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Trickshooter's Buff Trick Arrow 3.0!


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Here we are again! I know some of you are thinking "We just got the game back after all these years and you're still not happy with Trick Arrow?"

 

To that I say, of course I'm happy with it! I love it! I used to get on Titan Icon all the time in the last 6 years and be so sad that I couldn't hear that familiar sound effect of firing off each arrow!

 

I worked really hard for several years while the game was live to try and push for a few updates to this, my favorite powerset. It was only in those final 8 months that I finally had had a few conversations with Arbiter Hawk and Synapse about what could be done for the set. Even as the game was approaching sunset, I received a couple of messages from other players who had spoken to the devs privately and said that they agreed the set was in need of an overhaul, though the earliest anything could be done was Issue 25. For those years the game was gone, if I ever thought about what could have been, I was grateful for knowing that, at least.

 

So, as I said, here we are again! I love Trick Arrow, but I would also love for it to get the little bit of help it needs to be a better support set.

 

First and foremost, I would never want to change what people love about this set. None of these suggestions would change the set in such a way that people would no longer be able to enjoy the set as it was before.

 

Second, I understand that this would definitely need testing and some suggestions might be too good, but I feel these definitely move Trick Arrows up the ladder of support sets. It might still be near the bottom, but should be closer in to performance to the other sets this way.

 

Entangling Arrow

  • Increase Endurance Cost to 7.8 (9.75 for MMs)
  • Reduce Accuracy to 1.0
  • Increase Slow to -62.5% (-50% for MMs and Corruptors)
  • Increase Recharge Slow to -62.5% (-50% for MMs and Corruptors)

I've said this before, but the penalty placed on Trick Arrow's -Recharge effects is a relic of the early Issues of the game. To say Trick Arrow could cause too much -Recharge with its one AoE and two ST debuffs is crazy in a game with powersets like Cold Domination and Time Manipulation who can stack -Recharge to higher amount and then layer it with buffs that Trick Arrow has no access to.

 

Flash Arrow

 

Flash Arrow isn't super great as a debuff, but it functions as well, and actually slightly better, than similar powers. I wouldn't want to change this power from the way it is, as there are people that enjoy it as it is, and I also wouldn't want it to be unfairly better than similar powers just because.

 

Glue Arrow

  • Reduce Slow to -62.5% (-50% for MMs and Corruptors)
  • Increase Recharge Slow to -62.5% (-50% for MMs and Corruptors)

Trick Arrow as a set has an abundance of -Speed, having two powers that put enemies at the -Speed cap. Lowering the -Speed of Glue Arrow, while increasing it's -Recharge moves the set a little bit away from being control-heavy and closer to being more debuff-heavy, as it should be as a support set.

 

I feel like Glue Arrow could do more, but I don't want to push it with new effects, and I also don't know what to add that wouldn't be a control and I don't want to add more controls. Also, if any additional effects were added, I would say the Endurance Cost would need to be bumped up to between 13 and 14.56.

 

Ice Arrow

  • Increase Slow to -25% (-20% for MMs and Corruptors)
  • Increase Recharge Slow to -25% (-20% for MMs and Corruptors)

The idea here is just that Ice Arrow's debuffs should perform at least as well as other Ice powers in the game.

 

Poison Gas Arrow

 

PGA really has become a great power since the buff it received in Issue 22. I would only say that this is a great place to add an additional debuff effect of some kind. Possibly -150% Regen or a ticking Endurance Drain

 

Acid Arrow

  • Increase Resistance Debuff to -25% (-18.75% for Controllers, MMs and Corruptors)
  • Increase Radius to 15 ft
  • Increase Recharge to 30 seconds
  • Increase Endurance Cost to 10.4

Part of the original benefit to choosing Trick Arrow was that it was a more offensive set, and that was most clear through it's ability to stack two -Resistance powers to achieve more -Resistance more often than other sets. And that was mostly the case until the introduction of the Villain ATs and the sharing of "pseudopets" without adjusting them to be correct values for those ATs. Now, I don't want to get any powersets nerfed, so I feel the simpler way to restore this benefit back to Trick Arrows is to slightly buff the -Resistance put out by it's two resistance debuffing powers.

