What fundamental structures, assumptions, etc should be reconsidered for CoX?

[Black Zot]

5 hours ago, MTeague said:

• Kheldians to me, aren't MEANT to have a specific niche as such. They're Jack-Of-All Trades. Need a Tank? They can tank. Need ranged blasting? They can do that. want more Sentinel-like Durable-Midrange Blapping? They can do that too.  They're like WoW Druids. They specialty is the flexibility.

 

I agree with most of your post, but this part is ... just wrong.  WoW Druids have to spec and gear toward a particular role to be effective at it, and while they technically can cover other roles than the one they built for, they're going to be utter trash at it.  Khelds, in their present state, are the same only without the option to buff one role up to that "good" level.  Dwarf and Nova forms are flatly inferior Brutes and Blasters respectively, and the only reason human form can keep up with Sents is that Sents are themselves underpowered.

 

Druids (and hybrid classes in general) were originally built on the Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none philosophy, and what happened?  Nobody brought a hybrid to dungeons or raids.  Because you were gimping the team by showing up with a moonkin when you could be running a mage.  Blizzard eventually figured that out and granted hybrid classes the ability to be effective in their chosen roles.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Black Zot

[rookery.]

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

I was always disappointed that villains and heroes were relegated to their own worlds.  Seems to be that villains should rightfully be trying to break stuff over in Paragon while the heroes are righting wrongs in the Rogue Isles.  Or better yet, everyone do everything everywhere.  I'm not advocated free world PvP, but I do think the two sides should be integrated better.  On the PvP note, I was somewhat disappointed when CoV came out and I kinda thought when you do a bank job, you'd be fighting an actual hero, someone from the game.  I thought it was going to be a fun little queued system to have minor PvP, the robbing, or saving, of the bank not a guaranteed outcome.  I am not, never have been, a PvPer, but I always thought that'd be cool.  But yeah, definitely let the villains into Paragon to work on their dastardly deeds and the heroes cleaning up the Rogue Isles.  Never made sense to me that the villains were relegated to the Isles when there is plenty of crime to be done in Paragon City!

YES! I have always wanted an option for solo/small team pvp where the villains can be robbing a bank/setting fires/ trashing a city block, general neerdowellain antics and they get a minutes before heroes show up to stop them. I realize it has its logistical issues but it would 'FEEL' right to the genre if it could be pulled off.

 

Or the reverse where the hero is trying to save dam from bursting, disarm a bomb and a villain shows up to foil them.

[DougGraves]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I have the feeling like you don't really want to play an MMO.

 

I want to play a superhero game, not an MMO.  I don't want to have my superhero buy and sell things.  I don't want to have my superhero take the train to get around town. 

 

I understand that there are standard things in MMO games.  But I want this to be less of a game and more of a superhero simulation.

 

MMOs normally have characters equip weapons and armor.  CoH does not.  Because it is a superhero game.  It does not need to copy the tropes of fantasy MMOs.

[Darmian]

40 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

I want to play a superhero game, not an MMO.  I don't want to have my superhero buy and sell things.  I don't want to have my superhero take the train to get around town.

I'm not really disputing this, but that does literally depend on your hero.  Pretty certain Dare Devil gets the train. Batman, while rich, still has to make his stuff and has a company to buy and sell things. So I don't think you're saying get rid of all of this, but rather make them optional perhaps? I just have no idea how you would balance this.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Darmian

[Xenosone]

The beginning of this topic asks what needs to be nerfed so a small handful of puritans can be happy. Not a very productive topic, now is it?

[Darmian]

4 minutes ago, Xenosone said:

The beginning of this topic asks what needs to be nerfed so a small handful of puritans can be happy. Not a very productive topic, now is it?

It doesn't actually ask that at all. Posters have veered off into that but that isn't what @DougGravesstarted this with.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Darmian

[DougGraves]

19 minutes ago, Darmian said:

I'm not really disputing this, but that does literally depend on your hero.  Pretty certain Dare Devil gets the train. Batman, while rich, still has to make his stuff and has a company to buy and sell things. So I don't think you're saying get rid of all of this, but rather make them optional perhaps? I just have no idea how you would balance this.

 

I don't know either.  And it is a game, so removing game aspects of it may make it less fun.  I don't know anyone who enjoys playing the market in CoH or enjoys buying and selling - but I know a lot of players like the flexibility and planning that IO's give.  You could keep IO's and make them free, make everything free and eliminate influence.  But that might ruin a game aspect that people enjoy or just gives them something to do. 

 

A big question for me is if people are actively avoiding doing something.  I question traveling to contacts because I know that I avoid Independence Port and Skyway contacts because it is so much easier to get to contacts in Steel and Talos.  If having to travel to contacts is keeping a significant number of people from doing content it should be removed or redone.  But if buying and selling is a minor inconvenience that allows the flexibility and planning of IO's then it probably should be kept.

