The New Energy Melee Set

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, Taboo said:

 

This would then violate the cottage rule. Your positions could be taken as hypocritical. That's not to be confused with Hippo Critical my newest scrapper character.

...huh?

[KC4800]

OK, they replaced Stun with Power Crash, right?

 

I never took Stun, I took Cross Punch from the fighting Pool instead.

Is it worth my while to abandon Cross Punch to take Power Crash? I'm giving up Fighting Synergy, Foe KD, and Stun for Foe Disorient, Special. Why should a Tier 8 power from a primary be less desireable than a pool power? Is it actually better? How is it better?

[Snarky]

yeah, i made an energy/will brute.  i may make an invul/energy tank.  or Brute.  i always end up on brutes lol.  but there is one in my future

[Marshal_General]

On my scrapper, I put the +50% chance for crit ATO proc in TF and smile when I see it pop because I know ET is about to delete something.

[siolfir]

22 hours ago, MTeague said:

So it's an easy sell to me, esp with Total Focus still doing basically the same animation, but faster. At least, it feels faster to me. I haven't got hard data on that though. 

It's the same animation, just without the slow mo replay effect that stretches it out.

As for the "hard data"...

Old animation: 3.3 seconds, damage hits at 2.3 seconds.

New animation: 2.53 seconds, damage hits at 1.767 seconds.

[Naraka]

On 5/3/2021 at 2:22 PM, siolfir said:

 

Wasn't intending to multipost, but this came in while I was typing my response. Even if you are concerned with precisely how much magnitude of single target stun, you're still better off. You just use Barrage instead Stun (and do more damage while applying the same magnitude). The people who were complaining about losing Stun during the feedback thread were  talking about wanting to Stun one mob quickly in a fresh encounter, then switch to another one. They can use Total Focus for that now with a slightly slower animation, and Barrage as a follow up in less total animation time.

Uh huh. Before the change I could swiftly stun 2 foes using  Stun and TF then proceed to stun a 3rd with ET. Depending on the situation, I could juggle multiple bosses nearly guaranteed and still have the other attacks to concentrate damage on some more resilient foes.

 

Even though I'm over it (haven't really touched EM since but that's for other reasons), I do find it interesting how the defenders will go so far to validate their own perspective that they try to shape those that disagree as unreasonable or uncompromising. 

 

No if, and, or buts. If you liked your guaranteed stun mags in old EM, now it's locked behind using TF. 

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

If you liked your guaranteed stun mags in old EM, now it's locked behind using TF. 

I never said it wasn't. What I said was that two mag 3 guaranteed stuns is now possible in less total animation time using Total Focus then Barrage than it was with Stun then Total Focus.

 

And unless you were talking really old Energy Melee, your "Stun one, TF another, stun a 3rd with ET" pattern you described - using the long animation for ET - can be done with TF, Barrage, and ET (which never had a guaranteed stun) for the same stun magnitude and chances to the same number of targets. As for concentrating damage on the more resilient foes, if you always took Barrage and Energy Punch and Stun then you can use Power Crash (which replaced Stun) to add more damage than Stun did and possibly hit other mobs as well. There really isn't a situation that got numerically worse than it was just prior to the patch, it's just that they almost always require Total Focus now. I also haven't made an EM since the beta, because I didn't want everything gated through TF, but I am willing to acknowledge that I didn't lose anything that I could do immediately prior to it going live - even as I call it a cottage rule violation for breaking IO slotting.

 

Now, pre-original nerf when Total Focus had a mag 4 stun and ET was always fast? Yeah, there are a few things you could do there that you can't now, most of them involving ET being available immediately and Total Focus being a one-shot stun on bosses.

Edited May 5, 2021 by siolfir
wording

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

No if, and, or buts. If you liked your guaranteed stun mags in old EM, now it's locked behind using TF. 

But the guaranteed single target stun mag functionalities never left the set, meaning the cottage rule wasn’t violated. Maybe you don’t care about that - just saying this since some folks in the other thread have been very confused about the rule.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

I never said it wasn't. What I said was that two mag 3 guaranteed stuns is now possible in less total animation time using Total Focus then Barrage than it was with Stun then Total Focus.

 

And unless you were talking really old Energy Melee, your "Stun one, TF another, stun a 3rd with ET" pattern you described - using the long animation for ET - can be done with TF, Barrage, and ET (which never had a guaranteed stun) for the same stun magnitude and chances to the same number of targets. As for concentrating damage on the more resilient foes, if you always took Barrage and Energy Punch and Stun then you can use Power Crash (which replaced Stun) to add more damage than Stun did and possibly hit other mobs as well. There really isn't a situation that got numerically worse than it was just prior to the patch, it's just that they almost always require Total Focus now. I also haven't made an EM since the beta, because I didn't want everything gated through TF, but I am willing to acknowledge that I didn't lose anything that I could do immediately prior to it going live - even as I call it a cottage rule violation for breaking IO slotting.