 

Acid Arrow is also a bit of a weird power compared to similar powers in other sets. It's pretty much overshadowed by Acid Mortar, and the next closest powers are the AoE debuffs in Poison, but it lacks the benefits those powers have (stronger debuff on main target, main debuff and splash effect can self stack, faster recharge) while having similar limitations (8 foot radius). Increasing the radius, along with the recharge and end cost, would give Acid Arrow a benefit over those similar powers, while also leaving them their own benefits over Acid Arrow.

 

Disruption Arrow

  • Increase Resistance Debuff to -25% (-18.75% for Controllers, MMs and Corruptors)
  • Increase MaxTargets to 16
  • Add ToHit Debuff of -12.5% (-10% for Controllers and Corruptors, -7.5% for MMs)

Like Acid Arrow, increasing it's -Resistance debuff improves the set's effectiveness, while also restoring a benefit to the set that's been missing from the other ATs' versions.

 

Regarding it's MaxTarget limit, only 3 Defender AoE debuffs are limited to 10: Fulcrum Shift, Heat Loss and Disruption Arrow. One of these does not belong. Disruption Arrow, even buffed, is not in the same league as these other powers and should not be limited to only 10 enemies.

 

In addition to fixing those inconsistencies, I also feel this power is a good place to add a -ToHit effect to. Trick Arrows as a set needs more defensive debuffs, namely -ToHit, and Flash Arrow's debuff alone can't cut it. Adding -ToHit to Disruption Arrow not only fills that hole in a bit, it also:

  • A) Gives incentive to take Flash Arrow in order to stack both effects
  • B) Fits thematically with the Trick Arrows set, which works best when multiple arrows are used at once
  • C) Fits along the lines of Liquefy and Earthquake, which also reduce ToHit through vibrations
  • D) Offers invention set options to a power which currently can't really be slotted for much

 

Oil Slick Arrow

Oil Slick Arrow is amazing power and the only suggestion I have is to allow it to be affected by Range slotting. I didn't even realize it couldn't accept Range enhancements until very recently.

 

EMP Arrow

Similar to Oil Slick Arrow, EMP Arrow is practically perfect in every way. I wish it could also be slottable for Range. I think this is leftover from when it was originally copied from EM Pulse in Radiation Emission, as all other Ranged AoE Holds seem to be able to slot for Range.

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Buff Trick Arrows! | Buff Poison! | Powerset Suggestions: Circus Performers | Old Powerset Suggestions:  Probability Distortion | Magnetism | Hyper-Intellect

Some day, the prophecy will be fulfilled; Trick Arrows will be buffed and I will finally be allowed to die. https://twitter.com/trickshootah

 

The Strange Relationship between Damage Buffs and Damage Resistance OR "Why doesn't Power Boost work on Cold Shields!?"

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trick arrow is already fixed, it's called tactical arrow now

 

The more I see you on these boards, the more I see you're not looking to help, just to pick fights.

 

Here we are again! ... Snipped for Brevity

 

These seem like reasonable changes. Can I also add a request for clarity on which arrows/powers actually have a ToHit check applied, versus which summon pseudo-pets/fields to drop the effects? I keep wanting to play a TA, but keep getting confused over which ones I need to worry about Accuracy and which it doesn't matter for.

Death is the best debuff.

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My big issue is that Dark does in one power, TAR patch, what takes trick arrow 3 powers to do... seriously.. wtf?

 

For corruptors Dark Miasma has a -30 resist and -90 run speed. Disruption arrow is a -15 resist only, Acid arrow is a -15 resist -20 def, and glue arrow is a -90 run speed.... seriously.. like how does this even happen...

 

 

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My big issue is that Dark does in one power, TAR patch, what takes trick arrow 3 powers to do... seriously.. wtf?

 

For corruptors Dark Miasma has a -30 resist and -90 run speed. Disruption arrow is a -15 resist only, Acid arrow is a -15 resist -20 def, and glue arrow is a -90 run speed.... seriously.. like how does this even happen...

 

Even worse, Tar Patch only costs 7.8 endurance. Disruption Arrow on it's own costs double that.

Buff Trick Arrows! | Buff Poison! | Powerset Suggestions: Circus Performers | Old Powerset Suggestions:  Probability Distortion | Magnetism | Hyper-Intellect

Some day, the prophecy will be fulfilled; Trick Arrows will be buffed and I will finally be allowed to die. https://twitter.com/trickshootah

 

The Strange Relationship between Damage Buffs and Damage Resistance OR "Why doesn't Power Boost work on Cold Shields!?"

