Instant Healing: why hasn't it been reverted to a toggle yet?

[Seed22]

18 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Despite what the bad players with 1000+ posts on this forum will tell you, regen is objectively the #1 tanking set in this game.

 

I'm always open to being told otherwise from people who actually play regen in 2021. But the hard numbers don't lie...regen is more durable than any other armour set in the game.

 

This is why I get anxious whenever "buff regen" threads pick up steam. I'd hate to see the most powerful armour set buffed just because the vast majority of people don't know how to use it.

 

Don't make changes to the game that can be fixed by a tutorial. lol

Hahaha...oh wait you’re serious.

 

 

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAA

 

I did have a regen stalker as my 1st 50 way back preshutdown. Good on stalker, shit on everything else that has to do any main tanking. Im sure you’re on excelsior, where its really the newish server and all the players are just getting their bearings. I know for a fact no one on torch( the yknow...ACTUAL min/max server really) would be saying regen is #1. Guess you dont know what Bio armor is. Try that and get back to me.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Seed22

[CaptTastic]

1 hour ago, Crysis said:

 

 

In all seriousness, I’m not sure why Regen was nerfed as hard as it was, as frequently as it was, and then left whimpering in the corner.  It’s almost like the Devs at the time had “had enough” of stupid Regen tricks like tanking Hami, perma-MOG builds (those were crazy broken) and such.  So it became a series of increasing punitive nerfs to pretty much make the set unattractive to everyone.  IO’s restored the playability of the set if you were willing to layer up Defenses on top of the high regeneration/healing via set bonuses and/or switching between Shadow Meld, Rune of Protection, Barrier etc.
 

It’s just never going to be what it once was on a scrapper.  I was serious about the Sentinel version.  You should try one.  Sents have fairly weak offense but a Regen Sentinel is highly durable.

Absolutely agree on the Sentinel regen. I've solo'd AVs on my Sonic/Regen with no resists and less than 20% defence. 

[Grindingsucks]

2 hours ago, Crysis said:

 

 

In all seriousness, I’m not sure why Regen was nerfed as hard as it was, as frequently as it was, and then left whimpering in the corner.  It’s almost like the Devs at the time had “had enough” of stupid Regen tricks like tanking Hami, perma-MOG builds (those were crazy broken) and such.  So it became a series of increasing punitive nerfs to pretty much make the set unattractive to everyone.  IO’s restored the playability of the set if you were willing to layer up Defenses on top of the high regeneration/healing via set bonuses and/or switching between Shadow Meld, Rune of Protection, Barrier etc.
 

It’s just never going to be what it once was on a scrapper.  I was serious about the Sentinel version.  You should try one.  Sents have fairly weak offense but a Regen Sentinel is highly durable.

 

Sentinels, in general, are probably the most well balanced and versatile AT's in the game.  They LOOK terrible, compared to the OP'ed AT's around them, but they offer the role of a pure ranged attacker that a lot of players wish the Blaster was.

 

If I have one complaint about Sentinels, it isn't that they do lackluster damage (the most usual complaint about them- along with their special ability), but rather that their range is so restricted.  I don't expect to be able to snipe something from 120ft away, like a Blaster, but I don't think that buffing their range by 10 or 20 feet would be out of order.  If I'm going to be shooting things from a distance most of the time, I'd like a little more room between myself and the target.  😛

[LEUGIM6]

I think some of you are remembering IH as it was on launch not as it was before being transformed into a clickie.

 

On launch, it gave roughly 1200% regen, then it was nerfed to 800%, then it was nerfed that only half of those 800% were enhanceable.

Then it was changed to only 200% being enhanceable...

...then it was changed into a clickie.

 

This was back when Statesman was in charge and the game, under Positron, has long since evolved with IOs, Incarnates and stuff.

Things that were broken back then, aren't anymore compared to the new stuff.

 

People sometimes forget that some combos are only viable because we now have plenty of ways to get more endurance (Numinas, Miracle, Set Bonuses, Incarnate Alphas, etc...).

Back then, some combos were impossible to play due to lack of endurance. Simply couldn't be played just with Stamina.

