Is there any way to make teams less boring?

[RogueWolf]

I'm often stunned after a TF is over and everyone else says things like "great job" "good run" "great team" and I'm like... it was??? That was boring AF. How do you know the team was good when no one needed each other? Four of you kinda plowed through it by yourselves. We barely said anything to each other the whole time because no one felt the need to communicate. All I did was follow behind the pack as you ran off like toddlers on a sugar high and occasionally dropped a buff to feel like I was doing something. I never hit anything because it was dead before my attack animation was over. But I guess that really is some folks' idea of fun?  

 

These things go through my head on a regular basis, but I bite my tongue because I don't want to be "that guy." 

 

IO sets are a double edged sword. The whole point of the game is to feel like superheroes. We all get that. It's great being able to solo EBs. But when so many people have figured out these insane min-maxed, soft-capped builds, by the time you're, say, mid-30s... everyone is a brute. Everyone can dish out and defend against so much psycho damage that the only purpose of a tank is to herd critters into nice little clusters to make them even easier to sweep away, and you don't really need support toons anymore. You don't truly appreciate how boring a TF is until you play a controller. The Imperious TF is about the only exception. But not always. Even then someone can probably go AFK for awhile and no one would notice (I speak from experience).

 

IMHO, game balance is fine up through the 30s (when everyone is at most level 35), and even over that level on up when soloing, or until the team gets to like 5 people. Then it all breaks down and nothing is a challenge anymore even at +4x8 except for a tiny handful of enemies like Vanguard or IDF.

 

The thing is... I have no idea how to fix that. I'm sure a lot of people reading this are scoffing and don't even want to. But highly doubt I'm alone in thinking that teams are boring and we wish there was more opportunity for SOME level of challenge in missions from any given random PuG without having to host our own flashback missions with the settings cranked up. Because that's just not an option every time you want to play.

 

[Greycat]

RP.

 

If you're flying through missions, you're probably also talking, reacting and having fun. If you're struggling, you're reacting to *that* with others, too.

 

Mechanically? *shrug* I don't worry about uberbuilds, so...

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

We

 

You're part of that.

 

No communication?  Speak up.

 

Feeling useless?  Speak up.

 

Bored?  Speak up.

 

IOs don't prevent you, or anyone on your team, from typing, or speaking into a microphone.  If you're dissatisfied with anything on a team, speak up.  That's the purpose of teams, to provide a social experience.

[Bill Z Bubba]

34 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

How do you know the team was good when no one needed each other?

 

You know how I know I've been successful in my career in IT? When no one ever has to call me.

 

Same is true here. You want to liven up the party? Be the change you want to see.

[The_Warpact]

I have dedicated group of friends from all over the country and we primarily team with each other.

Don't like pugs or the strangers attitude? Make friends, start an SG, play that way.

 

[Snarky]

38 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

 We barely said anything to each other the whole time because no one felt the need to communicate. All I did was follow behind the pack as you ran off like toddlers on a sugar high and occasionally dropped a buff to feel like I was doing something.

 

i continue (and have since i started CoH) run Brutes exactly for this purpose.  you want to help?  trust me, i notice.  thanks.  you want to doorsit.  have a jam! lol.

[Sovera]

36 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

I'm often stunned after a TF is over and everyone else says things like "great job" "good run" "great team" and I'm like... it was??? That was boring AF. How do you know the team was good when no one needed each other? Four of you kinda plowed through it by yourselves. We barely said anything to each other the whole time because no one felt the need to communicate. All I did was follow behind the pack as you ran off like toddlers on a sugar high and occasionally dropped a buff to feel like I was doing something. I never hit anything because it was dead before my attack animation was over. But I guess that really is some folks' idea of fun?  

 

These things go through my head on a regular basis, but I bite my tongue because I don't want to be "that guy." 

 

IO sets are a double edged sword. The whole point of the game is to feel like superheroes. We all get that. It's great being able to solo EBs. But when so many people have figured out these insane min-maxed, soft-capped builds, by the time you're, say, mid-30s... everyone is a brute. Everyone can dish out and defend against so much psycho damage that the only purpose of a tank is to herd critters into nice little clusters to make them even easier to sweep away, and you don't really need support toons anymore. You don't truly appreciate how boring a TF is until you play a controller. The Imperious TF is about the only exception. But not always. Even then someone can probably go AFK for awhile and no one would notice (I speak from experience).