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My big issue is that Dark does in one power, TAR patch, what takes trick arrow 3 powers to do... seriously.. wtf?

 

For corruptors Dark Miasma has a -30 resist and -90 run speed. Disruption arrow is a -15 resist only, Acid arrow is a -15 resist -20 def, and glue arrow is a -90 run speed.... seriously.. like how does this even happen...

 

Even worse, Tar Patch only costs 7.8 endurance. Disruption Arrow on it's own costs double that.

 

It feels like the recharge is longer too.... I love Trick arrow, but its gimped compared to every other defender/Corruptor set.

 

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My current highest character on these servers is a TA corr who I love but...these buffs would be helpful. While I know it'd tip this set more into "control" I do wish that either Entangling Arrow or Ice Arrow were a cone or AoE. This set is so AoE heavy it's jarring to only be able to hold or immobilize one at a time. Or maybe add another kind of debuff into one or both of them, to help balance it out.

 

Though personally I'd probably keep the slow on Glue Arrow where it is and just bump up the -recharge. Glue Arrow is a cornerstone power and I'd hate to lose what debuffs I do have (personally).

 

I am one of those who loves Flash Arrow and I use it constantly but I do wish that the -to hit was just a smidgen better so it's more useful mid-fight rather than just being a -perception so I can stealth a group past mobs or control how many adds we get. Which is great, don't get me wrong but overall every TA power (with the exception of Oil Slick and EMP Arrow) feel like they're just...missing...something.

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trick arrow is already fixed, it's called tactical arrow now

Aren't you clever, I bet you're fun at parties. Tactical arrow isn't available on Corruptors/Defenders. Go away troll.

 

the thing is tho, I feel like he has a point. I was looking at tactical arrow and was thinking it seems to make me think the few more crowd control abilities I have as trick arrow are not really more over the leg up of the blaster damage. I was already considering if I would want to play my trick arrows guy as a corrupter instead of a defender this time around, and this blaster combos is making me consider leaving that set entirely.

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Honestly I would probably embrace the "Controller-lite" aspect of TA snd make Entangling Arrow a targeted AoE immob instead of single target.

 

The existence of Time creates some precedent for this, with its ST hold and AoE chance for hold. Given immob is soft control, I really don't see a problem with TA having it as an AoE.

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trick arrow is already fixed, it's called tactical arrow now

Aren't you clever, I bet you're fun at parties. Tactical arrow isn't available on Corruptors/Defenders. Go away troll.

the thing is tho, I feel like he has a point. I was looking at tactical arrow and was thinking it seems to make me think the few more crowd control abilities I have as trick arrow are not really more over the leg up of the blaster damage. I was already considering if I would want to play my trick arrows guy as a corrupter instead of a defender this time around, and this blaster combos is making me consider leaving that set entirely.

To be honest I think this is more a case of Tactical Arrow being really, really good more than anything. Honestly I think that both Tactical Arrow and Temporal Manipulation are OP compared to other Blaster secondaries. So in one sense you're comparing a top tier Blaster secondary to a low tier Defender primary.

Defender Smash!

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To everyone that's given feedback, thanks!

 

I really want to stress two things with these suggestions, though:

 

First, like I said, I do not want to drastically change any powers. I don't like the idea of logging in one day and a power you enjoy no longer works like you expect. I know A LOT of people feel like now that the game is more in the players hands, the cottage rule can be thrown out the window, but I feel like a lot of people misunderstand it's purpose. Arcanaville once described it pretty well, though I can't find the exact quote: the cottage rule doesn't exist to hamper players; it exists to protect players from the other players who think they know what everyone wants.

 

Second, I would not try to improve Trick Arrow with more controls. The set already has an AoE Hold, AoE Sleep, two AoE -Speed, with one of them a KD patch, a ST Hold and a ST Immobilize; if it had one more AoE Control, it'd practically be a Controller Primary. It probably already performs best as a Controller Secondary, which I don't mind, that's the nature of the set, but I'd prefer to focus on the debuff aspects of the set so that it's equally improved for all ATs, rather than doubly improving it for Controllers.

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Buff Trick Arrows! | Buff Poison! | Powerset Suggestions: Circus Performers | Old Powerset Suggestions:  Probability Distortion | Magnetism | Hyper-Intellect

Some day, the prophecy will be fulfilled; Trick Arrows will be buffed and I will finally be allowed to die. https://twitter.com/trickshootah

 

The Strange Relationship between Damage Buffs and Damage Resistance OR "Why doesn't Power Boost work on Cold Shields!?"