These days, things are different, the game has changed and what was considered "too OP" back then doesn't even cut it nowadays.

 

So, IH, with just 200% enhanceable, without any res to -regen, with its glaring hole against alphas against +4s and Incarnate stuff.... doesn't seem that OP anymore.

 

Why not try it and see how it goes?

Is it really more game breaking than all the stuff we currently do?

[Grindingsucks]

2 hours ago, BioFlame said:

I think some of you are remembering IH as it was on launch not as it was before being transformed into a clickie.

 

On launch, it gave roughly 1200% regen, then it was nerfed to 800%, then it was nerfed that only half of those 800% were enhanceable.

Then it was changed to only 200% being enhanceable...

...then it was changed into a clickie.

 

This was back when Statesman was in charge and the game, under Positron, has long since evolved with IOs, Incarnates and stuff.

Things that were broken back then, aren't anymore compared to the new stuff.

 

People sometimes forget that some combos are only viable because we now have plenty of ways to get more endurance (Numinas, Miracle, Set Bonuses, Incarnate Alphas, etc...).

Back then, some combos were impossible to play due to lack of endurance. Simply couldn't be played just with Stamina.

These days, things are different, the game has changed and what was considered "too OP" back then doesn't even cut it nowadays.

 

So, IH, with just 200% enhanceable, without any res to -regen, with its glaring hole against alphas against +4s and Incarnate stuff.... doesn't seem that OP anymore.

 

Why not try it and see how it goes?

Is it really more game breaking than all the stuff we currently do?

 

Well, when you put it like that... 😛  I'll be honest, I never played the set back before the most recent nerf.  It does feel lackluster compared to the other armor sets (though, perhaps not quite as bad as some make it out to be).  I wouldn't be opposed to bumping it back up to the 200% in Beta, to see how it impacts play.

[Monkeyking]

Instant Healing is functionally the godmode click of the set, with Moment of Glory being changed to more of a Build-Up for defense. If you stop thinking about the set as it was at launch, and focus on how it performs right now, it's fine. Instant Healing kicks your regen up +1000% which is more than enough to heal away incoming damage unless you're doing something you shouldn't be. My experience on my Savage/Regen scrapper is that is performs about as well as any other protection set.

 

Having said that, Regen is hot garbage on the way up. Regen just does not DO anything for you unless you have everything fully slotted out, and that's the real problem with the set. There's a big difference between 25% and 50% healing from Reconstruction, especially if you're also short on enhancement slots and can't crank up the recharge. Resilience isn't much, but it really should be available earlier. Ditto for Moment of Glory. Push back Quick Recovery to the 20s, which is about where scrapper endurance problems kick in anyway, and shift Instant Healing to tier 9 like it should be.

[BlackHearted]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

As for the teaming bit this always confused me, there is nothing special about Regen in a team that a SR or Invuln wouldn't get either.

Actually there is.  SR has capped def, invun has capped resistances.  ergo they(sr/invun) stand to gain less from team buffs to resistance and defense than a regen does... especially when considering how much more common +def and +res are than +regen.

Pretty much any league you join for an itrial will have buffs flying everywhere... a good one will definitely have everyone res and def cap'd.  So assuming cap'd resistances and defenses regen armor will shine compared to an invun or SR which a lot of team/league buffs are a lil less helpful on sense they're already at caps on some stats; also regen will have more ability to mitigate spike dmg under these cicumstances... when you get hit on a SR even while at res/def caps.. you pray you don't get hit again.. when you get hit on a regen while at caps there's always a heal or buff to activate to make sure it won't matter if you get hit again.

All that said it's a much more click intensive/"timing stuff right" type set to pilot so it doesn't surprise me the majority of people don't like it as it requires paying close attention to cool downs etc to get the most out of.

Edited April 4, 2021 by BlackHearted
i c an't type

[Grindingsucks]

Quote

All that said it's a much more click intensive/"timing stuff right" type set to pilot so it doesn't surprise me the majority of people don't like it as it requires paying close attention to cool downs etc to get the most out of.

 

This is possibly my own problem with the set, at least in part.  I have the same difficulty with Bio b/c of this.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Why *would* it go back to a toggle?  Regen is a click-heavy defense set, and not everyone likes click-heavy defense sets.  That's why Willpower is an alternative.