[Darmian]

2 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

I don't know anyone who enjoys playing the market in CoH or enjoys buying and selling

LOL, I know at least three, one a RL friend who just enjoys it!  He tried farming, found it tedious, and then went to AH.  And loves placing bids and waiting and all that palaver.

[DougGraves]

5 minutes ago, Darmian said:

LOL, I know at least three, one a RL friend who just enjoys it!  He tried farming, found it tedious, and then went to AH.  And loves placing bids and waiting and all that palaver.

 

I'm not surprised.  I had a friend who played EVE Online and all he did was run a manufacturing company.  He bought materials, made stuff, and sold it. 

 

Almost any aspect of a game will turn out to be someone's favorite thing to do.

 

 

[rookery.]

2 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

I'm not surprised.  I had a friend who played EVE Online and all he did was run a manufacturing company.  He bought materials, made stuff, and sold it. 

 

Almost any aspect of a game will turn out to be someone's favorite thing to do.

 

 

 

Except Dr. Quarterfield. No one sane enjoys Dr. Quarterfield.

 

Yes, I have poisoned the well.

[Black Zot]

10 minutes ago, rookery. said:

 

Except Dr. Quarterfield. No one sane enjoys Dr. Quarterfield.

 

Yes, I have poisoned the well.

 

No one sane CREATES Dr. Quarterfield.

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

I want to play a superhero game, not an MMO.  I don't want to have my superhero buy and sell things.  I don't want to have my superhero take the train to get around town. 

 

I understand that there are standard things in MMO games.  But I want this to be less of a game and more of a superhero simulation.

 

MMOs normally have characters equip weapons and armor.  CoH does not.  Because it is a superhero game.  It does not need to copy the tropes of fantasy MMOs.

 

Great. You have proven my point.

 

from WIKI

"City of Heroes (CoH) was a massively multiplayer online role-playing game which was developed by Cryptic Studios and published by NCSOFT."

 

City of Heroes IS an MMO.

So if you want a superhero game that isn't an MMO, then you should find another game to play.

 

10 hours ago, DougGraves said:

But I want this to be less of a game and more of a superhero simulation.

 

Not sure what that means. It simulates Superheroes fighting crime, hanging out with other superheroes in their bases and in other environments, all kinds of other things, and has a EXTREMELY in depth character customization (Biography area still is too small, but apparently that can't be fixed without linking to external resources).

 

There are additional components, but you do not have to get involved with those if you don't want to.

 

Super heroes do go find contacts, and, in many cases, in comic books they aren't at just one location, they have to go running around and looking for them in order to get information out of them about what is going on in their "CITY".

 

10 hours ago, DougGraves said:

MMOs normally have characters equip weapons and armor.  CoH does not.  Because it is a superhero game.  It does not need to copy the tropes of fantasy MMOs.

 

City of Heroes has enhancements, power selection, temp powers, and enhancements instead of armor and weapons. The same gaming principles apply.

 

I think you need to do more research on game theory.

 

And, again, it is obvious that you don't want to play City of Heroes but some other game. 

I hope that City of Heroes is never changes into what you are looking for.

I love City of Heroes and don't want to see it drastically changed at a core level.

 

For your sake, I hope someone else makes a superhero game that fits your standards or that you gather your own development team and design it yourself.

 

The end-game is not the game. It is the part that was added after the game was completed to extend the life of the game for those that don't alt.

I believe the more superhero related experience is in the game itself - below level 50.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by UltraAlt

[DougGraves]

7 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

City of Heroes IS an MMO.

 

I get that you think this is a compelling argument.  That if you label something and define that label that means the thing cannot change.  But it is not compelling.

[Communistpenguin]

Core changes I wouldn't mind seeing...

Maybe the idea that  power pool should have 4 powers? the devs have gotten away from this a bit, but I wouldn't mind seeing it expanded... Like maybe a "weapons" power pool with the various temp powers like pistol shot or the baseball bat. Just make 1 pool with a whole bunch of powers that are all available at the same time. No tiers. Also power pool attacks do not have to be amazing, but they should be worth the effort to select, slot and use. 

 

I always thought a mastermind, that instead of 6 pets, could adjust them. So you could have the choice of a bunch of weaker pets or a fewer stronger pets. Maybe have it like a Hydra mastermind, where if you inject it with a certain serum, the 3 minion level mobs merge to form a boss level mob. Or the reverse, maybe it would be preferable to break your boss level pet down into multiple minion level pets. Or if you want, merge all your pets together and get a EB level pet. 

 

Id love some of the older ignored zones to get some zone stories and arcs. Like, Eden seems like something interesting happened there, but we never really get to explore it storywise. Same with Creys folley, maybe make it cross faction and have a villain arc about sowing chaos in the freakshow groups that live there. 

All available contacts should show up in the find a contact function. 