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I only suggested changing the immob to AoE, because it's a soft control anyway (To the point that a lot of people consider immobs "useless"), and single target immobs kind of are a bit useless. I don't think changing it to AoE would really make TA into more of a controller than it already is, it just turns Entangling into an attack I might actually want, rather than something I'd absolutely skip if possible.

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Great suggestions. Endorsed.

 

That said, I've always found the recharge on many TA powers a bit long. You don't think any could be reduced, perhaps with a corresponding balance to their effects? That might allow more to be used on each group of mobs.

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I only suggested changing the immob to AoE, because it's a soft control anyway (To the point that a lot of people consider immobs "useless"), and single target immobs kind of are a bit useless. I don't think changing it to AoE would really make TA into more of a controller than it already is, it just turns Entangling into an attack I might actually want, rather than something I'd absolutely skip if possible.

 

I don't know anyone that would consider them useless, as they're one of only two status effects that will affect an Archvillain through their Purple Triangles (the other being sleep), so for Controllers it's incredibly useful for setting up Containment. Which is the main reason I wouldn't suggest buffing Trick Arrow in this way. Improvements to the set for Controllers should be incidental, and giving the set another AoE control is a direct improvement to the set for them, while not really improving the set for the other ATs who have it as a secondary, Corruptors and Masterminds, whose control mods are only 64% of Controllers.

 

It's much more useful for all ATs with access to Trick Arrow to buff the debuffing aspect of the power. That improves it significantly for Controllers, Corruptors and Masterminds. You might say you still wouldn't take it, but upping the debuff to the strength of Web Grenade would make it very potent, if you've ever been hit by that power.

Buff Trick Arrows! | Buff Poison! | Powerset Suggestions: Circus Performers | Old Powerset Suggestions:  Probability Distortion | Magnetism | Hyper-Intellect

Some day, the prophecy will be fulfilled; Trick Arrows will be buffed and I will finally be allowed to die. https://twitter.com/trickshootah

 

The Strange Relationship between Damage Buffs and Damage Resistance OR "Why doesn't Power Boost work on Cold Shields!?"

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  • 3 weeks later

Poison Gas Arrow

 

PGA really has become a great power since the buff it received in Issue 22. I would only say that this is a great place to add an additional debuff effect of some kind. Possibly -150% Regen or a ticking Endurance Drain

 

My memory is foggy but what changes were made to Poison Gas Arrow during I22 again? I'm looking at it now in Pines and I'm trying to remember what it did before.  I believe it was just a flat out sleep with no possibility of Proc'ing the choking animation or the -Dmg debuff correct?  I am looking at the I22 Notes right now but I might of overlooked something. 

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Poison Gas Arrow

 

PGA really has become a great power since the buff it received in Issue 22. I would only say that this is a great place to add an additional debuff effect of some kind. Possibly -150% Regen or a ticking Endurance Drain

 

My memory is foggy but what changes were made to Poison Gas Arrow during I22 again? I'm looking at it now in Pines and I'm trying to remember what it did before.  I believe it was just a flat out sleep with no possibility of Proc'ing the choking animation or the -Dmg debuff correct?  I am looking at the I22 Notes right now but I might of overlooked something.

 

It used to be a flat 66% chance to sleep minions when the power activated, and then a sticky -Damage. And the cloud would linger, even though it didn't actually do anything.

 

It was changed to function as a pseudopet during I22. The chance to apply the sleep was dropped and instead it continually reapplies the -Damage and rolls a ToHit check to apply the sleep to minions.

Buff Trick Arrows! | Buff Poison! | Powerset Suggestions: Circus Performers | Old Powerset Suggestions:  Probability Distortion | Magnetism | Hyper-Intellect

Some day, the prophecy will be fulfilled; Trick Arrows will be buffed and I will finally be allowed to die. https://twitter.com/trickshootah

 

The Strange Relationship between Damage Buffs and Damage Resistance OR "Why doesn't Power Boost work on Cold Shields!?"

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Poison Gas Arrow

 

PGA really has become a great power since the buff it received in Issue 22. I would only say that this is a great place to add an additional debuff effect of some kind. Possibly -150% Regen or a ticking Endurance Drain

 

My memory is foggy but what changes were made to Poison Gas Arrow during I22 again? I'm looking at it now in Pines and I'm trying to remember what it did before.  I believe it was just a flat out sleep with no possibility of Proc'ing the choking animation or the -Dmg debuff correct?  I am looking at the I22 Notes right now but I might of overlooked something.