 

Regen is fine.  It's not as easy a set as some others, but it's just fine.

[SeraphimKensai]

Honestly I would probably rework Instant Healing to be a toggle similar to RttC from Willpower, but also have scaling resistance to heal Debuffs.

[Galaxy Brain]

20 hours ago, BlackHearted said:

Actually there is.  SR has capped def, invun has capped resistances.  ergo they(sr/invun) stand to gain less from team buffs to resistance and defense than a regen does... especially when considering how much more common +def and +res are than +regen.

Pretty much any league you join for an itrial will have buffs flying everywhere... a good one will definitely have everyone res and def cap'd.  So assuming cap'd resistances and defenses regen armor will shine compared to an invun or SR which a lot of team/league buffs are a lil less helpful on sense they're already at caps on some stats; also regen will have more ability to mitigate spike dmg under these cicumstances... when you get hit on a SR even while at res/def caps.. you pray you don't get hit again.. when you get hit on a regen while at caps there's always a heal or buff to activate to make sure it won't matter if you get hit again.

All that said it's a much more click intensive/"timing stuff right" type set to pilot so it doesn't surprise me the majority of people don't like it as it requires paying close attention to cool downs etc to get the most out of.

 

True! Though if you have capped Def/Res with all those buffs, there would also assumedly be a lot of debuff on the enemy and allies with heals as well? To me, the lines get verrrrrrry fuzzy when a whole team is involved buffing you beyond what any one set can achieve

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Did the mods delete my post? But leave all the people quoting it/spreading misinformation about Regen?

 

Yeah, sorry @Galaxy Brain, but I'm not spending time writing a regen tutorial for a forum if my posts are getting deleted. Would be a complete waste of time - it'd just get deleted!

 

At some point I'll put something together on discord for the devs. (Or on the closed beta forum. The mods over seem more chill than this place.)

 

I'm sure if you write up a turorial it will not be deleted. At the very least, it it lives on a google doc it can be untouched by mods here.

[TalonBlue]

I think I said in one of the Regen suggestion threads, but if I could make minor tweaks to Regen it would be to add debuff resistances somewhere in the powerset to -Regen and -Recovery. Also, maybe lowering the recharge time to 600 seconds for Instant Healing to bring it in line with a similar power, Rune of Protection’s recharge time.

[Doomguide2005]

On 4/4/2021 at 3:41 PM, BlackHearted said:

Actually there is.  SR has capped def, invun has capped resistances.  ergo they(sr/invun) stand to gain less from team buffs to resistance and defense than a regen does... especially when considering how much more common +def and +res are than +regen.

Pretty much any league you join for an itrial will have buffs flying everywhere... a good one will definitely have everyone res and def cap'd.  So assuming cap'd resistances and defenses regen armor will shine compared to an invun or SR which a lot of team/league buffs are a lil less helpful on sense they're already at caps on some stats; also regen will have more ability to mitigate spike dmg under these cicumstances... when you get hit on a SR even while at res/def caps.. you pray you don't get hit again.. when you get hit on a regen while at caps there's always a heal or buff to activate to make sure it won't matter if you get hit again.

<snipped>

Some of this is because Regeneration buffs, especially strong ones (as in IH levels), are rare, very rare.  Now I've fallen a bit out of touch so I may be over looking a new set, but to my knowledge there is exactly one set with the powers needed to boost an SR, Invulnerability or other defense set to IH levels of regeneration.  That set is Empathy whose combo of Regen Aura (+500%) plus Adrenaline Boost (+500%) is an unenhanced 1000+ regen rate and about 1600% once enhanced.  Give those to a capped SR.  It's just plain easier all around at almost all levels to give significant +defense via buffs than Regen buffs.  And as for set bonuses +regen and +max health are both very common set bonuses.  Even stacked up all over the place they don't touch IH or the Empathy buffs in strength.  My SR scrapper stacked them up all over the place.   As in the vast majority of her powers carry at least one +regen and +max health set bonus and that pushed her passive regen to somewhere between 300% and 400%.  Made her incredibly tough but that's no where near 1600%.  Incidentally that's one of the things that makes teams like Green Machine (all Empathy) so hard to kill --> capped defense plus hard capped regeneration (2000% on support types) while doing their offender thing.