 

IMHO, game balance is fine up through the 30s (when everyone is at most level 35), and even over that level on up when soloing, or until the team gets to like 5 people. Then it all breaks down and nothing is a challenge anymore even at +4x8 except for a tiny handful of enemies like Vanguard or IDF.

 

The thing is... I have no idea how to fix that. I'm sure a lot of people reading this are scoffing and don't even want to. But highly doubt I'm alone in thinking that teams are boring and we wish there was more opportunity for SOME level of challenge in missions from any given random PuG without having to host our own flashback missions with the settings cranked up. Because that's just not an option every time you want to play.

 

 

I solo and duo stuff where I can because full teams just steam roll. But, I'm one of the 'four' mentioned above. So even if you did come and join me you'd feel the same. You'd 'help' by throwing buffs but have a Tanker who shrugs off damage and nearly two shots packs when BU is up.

 

The solution is lifting the difficulty. Form a team and mention you'll be running it at +2 (if during leveling).

 

That said I don't know what to tell you. Since when was CoH actually hard? Before IOs we'd run around in +4x8 teams melting the map. Nothing much has changed.

[Carnifax]

I've said it many times, on an 8 man everyone is around 3/8s unneeded. 

 

Try running +4x8 with a 5 man instead, or fewer. You can start TFs etc with as many players as you like now. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

How about an option where you can fill the remainder of your team with Rikti Monkeys.  And if any of them die, auto team wipe.

[TemporalVileTerror]

I would ABSOLUTELY play that game mode, @Yomo Kimyata!

No joke.

Sounds interesting!

[MTeague]

I mean, some of the "Good team" "nice job" are basically people just being polite.  And hey. There's a lot to be said for civility.

Some are people who mean "quick efficent kills and I got my merits in the amount of time I wanted to".

 

But I definitely find teams a lot more fun when there's banter going on in chat. I don't care if it's RP or completely breaking 4th wall. I do tend to solo 50-60% of the time though.  I'm one of those people who actually likes reading mission text, even if I could probably recite it from memory.  And teams never wait for that. 

 

[Outrider_01]

Make it more fun

 

Slot knockback 👍

 

Last Sunday someone asked if Battleaxe was KD or KU.  I said slot KB and get the best of both worlds.  10 mins later @Rasian or something like a dry grape sends a tell and says to the effect "just because its a game from 2004 doesn't mean you can use behavior like its 2004" the blocked me like a coward.  Like bro 🤔, KB ain't griefing and logged my other account to tell him that, no response so called out to Excelsior global and started some small drama.  Sorry guys but it was fun.

 

Anyway, start a TF and roll a melee with knockback in the singles.  Google Thor vs Hulk fight, that kind of hilarity of flying goons.  Some guy who rhymes with Potato thought it was grieving as well and says it it isn't funny to troll groups.  Like bro 🤔, it's single target self entertainment so feel free to join in.  Mr Potato also pulled some crap about watch list on discord and harmless threats about not getting groups from him; like I don't use discord cause I hate the sound of my voice and the guy is only limiting himself if he doesn't want to have fun with me.

 

tl;dr - Knock back on single target attacks 👍.  Start some harmless drama.

[gamingglen]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

How about an option where you can fill the remainder of your team with Rikti Monkeys.  And if any of them die, auto team wipe.

 

Can I play as one of the monkeys?  😄  🐒   I promise not to run directly at an enemy group first thing... really... I mean it... wait.. look there.. people, maybe they have bananas... 

 

I feel you OP, I've had the same issue. I'm not much of a conversationalist (which is why I'd make a great monkey 😉 ) but I have interjected some silly messages at times. Sometimes the team responds, sometimes they don't. 

[Machariel]

I share many of your concerns and have previously written about my distaste for rolling Judgement powers, and my belief that certain character utilities like say, tanking and aggro management and control powers are basically pointless - in the worst case literally a waste of animation time - when a decked out team runs into a +4x8 mob.  It's worth pointing out that a lot of the team's AoE damage potential is also wasted if everyone dumps their powers at once as the mobs get way overkilled.