 

It used to be a flat 66% chance to sleep minions when the power activated, and then a sticky -Damage. And the cloud would linger, even though it didn't actually do anything.

 

It was changed to function as a pseudopet during I22. The chance to apply the sleep was dropped and instead it continually reapplies the -Damage and rolls a ToHit check to apply the sleep to minions.

 

Oh wow!  That's amazing!  I didn't know about this change.  That's huge.  I really do need to roll some new Trick Arrow toons esp after the issues with Redraw was fixed.

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Aren't you clever, I bet you're fun at parties. Tactical arrow isn't available on Corruptors/Defenders. Go away troll.

 

The more I see you on these boards, the more I see you're not looking to help, just to pick fights.

 

Galatians 4:16

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Galatians 4:16

 

Please don't weaponize scripture...I'm 100% sure that intent of these authors was not about winning arguments...

 

Read Gal 5:22-23, or Matthew 7:5 before using it in this manner...

 

I'm not going to turn this into a religious battle, but seriously...don't use it that way...this is not the place or the time...

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"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." - Niels Bohr

 

Global Handle: @JusticeBeliever ... Home servers on Live: Guardian ... Playing on: Everlasting

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Trick Arrow was always a bit subpar, and it's mind-boggling that buffs were made to tactical arrow and not ported over to Trick Arrow. So many of trick arrow's powers are just straight up inferior now. The same thing is happening with Devices and Traps.

 

Entangling Arrow has always been hot garbage, as is Web Grenade, but at least the blaster versions deal damage. Since giving them damage would still keep them worse versions of a blaster secondary, I would add a defense debuff to the defender versions and make them 8' radius AE's. A single target immbolize is crap.

 

Glue Arrow has a 45 second recharge for Tac Arrow and a 60 second recharge for Trick Arrow. WHY? 

 

Ice Arrow - 12 second recharge for Tac Arrow, 18 second recharge on Trick Arrow. WHY? The Tac Arrow version also deals minor damage.

 

And the real kick in the junk...

EMP Arrow has a 300 second recharge for tactical arrow. ESD arrow has a 90 second recharge for Tac Arrow. WHY?

 

Why are so many primary powers worse than a blaster secondary? Blasters have received huge survivability and utility boosts, and defenders and corrupters give up substantial damage. Buff TA and Traps! At minimum, give them the trickle down benefits afforded to Tactical Arrow and Devices.

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When I first saw tactical arrow my first thought was, they gave most of trick arrow to blasters... in an equivalent or better form.  That’s not right.  I love trick arrow.  It needed help before, it needs more help now. 

 

An aoe immobilize won’t do much.  Maybe if the set didn’t already have glue arrow, but it does. An aoe immob is not much different from glue arrow, which mobs can’t run out of like tar patch, rains, etc.  if mobs are reaching melee range with glue arrow you’re doing something wrong. 

 

I have this nagging feeling in the back of my head that tells me flash arrow’s -to-hit was unresistable on live.  This might still be the case, I don’t know.  I thought the unresistable aspect made it on par with other -to-hit powers when fighting AV’s because they resisted so much of the other sources.  Thus justifying the low value.  I wouldn’t mind a couple more points in flash arrow though. 

 

Acid arrow and disruption arrow need buffed period. I think Trickshooter nailed the changes for these.

 

EMP arrow is good it just needs its recharge shortened. Considering the entire sets, radiation and trick arrow, trick arrow’s EMP arrow should be at least on par with the recharge of an accelerated metabolism boosted EMP.

 

The last issue has less to do with trick arrow and more to do with pseudo pets.  The archetype modifier for pseudo pets needs fixed.  Right now corrupters are marginalizing defenders.  Look at the team comps in the speed tf thread.  Not a single blue shield.  I am not trying to nerf other people, but it’s not right, and I think we all can see that. 

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Guardian survivor

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  • 2 weeks later

Entangling Arrow is one of the few powers I'd seriously consider throwing out the Cottage Rule for. It's just mind-boggling, what is a single-target immobilize doing in a buff/debuff set? And the -recharge is less than half as strong as Web Grenade for Blasters!

 

Preach!

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