[Xenosone]

Because the cottage rule. If the current redditors are to keep with the cottage rule then they must start nerfing regen at semi regular intervals.

I dont make the rules. This is just how thry work.

[LEUGIM6]

Well, I think Regen is a lot more fun with IH as a toggle than a very loooong recharging clickie.

Why not change it back to a toggle and then, tweak the values as needed? 

 

It won't be more game breaking than the stuff we already do anyway. And even if it were the case, the Devs can tweak the numbers of the enhanceable part.

Again, IH as a toggle is a lot more fun to play with.

[siolfir]

39 minutes ago, BioFlame said:

It won't be more game breaking than the stuff we already do anyway. And even if it were the case, the Devs can tweak the numbers of the enhanceable part.

Again, IH as a toggle is a lot more fun to play with.

IH with numbers tweaked as a toggle is called Rise to the Challenge, and it's in a set with Fast Healing, Quick Recovery, permanent +maxhp, and a self-rez tier 8.

[arcane]

On 4/5/2021 at 2:45 PM, America&#x27;s Angel said:

Did the mods delete my post? But leave all the people quoting it/spreading misinformation about Regen?

 

Yeah, sorry @Galaxy Brain, but I'm not spending time writing a regen tutorial for a forum if my posts are getting deleted. Would be a complete waste of time - it'd just get deleted!

 

At some point I'll put something together on discord for the devs. (Or on the closed beta forum. The mods over seem more chill than this place.)

The moderation IS pretty aggressive lately. Simply posting on the same page as something off-topic and/or incendiary seems to be a likely cause for deletion nowadays.

[BlackHearted]

On 4/5/2021 at 12:20 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

 

True! Though if you have capped Def/Res with all those buffs, there would also assumedly be a lot of debuff on the enemy and allies with heals as well? To me, the lines get verrrrrrry fuzzy when a whole team is involved buffing you beyond what any one set can achieve

I can see how it would get fuzzy to look at on paper, but I regularly tank for itrails, hami raids, etc and have used several armors over the years doing those activities.. Regen def stands out to me as preforming very well in those settings where you have  a lot of team buffs...  And I have had other people who I know to be good players tell me they have similar results/experiences with their regen brutes... again either way.. point being the set never struck me as underpowered, just not simple to play.

I could see adding in a 30% end drain resistance and increasing the -heal debuff resistance by some notable percentage maybe make it 1.5 x what it currently is.  But aside from that it really doesn't need anything to be good.  A slight decrease in the recharge in dull pain would be nice for lvling it up I suppose.. those lvls can be somewhat awkward... but i'm not sure how that would affect balance across the board so I hesitate to suggest that.

-addendum:  Some amount of built in slow resistance would be a nice addition as well I suppose, this can currently be added via IOs but has to be stacked rather high to have notable effect, if the set it's self had some smol amount built in that would make it easier to build in resilience to something people often complain about it being weak to.. like off the top of my head if it has a 30% res to slow effects that would be a seemingly reasonable change in my view.

Edited April 7, 2021 by BlackHearted
i still c an't type

[LEUGIM6]

4 hours ago, BlackHearted said:

I can see how it would get fuzzy to look at on paper, but I regularly tank for itrails, hami raids, etc and have used several armors over the years doing those activities.. Regen def stands out to me as preforming very well in those settings where you have  a lot of team buffs...  And I have had other people who I know to be good players tell me they have similar results/experiences with their regen brutes... again either way.. point being the set never struck me as underpowered, just not simple to play.

I could see adding in a 30% end drain resistance and increasing the -heal debuff resistance by some notable percentage maybe make it 1.5 x what it currently is.  But aside from that it really doesn't need anything to be good.  A slight decrease in the recharge in dull pain would be nice for lvling it up I suppose.. those lvls can be somewhat awkward... but i'm not sure how that would affect balance across the board so I hesitate to suggest that.

