them to all have individual flavors: advantages and disadvantages included?

 

Genuinely asking. 🙂

[Doc_Scorpion]

8 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Which does pose the question; do we want travel powers to have matching speed caps, matching "end result when usability is factored (ie, balance all speeds so that all travel users arrive in similar times inclusive of obstacle avoidance), or do we want them to all have individual flavors: advantages and disadvantages included?

Individual flavors, hands down.  (So long as no individual power is uniquely disadvantaged other than those inherent to the power...  E.G. Teleport and SS.)

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, QuiJon said:

Doesnt feel thematic to me, it feels weak. Cant recall ever seeing Superman hear Lois' distress beacon from across the world and jump up into the air and boomingly break the sound barrier and then change over to that shot where he has to slow down over Europe to catch his breath. 

 

Here is my issue. AB was added to the game because it felt so much slower to travel when compared to the other powers. When the game launced we had Speed at 92mph cap, Jumping at 78mph cap, and Flight at 58 mph cap. AB boosted flight to about 88 mph but really figure somewhere around 85 with what most people invested in it. And even at that level Speedsters beat us to doors still and Leapers we maybe tied or just behind them maybe on the off chance we beat them slightly. 

 

Everyone seems to be approaching these changes though like because flight got a cap buff to 87mph that it is a gain in speed for flight. Personally i find speed relative. Lets say Speed cap was 60 and flight 30, everyone gets to the door slower, fliers just about the same slowness as ever. So same difference speedsters got boosted to 120mph flight to 87. That means the same 35mph of travel speed exists between speed and flight as did when the game launched in 2004, a speed that was determined to be unacceptable therefore afterburner was created in the first place. If you speed everyone up travel over all becomes faster, but the same downsides exist. Afterburner was taken because it overcame a problem with the balance of flight being to slow. But now we dont get full time afterburner. So what was a 10mph difference between flight+AB is now a 18 MPH difference....and 33mph when AB shuts down. 

 

Personally i think the breakdown should be more like Speed 120 all day. Jumping 102 all day with the 30sec thing, Flight i think should be 87mph all day, and AB should be a toggle, only effecting self, never shuts off with a 10second cool down when you shut it off, and it should cap flight a bit lower then jumping, like more around 98mph. I would rather get the extra 10mph all the time when traveling then lose 15mph after 30 second everytime i had to travel farther then .9 miles. 

 

There are two things to consider here:

 

- First is that comparing the game with mechanical decisions regarding gameplay to the comic book demi god that hears a gunshot from the moon and travels down to earth in time to stop the bullet is always going to end in tears. Compare rather to more normal power levels and it's not unheard of that top speeds can be breached via adrenaline and need but there is a reason why 'top speeds' are called top speeds and not 'unhurriedly moving along'. If a motor only goes up to 100 kph it's not because there is a big need to stop a bullet that it suddenly goes up to 500kph. But there might be a turbo function (dare i say afterburner?) that allows to momentarily redline this.

 

- Second is that I'm hearing a lot about feels and not enough about testing. There were people who actually tested the travel powers and reported their findings: in a complete straight line with absolutely nothing in the way and over a long enough distance that 30 seconds was not enough to reach then Fly reached the door 20 seconds after SS. In places with detours (if I recall correctly they tested in Grandville or something?) and shorter distances Fly outpaced the others.

 

So we need less spreadsheet navel gazing and more 'I went to X map, tested, and Fly is unacceptably slow according to these numbers'.

 

Which, per testing done, is not the case. Most times we are in 30 second distance of a mission, more often there will be detours.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Sovera

[arthurh35353]

Wouldn't it be fair to test short, medium and long range options?

I mean, short range you sometimes have things where it may not be technically faster to teleport, but most people just turn on Run and Sprint of choice to go a couple hundred feet in a congested area while Flight and SJ just hopped over the apartment building in Praetoria? And SS cursed as it was a bit too tight to really leverage its speed?

 

Middle ground in most zones at about a mile of travel from SG portals, SS and SJ are usually there before some people have even zoned in while flight and TP are getting there.

 

Then you have the far end in a long range area with few ground areas where SS is going "TG I bought a raptor pack for the Shadow Shadow" and SJ is going "I can make it with some effort, but I hope I don't miss and have to start over" and Fly is cruising along at max speed, low issues and Teleport can get there fastest, but if you aren't slotted well can actually run out of endurance.