Is there any way to make teams less boring?

[Apparition]

50 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Cap teams at 5 outside of Incarnate Trials!  WOO!

 

Absolutely not.  The team size cap of eight is one of the reasons why I play City of Heroes instead of other MMOGs.

[honoroit]

15 hours ago, Snarky said:

I want to be killed by fish monsters while i try to wield a rusty sword, while wearing moldy armor. 

 

Yes! Don't give up on this dream, skeleton! 

 

The solution is forced pvp. Only place you can hide is in an instance. 

 

 

OPEN PVP,

ALLCAPS, FORCED FLAG,

OPEN PVP,

IN ATLAS PARK AND ALL PARAGON CITY. 

 

(pls note honoroit does not support the MAGA-loon seditionist through use of all caps, quite the opposite) 

[Darmian]

4 minutes ago, honoroit said:

The solution is forced pvp. Only place you can hide is in an instance. 

ah sarcasm.

[cranebump]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

Absolutely not.  The team size cap of eight is one of the reasons why I play City of Heroes instead of other MMOGs.

 

Is that a personal preference or a mechanical one? I ask because I find smaller teams often to be more engaging because every members counts. My assumption is that most teams of 8 aren't formed for anything other than maximizing XP return.  You grab 8 people, and half of them are superfluous, because player A,B,C & D are bumrushing the joint, and only want you there to bump up the mobs (sometimes it's only players A & B). It is then not so much super team as "Captain Beatdown and the Cyphers."

[Apparition]

7 minutes ago, cranebump said:

 

Is that a personal preference or a mechanical one? I ask because I find smaller teams often to be more engaging because every members counts. My assumption is that most teams of 8 aren't formed for anything other than maximizing XP return.  You grab 8 people, and half of them are superfluous, because player A,B,C & D are bumrushing the joint, and only want you there to bump up the mobs (sometimes it's only players A & B). It is then not so much super team as "Captain Beatdown and the Cyphers."

 

The mechanics of teaming doesn't matter.  It's that I have seven other friends on that I would like to play with, and we would all like to play together without having to split into multiple teams.  Sure, none of us are necessary on the team, but no one is necessary on any team, regardless of team size.  That's part of the charm of City of Heroes.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Apparition

[Carnifax]

8 minutes ago, cranebump said:

 

Is that a personal preference or a mechanical one? I ask because I find smaller teams often to be more engaging because every members counts. My assumption is that most teams of 8 aren't formed for anything other than maximizing XP return.  You grab 8 people, and half of them are superfluous, because player A,B,C & D are bumrushing the joint, and only want you there to bump up the mobs (sometimes it's only players A & B). It is then not so much super team as "Captain Beatdown and the Cyphers."

 

As a Team Leader it's trivial to just not invite anyone once you have 4 others if that's your preference. Why would you want to widdle in everyone elses cornflakes and force this on everyone? 

[Grouchybeast]

20 hours ago, RogueWolf said:

To this other tangent that it's only about IOs... no it's not. When IOs came out, I don't remember it being this bad. But it was the beginning of the downhill roll. When AE turned the game into City of Farmers, that was a huge step toward the silly state teams are in now.

 

The situation with IOs on HC is very different to what is was on live.

 

Freely available converters, cheap catalysts, selling packs for inf, dropping PVP recipes in normal content, bucketing IOs and recipes, bucketing normal and Attuned IOs, giving normal rewards in AE, removing the AE double inf -- everything the HC devs have done has been tilted towards increasing IO supply and holding down inflation.  Adding a +3% global def PVP unique used to require 3 billion inf and the patience to wait for one to come up for sale off-market.  Now you can pay for one with the merits from running the Freaklympics arc, or roll your own with converters and a cheap PVP recipe drop.

[RogueWolf]

Holy smokes this topic took off. I was busy irl all evening so I didn't know. Lots to read through when I get a chance. Glad I started a conversation.

[Machariel]

13 hours ago, Xenosone said:

You could always pvp your team. Be a controller and put yhat aoe immob on autocast, gale as well.

Be the tank with zero defensive powers.

Rp instead of fight. 