 

There's a few obvious things you could do, like increase the difficulty (if not already running at +4x8) or running with a smaller team size (I think 4-6 is about the sweet spot), as well as some ideas that are historically unpopular like voluntarily unslotting your Incarnate powers, having everyone use a budget build, etc.  I personally find these unsatisfying as I like to build the strongest character I can, usually.

 

Assuming you're already running at +4x8 and have enough like-minded friends to fill a full team and don't want to exclude anyone, another thing you could do is simply split the team up into two groups of 4 and 4 and divide and conquer.  This is actually one of my favorite things to do as it massively cuts down on overkill and slows down the fights long enough for things like control or tanking to matter. 

 

If you still want to play in a big blob, you could have one or two players running a spawn ahead to pre-group and pull the mobs in.  Maybe the tanker doesn't need to be there to keep their teammates alive, but they're still better at herding and can operate safely on their own, and then when the team catches up the controller mezzes them causing their aggro to fall off and the tanker can move to the next group. 

 

I got this far before realizing that you're writing from the perspective of maybe a lower level character without IOs on a team where half the members clearly do not need the other half or, indeed, anyone else on the team at all.  In that case... my best recommendation is to form a team yourself and advertise it as something like "All/Low Levels Welcome" or even "Preferred" as the gap between a level 25 character on SOs and a level 50 character w/IOs exemplared down to level 25 is really significant.  Clear communication up front is probably the best way to handle something like this and if you've made this clear you're well within your rights to send someone a /tell along the lines of "hey, great build but there's not much left for the rest of the team to do."

 

In that case you may also be best off letting the player go off and do their own thing while you lead the team a totally different path down the map.  Following in their wake definitely is boring, but... you don't have to do it.

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

How about an option where you can fill the remainder of your team with Rikti Monkeys.  And if any of them die, auto team wipe.

That's not entirely unlike some experiences having Fusionette follow my teams around back on live.   "Wha...come on, girl!  Why'd you have to go and aggro another bunc...wait, wait! Three mobs? Arrgh!  Can I please shoot her already?"

 

I notice she's tamer nowadays.  (Still having something of that problem with Lady Jane in the Lost cure arc, though)

[Techwright]

39 minutes ago, gamingglen said:

 

Can I play as one of the monkeys?  😄  🐒   I promise not to run directly at an enemy group first thing... really... I mean it... wait.. look there.. people, maybe they have bananas... 

 

Keep using Secondary Mutation enough, and you'll get your chance.

[Andreah]

3 hours ago, RogueWolf said:

I'm often stunned after a TF is over and everyone else says things like "great job" "good run" "great team" and I'm like... it was???

I say this most of the time before I leave a team. Partly out of civility, but mostly so when the team was working smoothly together, whether we were fast, slow, or struggling. If we were killing efficiently and speedily, I'll mention that specifically too -- "Great team, nice steamroll".

 

If I was not enjoying the social element, or if the team couldn't get their playstyle to anywhere coherent, I'll leave with a polite "Thanks for the team, have fun!" 

 

Killspeed is most always a desire on a PUG, but Fun is required.

[Coyote]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

How about an option where you can fill the remainder of your team with Rikti Monkeys.  And if any of them die, auto team wipe.

 

Be more realistic... and also more unfair. Use Fusionettes, instead 😉

[MTeague]

19 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Be more realistic... and also more unfair. Use Fusionettes, instead 😉

Now Fusionette is *definitely* a blaster who took Provoke.

[Parabola]

9 hours ago, RogueWolf said:

I'm often stunned after a TF is over and everyone else says things like "great job" "good run" "great team" and I'm like... it was??? That was boring AF. How do you know the team was good when no one needed each other? Four of you kinda plowed through it by yourselves. We barely said anything to each other the whole time because no one felt the need to communicate. All I did was follow behind the pack as you ran off like toddlers on a sugar high and occasionally dropped a buff to feel like I was doing something. I never hit anything because it was dead before my attack animation was over. But I guess that really is some folks' idea of fun?  