-addendum:  Some amount of built in slow resistance would be a nice addition as well I suppose, this can currently be added via IOs but has to be stacked rather high to have notable effect, if the set it's self had some smol amount built in that would make it easier to build in resilience to something people often complain about it being weak to.. like off the top of my head if it has a 30% res to slow effects that would be a seemingly reasonable change in my view.

 

 

 

Well, if you're using the argument that on teams with full buffs Regen is good at least say how much BETTER are the other sets, also fully buffed.

Common....

 

The argument being made isn't whether Regen is good or not (I say it underperforms, but that's not the point). The point is this: in the current day and age of CoH, IH being changed back into a toggle won't be more powerful or gamebreaking than a lot of stuff we already do in game.

And IH as a toggle is a lot more fun to play with, as it was on launch and life before it got obliterated.

 

Why not try it and see how it works?

I mean, Homecoming DOES have a beta server, what wrong could it do?  

[Galaxy Brain]

7 hours ago, BlackHearted said:

I can see how it would get fuzzy to look at on paper, but I regularly tank for itrails, hami raids, etc and have used several armors over the years doing those activities.. Regen def stands out to me as preforming very well in those settings where you have  a lot of team buffs...  And I have had other people who I know to be good players tell me they have similar results/experiences with their regen brutes... again either way.. point being the set never struck me as underpowered, just not simple to play.

I could see adding in a 30% end drain resistance and increasing the -heal debuff resistance by some notable percentage maybe make it 1.5 x what it currently is.  But aside from that it really doesn't need anything to be good.  A slight decrease in the recharge in dull pain would be nice for lvling it up I suppose.. those lvls can be somewhat awkward... but i'm not sure how that would affect balance across the board so I hesitate to suggest that.

-addendum:  Some amount of built in slow resistance would be a nice addition as well I suppose, this can currently be added via IOs but has to be stacked rather high to have notable effect, if the set it's self had some smol amount built in that would make it easier to build in resilience to something people often complain about it being weak to.. like off the top of my head if it has a 30% res to slow effects that would be a seemingly reasonable change in my view.

 

I agree that it is tough to play, and if everything else stat-wise is covered then it for sure has strengths! My issue though is that it gets real fuzzy to even compare things if you have capped stats and team mate coverage as... well at what point does it even matter what armor you have?

 

The bigger issue is that until you get to that point, Regen is hard to play and on it's own or in a less saturated environment it can struggle to match the performance of playing another set, on top of having WP and Bio as "regen themed" competition. Regen SHOULD keep it's theme of being hard to play, it just needs to be ALLOWED to play that way (it really needs debuff res for mechanical and I'd argue thematic purpose) as well as be more REWARDING to play the way it is meant to be up until you have a whole team+ buffing you. 

 

[Bunmaster]

I do enjoy my my regen scrapper on those clicky days, but i prefer a toggle armor after a long shift. I think it should be kept the way it is right now, mostly. I want to see some DeBuff Resistance vs. -heal, -regen, -rec and -recharge. Maybe tweak some numbers here and there, but a full clicky set is good variety compared to the rest.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Bunmaster

[BlackHearted]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

I agree that it is tough to play, and if everything else stat-wise is covered then it for sure has strengths! My issue though is that it gets real fuzzy to even compare things if you have capped stats and team mate coverage as... well at what point does it even matter what armor you have?

 

The bigger issue is that until you get to that point, Regen is hard to play and on it's own or in a less saturated environment it can struggle to match the performance of playing another set, on top of having WP and Bio as "regen themed" competition. Regen SHOULD keep it's theme of being hard to play, it just needs to be ALLOWED to play that way (it really needs debuff res for mechanical and I'd argue thematic purpose) as well as be more REWARDING to play the way it is meant to be up until you have a whole team+ buffing you. 

 

So the only reason i'm even talking about it compared to other sets in a realistic setting like being on a league etc is b/c it was brought up by other people that they think it's the best overall at top end 50 gameplay... something that's a lil subjective.. but.. I have also sorta noticed it being particularly good ...