There is so many things to do in City of 

for this route I highly recommend gravity control as its AoE immob lacks knockback protection and wormhole and dimension shift are highly effective ways to pvp your (soon-to-be-former) teammates 😂

Edited March 25, 2021 by Machariel
autocorrect added an apostrophe -_-

[Templarstone]

One of the best things of CoX is you can create your own challenge.  If you think it's too easy then do something to increase that.  Make your own teams and cap at 5 people or less.  You have that choice.  

 

Also if you are having trouble finding a challenge then try this post 

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/26511-ae-801-incarnate-team-missions/?tab=comments#comment-330791

Edited March 25, 2021 by Templarstone

[cranebump]

50 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

 

As a Team Leader it's trivial to just not invite anyone once you have 4 others if that's your preference. Why would you want to widdle in everyone elses cornflakes and force this on everyone? 

 

Well, that's not what I was trying to do. I wasn't saying I wanted a mandatory cap. On the subject of smaller teams, all I personally said was, "I'm in."  What I was trying to figure out with my question up there was whether the preference for running 8 had any other motivation other than maxing out return. I've made it pretty clear I don't have an issue with how others play, and was not trying to imply otherwise.

 

As for my other comment: Recognizing that the current game does feature many teams that are such in name only (i.e., 2-3 soloists giving the beatdown and a bunch of XP-bumping fillers) isn't taking a shot at anything. It's just recognizing an aspect of play that is , oh, we'll say somewhat prevalent, and part of the topic about what is considered a "boring" team.

 

Full disclosure: On those types of teams, I'm usually one of the "filler" guys (or slightly above, depending on what I'm running), since I don't have anything close to a completely maxed-out toon. When Johnny Beatdown does their beatup thing, I just tag along and do what I can, because these are almost always TF's, and I'm just there for the merits. No biggy. It's a legit mode of play. But it would get pretty old if that's all there was. The issue, of course, is that to ensure it's not all there is, you can't just hop on any PuG. Well, above a certain level, I guess. You have to invoke some sort of restrictions, or fiddle with the switches, or both. 

 

Or play in "near classic" mode.:-)

Edited March 25, 2021 by cranebump

[cranebump]

52 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

The mechanics of teaming doesn't matter.  It's that I have seven other friends on that I would like to play with, and we would all like to play together without having to split into multiple teams.  Sure, none of us are necessary on the team, but no one is necessary on any team, regardless of team size.  That's part of the charm of City of Heroes.

I gotcha. Thanks for elaborating.

[Carnifax]

6 minutes ago, cranebump said:

 

Well, that's not what I was trying to do. I wasn't saying I wanted a mandatory cap. On the subject of smaller teams, all I personally said was, "I'm in."  What I was trying to figure out with my question up there was whether the preference for running 8 had any other motivation other than maxing out return. I've made it pretty clear I don't have an issue with how others play, and was not trying to imply otherwise.

Oooops, sorry! I totally misread that so. My apologies!

 

Why run 8? A lot of mine are SG teams so it just happens there are 8 of us. If I'm leading a PuG I use a "soft-cap" of 5. In other words once we hit 5 I'll stop recruiting. But if someone comes along 5 mins later and says "Any room left" I'll add them no bother. Reunion is a low pop server so I know how hard it can be get a team. 

 

By the same token often our SG teams are 3/4/5. Hell 4 of us ran TinPlex quite happily last week (in a silly-short time). I even ended up with two Master Of badges from it. 

 

We have a weekly "Bring out yer Dead"* team in the SG I'm in and this week we ended up with 9 (doing the new Blueside Vash arc). So we split into 5 & 4 and had a ball running them (well I cried a lot, but that was because I remembered why I'd shelved that level 27 Rad/Elec Brute in the first place). 

 

*(Bring out yer Dead is where you bring along a character you haven't played and kind of abandoned. That Rad/Elec was unplayed for 605 days. I totally understand why)

[CFIndustries]

For those looking for limitations and oldschool gameplay, isn't there a server out there that caters to that?

 

What is Rebirth's restrictions? I really am not an expert on all the variant servers honestly, but I suspect some in this thread might be.

 

And some of these alternative servers have lower populations so maybe their Market is expensive, forcing your hand on builds?

 

Just a thought…

[Templarstone]

" Forming 5 player team looking for 3 level 50+'s and one under level sidekick  for us to keep an eye on to run +4/8 PI non council only missions"

 

 When you make the team you set the conditions.   Never know you may find a handful of others who enjoy the same thing as you and make some friends to do that type of play often with.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Templarstone

[Rishidian]

I keep seeing this and it bothers me a little.