 

These things go through my head on a regular basis, but I bite my tongue because I don't want to be "that guy." 

 

IO sets are a double edged sword. The whole point of the game is to feel like superheroes. We all get that. It's great being able to solo EBs. But when so many people have figured out these insane min-maxed, soft-capped builds, by the time you're, say, mid-30s... everyone is a brute. Everyone can dish out and defend against so much psycho damage that the only purpose of a tank is to herd critters into nice little clusters to make them even easier to sweep away, and you don't really need support toons anymore. You don't truly appreciate how boring a TF is until you play a controller. The Imperious TF is about the only exception. But not always. Even then someone can probably go AFK for awhile and no one would notice (I speak from experience).

 

IMHO, game balance is fine up through the 30s (when everyone is at most level 35), and even over that level on up when soloing, or until the team gets to like 5 people. Then it all breaks down and nothing is a challenge anymore even at +4x8 except for a tiny handful of enemies like Vanguard or IDF.

 

The thing is... I have no idea how to fix that. I'm sure a lot of people reading this are scoffing and don't even want to. But highly doubt I'm alone in thinking that teams are boring and we wish there was more opportunity for SOME level of challenge in missions from any given random PuG without having to host our own flashback missions with the settings cranked up. Because that's just not an option every time you want to play.

 

Best of luck with this topic. You aren't alone in these frustrations but many seem to very vocally disagree and conversations having anything to do with game balance tend to get heated.

 

For what it's worth I agree that there are very real issues here. Personally I solo most of the time now because of it. Embracing the tankmage seems the only way currently!

[Haijinx]

Basically starting with IOs all power increases were in the players favor.

 

Now power creep has won. 

 

The war is over, there isn't even an ember to revive on the other side. 

 

So you have to play for other reasons than challenge.  Or you can solo and set things up in a way to get some.

 

A bunch of intentionally obtuse people will tell you you can recruit other like minded players for task forces with crazy challenge settings like no enhancements and so on.   But lets get real. 

 

 

 

[Sovera]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Basically starting with IOs all power increases were in the players favor.

 

Now power creep has won. 

 

The war is over, there isn't even an ember to revive on the other side. 

 

So you have to play for other reasons than challenge.  Or you can solo and set things up in a way to get some.

 

A bunch of intentionally obtuse people will tell you you can recruit other like minded players for task forces with crazy challenge settings like no enhancements and so on.   But lets get real.

 

True, without any rewards matching it there would be a lot of difficulty to find teams to run missions with those difficulty settings. On a REGULAR basis. Finding such a team to do it once or twice should be possible.

 

I mean, heck, @Linea runs their uber hard, no-special-rewards-attached-to-it architect missions on a daily basis multiple times.

 

But back to the OP, small teams is what you want. Advertise as such. Heck, play over Everlasting and I'll be there with you.

[Haijinx]

43 minutes ago, parabola said:

Best of luck with this topic. You aren't alone in these frustrations but many seem to very vocally disagree and conversations having anything to do with game balance tend to get heated.

 

For what it's worth I agree that there are very real issues here. Personally I solo most of the time now because of it. Embracing the tankmage seems the only way currently!

There is a definite flame all discussions involving balance faction. 

 

Seems like they refuse to even entertain the idea there may be balance issues with the game as a whole.

 

And want to shunt any possible remedies into esoteric options.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

True, without any rewards matching it there would be a lot of difficulty to find teams to run missions with those difficulty settings. On a REGULAR basis. Finding such a team to do it once or twice should be possible.

 

I mean, heck, @Linea runs their uber hard, no-special-rewards-attached-to-it architect missions on a daily basis multiple times.

 

But back to the OP, small teams is what you want. Advertise as such. Heck, play over Everlasting and I'll be there with you.

Yes I do mean on a regular easy to find basis. 

 

Finding teams is one of COXs traditional strengths.  A reason to play it in a market of titles where most MMOs have become more and more solo oriented.

 

[Jacktar]

7 hours ago, Techwright said:

 (Still having something of that problem with Lady Jane in the Lost cure arc, though)

Agreed she is a pain so.... just bypass her and go clear the path right to the glowie then go back and free her and gently lead her to it. No aggro nonsense from her at all. 👍