In the course of leading every incarnate activity in the game multiple times I've found that compared to my wp tank .. and my dark tank.. and my stone and my elec and my shield and my invun and my fire armor etc etc etc brutes/tanks (that I've also lead that same content with) that the regen stands out as being particularly good... *not* particularly bad... I don't really have a horse in the debate of if it's technically the best.. I personally think maybe dark armor on a tank would outperform it slightly in these settings b/c dark's just so good...but I also think which one is the best of the best is a silly thing spend too much thought on... once you get past "ya it won't die no matter what" it's all a matter of preference for which armor you're using at the end of the day.

Regardless, I agree that it could stand to get some debuff resistance. (specifics as to which ones in previous post) But I disagree that the set struggles to match performance of other sets. I would word that as the player base struggles to get the same performance out of it due to the nature of the set.... which in and of it's self may be something to take note of and adjust around...  I've been hearing newer players and more casual players say they found regen hard to play for a long long time... And will gladly point out it can be a grind to lvl up and get going cus the lower lvls are fairly clunky with it.... it doesn't perform too well until you've got slots.... But even if it did get changed I wouldn't want to see IH go back to a toggle... it's nice in my opinion to have an armor set that's not just "turn on these toggles and you won't die, here's your 1 click heal".

 

 

10 hours ago, BioFlame said:

 

 

 

Well, if you're using the argument that on teams with full buffs Regen is good at least say how much BETTER are the other sets, also fully buffed.

Common....

 

The argument being made isn't whether Regen is good or not (I say it underperforms, but that's not the point). The point is this: in the current day and age of CoH, IH being changed back into a toggle won't be more powerful or gamebreaking than a lot of stuff we already do in game.

And IH as a toggle is a lot more fun to play with, as it was on launch and life before it got obliterated.

 

 

I'm specifically saying the opposite of that: Regen is BETTER than several other sets in that setting imho.

As for making it a toggle again and why not to do it I answered that in my original post.

[Heraclea]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

The bigger issue is that until you get to that point, Regen is hard to play and on it's own or in a less saturated environment it can struggle to match the performance of playing another set, on top of having WP and Bio as "regen themed" competition. Regen SHOULD keep it's theme of being hard to play, it just needs to be ALLOWED to play that way (it really needs debuff res for mechanical and I'd argue thematic purpose) as well as be more REWARDING to play the way it is meant to be up until you have a whole team+ buffing you. 

 

The problem that I see with regen is not just that it's harder to play.  It's harder to play with no payoff.  This was not the case in the early game, before IOs and before Stamina was just given to you.  Then, Quick Recovery at level 4 was enough compensation for a lot of things, especially when you could six slot that power for recovery and free up your build in other ways.

 

Now, Fire Armor is objectively weaker than other armor sets out of the box.  There are still eleventy bajillion fire armor brutes, because fire armor has a payoff for its weakness in the things it does for offense.  But now, Quick Recovery is no longer the attractive proposition it used to be in issue 18, and its benefits can be duplicated with IOs, so Regen no longer has a payoff that compensates for its weaknesses. 

[Troo]

On 4/4/2021 at 12:41 PM, BlackHearted said:

Actually there is.  SR has capped def, invun has capped resistances.  ergo they(sr/invun) stand to gain less from team buffs to resistance and defense than a regen does... especially when considering how much more common +def and +res are than +regen.

Pretty much any league you join for an itrial will have buffs flying everywhere... a good one will definitely have everyone res and def cap'd.  So assuming cap'd resistances and defenses regen armor will shine compared to an invun or SR which a lot of team/league buffs are a lil less helpful on sense they're already at caps on some stats; also regen will have more ability to mitigate spike dmg under these cicumstances... when you get hit on a SR even while at res/def caps.. you pray you don't get hit again.. when you get hit on a regen while at caps there's always a heal or buff to activate to make sure it won't matter if you get hit again.

All that said it's a much more click intensive/"timing stuff right" type set to pilot so it doesn't surprise me the majority of people don't like it as it requires paying close attention to cool downs etc to get the most out of.

 

+1

 

A similar post by @America's Angel explained how Regen's deficiencies are could be looked at as benefits. Which can be counter-intuitive, but obvious once adjusted to the concept.

 

I thought maybe that post was in the thread below but couldn't find it.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Troo