 

**Nobody is necessary on a team.**

 

This is untrue.  The only person necessary on a team is the 2nd person.  If it's only 1 person, then it's soloing.  More than 1 person makes a team.  Who, or what, that 2nd person is, is irrelevant, which goes the same for the 1st person.  Only that they are there is what matters to a team.

 

Also, any change to the game will trigger someone to stop playing.  Even no change will do it.  

[cranebump]

23 minutes ago, Rishidian said:

Also, any change to the game will trigger someone to stop playing.  Even no change will do it.  

 

Not sure what is meant by this?

 

Agree with the first statement.  As far as making teams more interesting, of the many suggestions offered, I really like the idea of "Star Configuration." You announce you're running SF Mishes, Star Fig" and do it enough times, and maybe it become a regular and viable option. Just have to get the word out that a "Star" team consists of 5 ppl.

[Grindingsucks]

10 minutes ago, Rishidian said:

I keep seeing this and it bothers me a little.

 

**Nobody is necessary on a team.**

 

This is untrue.  The only person necessary on a team is the 2nd person.  If it's only 1 person, then it's soloing.  More than 1 person makes a team.  Who, or what, that 2nd person is, is irrelevant, which goes the same for the 1st person.  Only that they are there is what matters to a team.

 

Also, any change to the game will trigger someone to stop playing.  Even no change will do it.  

 

Sure.  I think maybe some clarification is in order about what some of us mean when we use that phrase.

 

Some of us are looking for RP-oriented team-based combat that emulates what we see in the comics.  In the comics, hero teams practice and train together (think of the X-men's Danger Room, etc.) and develop specific tactics for combatting foes.  Each member of the team brings something unique to it, that is their particular talent or powerset, that effectively helps the team hang together and perform effectively in the face of dire threats.  Any team member that has not fully learned how to control and best apply their powerset is a weak link the team roster.

 

Some of us want team-based combat to be interesting and dynamic and to provide leverage for drama/story-based play focused around learning said teamwork and developing tactics.  We view team-based play in CoX as being potentially more complex, interesting, and exciting than a gang of 8 random, over-tuned AT's in a PUG, that each surge across the map randomly hammering power buttons, with little to no strategy or interaction, while still being able to clear the mission in an astonishingly short time, even at +4/8.  We want tankers to feel like they are the reliable bedrock- that anchor that draws aggro and bravely stands in the center of the enemy, weathering a hail of blows so that the controller can immobilize the foe or hobble them, or turn them against each other.  We want to wait for the Stalker to scout ahead and provide valuable intelligence on enemy positions, then relay this to the team leader (who is perhaps the scrapper or blaster with good charisma, tactical planning skills, and leadership pool powers- or another AT similarly inclined) who may decide a plan of attack, or task that Stalker with infiltrating and assassinating a certain sentry, group of sentries, or enemy boss.

 

This is not really an example of something that is "wrong" or "broken" with the game (although many of us might- rightly, I think- argue that power creep has rendered team play less interesting at higher levels) but, rather, a kind of play preference.  In my view, the thing to do to address this issue is to find other, like-minded people to enjoy that kind of play.  I have, in the past, felt like such an outlier that it seemed pointless to pursue such a group, thinking that there are not enough members of the player base with the same view of team play, to make a group of this kind.

 

This topic is beginning to make me feel like that might not be true, after all.  Perhaps, those few of us who want to experience something deeper during team play might be able to band together and create the very thing that we desire.

 

I, for one, certainly hope this will prove to be the case.  🙂🙏

[Herotu]

On 3/23/2021 at 11:02 PM, RogueWolf said:

IMHO, game balance is fine up through the 30s (when everyone is at most level 35), and even over that level on up when soloing, or until the team gets to like 5 people. Then it all breaks down and nothing is a challenge anymore even at +4x8 except for a tiny handful of enemies like Vanguard or IDF.

 

The thing is... I have no idea how to fix that. I'm sure a lot of people reading this are scoffing and don't even want to. But highly doubt I'm alone in thinking that teams are boring and we wish there was more opportunity for SOME level of challenge in missions from any given random PuG without having to host our own flashback missions with the settings cranked up. Because that's just not an option every time you want to play.