 

Maybe the ability to pause Oro arcs? I don't like being locked into no-teaming until the arc is complete, so being able to pause it and go back to your typical level before the oro arc is complete would be nice. 

[Darmian]

Make ouro missions like AE.  Quasi Task Force/Strike Force but you can still invite others along AFTER you've started.  Hell, make actual TFs/SFs like that, why not?  I mean you can open them solo, why not add the invite option?  Have I mentioned this already?  I may have, I didn't read back through the thread.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, DougGraves said:

I get that you think this is a compelling argument.  That if you label something and define that label that means the thing cannot change.  But it is not compelling.

 

You made your points.

I made mine.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Gulbasaur]

21 hours ago, Black Zot said:

Dwarf and Nova forms are flatly inferior Brutes and Blasters respectively, and the only reason human form can keep up with Sents is that Sents are themselves underpowered.

I think, level for level, Kheldians get early and mid-level advantage. In the teens, Nova is very strong. In the twenties, Dwarf form is one of the stronger resist builds until you hit the T8s. There's a brief window at about level 40 when Kheldians get a second wind allowing them to blast and tank... but then they sort of drop off.

 

I don't think they should be on a par with blasters, but also there's a secondary problem there that blasters aren't anywhere near the highest DPS class, despite nominally being a pure DPS build. I think the "ranged advantage" idea was exaggerated in the original planning phase, partly because tanking is so strong and partly because a lot of buffs are in melee or mid range.

[Haijinx]

On 4/5/2021 at 6:09 AM, Gulbasaur said:

 

 

The HC/SCORE devs made IOs much too cheap and this has caused a power bloat. I'm a bit torn about this because it really does make building a character more complex and more interesting, but also +4x8 should be a challenge, not the default for some archetypes.

 

 

Its a market.  The devs don't set the prices, your fellow players do. 

 

Same as Live basically  (minus how some of the salvage works) 

[Haijinx]

46 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

 

I don't think they should be on a par with blasters, but also there's a secondary problem there that blasters aren't anywhere near the highest DPS class, despite nominally being a pure DPS build. I think the "ranged advantage" idea was exaggerated in the original planning phase, partly because tanking is so strong and partly because a lot of buffs are in melee or mid range.

 

Blasters are absolutely the highest DPS class. Its not even close.

 

Just not Single Target DPS.  

 

Although they will probably do more single target damage in a lot of missions too, due to the opportunity cost of moving to attack the next opponent with melee. 

[rookery.]

One could say if you didn't want an MMO and I can see some of that rationale, that you would play something superhero-y. Sunset Overdrive, Saints Row games for action. Second Life for the rpeas.

 

But then you sacrifice the mmo community grown up around COH...

 

It IS a conundrum.

 

Course I only remember two super hero games from the way before, Superhero League of Hoboken and Freedom Force....Supers games just seemed to be a non starter for a good game.

[Grouchybeast]

On 4/6/2021 at 4:47 PM, DougGraves said:

I don't know either.  And it is a game, so removing game aspects of it may make it less fun.  I don't know anyone who enjoys playing the market in CoH or enjoys buying and selling

 

I was going to ask, what, do you think all the folks in the Market Forum are just rogue AIs trying to keep up their Turing fronts?  But then I started wondering about it and...well, I can't prove that isn't the case.

 

 

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Its a market.  The devs don't set the prices, your fellow players do. 

 

The devs set the overall parameters of the game, though, and they have definitely made a lot of deliberate, targeted choices that have increased IO availability and kept down cost.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Grouchybeast

[Galaxy Brain]

Lets start the fire:

Is global rech out of line?

 

 

Disclaimer:

 

My main is a blaster that regularly gets itself to 350%+ global recharge bonus.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Grindingsucks]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Lets start the fire:

Is global rech out of line?

 

 

Disclaimer:

 

My main is a blaster that regularly gets itself to 350%+ global recharge bonus.

 

*Hides nearby and waits for the power-gaming savages to chase down Galaxy Brain with their metaphorical torches and pitchforks*

[Marshal_General]

I think the epic pools need to be looked at. If everyone who can is taking gloom because it not only better than the other epic pool attacks, but also better that most of you primary or secondary attacks, then something needs adjusting.

[Turric]

On 4/6/2021 at 11:51 AM, Darmian said:

LOL, I know at least three, one a RL friend who just enjoys it!  He tried farming, found it tedious, and then went to AH.  And loves placing bids and waiting and all that palaver.

 

Your friend would love Eve Online.

 

On 4/6/2021 at 12:00 PM, DougGraves said:

 

I'm not surprised.  I had a friend who played EVE Online and all he did was run a manufacturing company.  He bought materials, made stuff, and sold it. 

 

Almost any aspect of a game will turn out to be someone's favorite thing to do.

 

 

 

And DougGraves beat me to it.