 

Voice comms is my usual response to questions about making things less boring and interacting with other players, though I haven't done much of it in this particular game (which is to my shame because the scope for doing the sort of things I like, such as community events, coordinated costumes or whatnot, is especially high in this game).

 

I think Boss fights especially are criminally boring. Especially really tough end boss. These could be more interesting with the introduction of minion spawns - just things to give the controllers a good time - inconveniences that might topple the group - like someone tickling you when you're trying to concentrate on something.

On another note, I've got no idea about how the engine may or may not handle randomness in terms of spawns, but I can't remember ever seeing any. Randomness, unpredictability could add SOME interest.

Thirdly, a Nemesis system was always something debated by communities back in the day - this random chappy cropping up occasionally (randomness required, sadly) might make things more interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

[HelBlaiz]

26 minutes ago, cranebump said:

 

Not sure what is meant by this?

 

Agree with the first statement.  As far as making teams more interesting, of the many suggestions offered, I really like the idea of "Star Configuration." You announce you're running SF Mishes, Star Fig" and do it enough times, and maybe it become a regular and viable option. Just have to get the word out that a "Star" team consists of 5 ppl.

I think they mean there are people who would either get bored or discouraged if the game stopped updating and stop logging in because of it. And that constant changes to keep those folks engaged might turn off anyone who wants the game to remain how they found it, so to speak. Aka, you can't please everyone.

[Luminara]

36 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Not sure what is meant by this?

 

Stagnation engenders ennui.

[Rishidian]

4 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

I think they mean there are people who would either get bored or discouraged if the game stopped updating and stop logging in because of it. And that constant changes to keep those folks engaged might turn off anyone who wants the game to remain how they found it, so to speak. Aka, you can't please everyone.

Thanks for asking.  Somethings I write make sense to me, but not to others.  Y'all don't think like me - and that's a good thing.

 

What I meant was players will quit if things are changed, and other players will quit if they aren't changed.  HelBlaiz nailed it (and should probably have his head examined for thinking like me).  I get a bit tired of all the threats of people quitting for this reason or that.  Ya can't make everyone happy, nor can you make the majority happy.  We have to settle for the few. 

 

Also, people tend to complain about things they don't like, but are silent about the things they do like.  It makes getting an idea about a new concept, idea, AT, zone, etc. hard to gage in terms of acceptance.  It's like juggling a feather, a bowling ball, and a red hot ember.  And I feel for the Devs who have to work with this.

[Apparition]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Stagnation engenders ennui.

Yep.  I know over a dozen people that stopped playing Homecoming over the past year and a half due to the lack of new endgame content.  Only so many times that you can do MLTFs, LRSFs, Dr. Kahn TFs, BAF Trials, Underground Trials, etc., and not get bored.

 

 I am sure that once new endgame content is added to Homecoming, they will be back.

[Darmian]

28 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Yep.  I know over a dozen people that stopped playing Homecoming over the past year and a half due to the lack of new endgame content.  Only so many times that you can do MLTFs, LRSFs, Dr. Kahn TFs, BAF Trials, Underground Trials, etc., and not get bored.

 

 I am sure that once new endgame content is added to Homecoming, they will be back.

Did they not play all the other content?

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, Grindingsucks said:

Some of us want team-based combat to be interesting and dynamic and to provide leverage for drama/story-based play focused around learning said teamwork and developing tactics.  We view team-based play in CoX as being potentially more complex, interesting, and exciting than a gang of 8 random, over-tuned AT's in a PUG, that each surge across the map randomly hammering power buttons, with little to no strategy or interaction, while still being able to clear the mission in an astonishingly short time, even at +4/8.  We want tankers to feel like they are the reliable bedrock- that anchor that draws aggro and bravely stands in the center of the enemy, weathering a hail of blows so that the controller can immobilize the foe or hobble them, or turn them against each other.  We want to wait for the Stalker to scout ahead and provide valuable intelligence on enemy positions, then relay this to the team leader (who is perhaps the scrapper or blaster with good charisma, tactical planning skills, and leadership pool powers- or another AT similarly inclined) who may decide a plan of attack, or task that Stalker with infiltrating and assassinating a certain sentry, group of sentries, or enemy boss.

Now wouldn't that be great?