Nope. I tried it. If you utilized minimal slotting for stun duration in Stun (basically just an Acc and Stun), relying on juggling TF to enable Barrage to simulate Stun alone ended up getting less stun or just more juggling. Keeping those targets stunned, at best, could be accomplished faster but you're reapplying even more often made more tedious with TF. 

 

Can you get better stun and damage with the new EM? Probably. Shaved down animation times does work wonders and an added cop out power to pump up AOE with is a sure fire performance bumper. It still took base performance and locked it being more high-end build slotting because +rech is even more important to that build than it ever was before.

 

I believe I mentioned, if they wanted to keep the same base performance, they could have just kept the new power as a ST sun while the AoE was just damage. 

 

All in all, the individuals arguing the numbers pan out and I'm just complaining for nothing usually never took Stun in the first place and don't take into account targets aren't training dummies that stand around for you to parse your damage numbers. It only takes them a portion of a server tic to get their moves off.

[arcane]

35 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

All in all, the individuals arguing the numbers pan out and I'm just complaining for nothing usually never took Stun in the first place and don't take into account targets aren't training dummies that stand around for you to parse your damage numbers. It only takes them a portion of a server tic to get their moves off.

You’re not complaining about nothing. You’re just complaining about something very minimal. If you really rely on such precise stun calculations so heavily on a melee character that you’re this sore about a clear net buff, I have doubts about your efficacy with that character.

[ForeverLaxx]

46 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Nope. I tried it.

Unfortunately, you're just going to get these people to tell you that you're "doing it wrong" and need to "git gud" simply because you took the set for a different reason, built your playstyle and strategy around that reason, and when that playstyle was taken from you you got annoyed that the character you built no longer feels like your character anymore.

 

I'm not going to go too in depth rehashing all my problems with New EM because its defenders don't care about anything other than their own personal playstyle and the numbers said playstyle produce. My problems with the set amount to the "play it this way or you'll suck" mechanic that is the hand-holdy "combo" system. I will never like sets being changed to suit an entirely different playstyle than their original one as that directly changes character identity and feel. If I wanted a combo system melee set, I had a bunch to choose from already. EM didn't need to be another one.

 

EDIT: Hah, the "git gud" comment happened while I was typing this. Imagine my shock

Edited May 5, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[Naraka]

21 minutes ago, arcane said:

You’re not complaining about nothing. You’re just complaining about something very minimal. If you really rely on such precise stun calculations so heavily on a melee character that you’re this sore about a clear net buff, I have doubts about your efficacy with that character.

It's not as minimal as you think. The more simple the build, the more profound it feels. Just the notion of having the stun in your back pocket for some purposes is something you completely ignore which isn't the case with TF+Barrage since they'll be in your rotation constantly.

 

Look, I'm not even complaining the change is bad or messed up or ruins my game. I'm saying you're pissing on people's legs and telling them it's raining. It's dumb and obvious and I doubt anyone appreciates it.

 

As for it being a minimal change: I somewhat agree (I could adapt, I just have less enthusiasm to try) but when you put these changes in along with all the other buffs, the casualization guised as QoL (Blaster had become a whole different monster than it was live, Tanker is a whole different monster with it's buffs, Stalker became a whole different monster with all it's additions), those little things add up and continuing to let them slide uncontested is a mistake you should recognize. 

 

And don't take any of those shout outs as a call for nerfs. They are just examples to prove a point.

[arcane]

29 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

EDIT: Hah, the "git gud" comment happened while I was typing this. Imagine my shock

Can you please ignore me since you have obviously had such a big problem with me for a good while now? Your not-so-subtle personal jabs are very tiresome.

 

Anyhow, this isn’t about talking shit. If anyone wanted advice on building a character to be more resilient under newer numbers, I would happily help them in game. 
 

EDIT: it doesn’t even sound like Naraka needs help since he’s now acknowledging this is not a huge deal and more of a frustration with the narrative.

Edited May 5, 2021 by arcane

[Naraka]

43 minutes ago, arcane said:

 

EDIT: it doesn’t even sound like Naraka needs help since he’s now acknowledging this is not a huge deal and more of a frustration with the narrative.

I guess it only matters if people get upset and make noise.

 

I think apathy is probably worse for this game in the long run.

 

But no, I was never asking for help. That ship sailed when I suggested making Power Crash stun it's primary target and not the rest of the mobs in it's AoE which would keep the powers initial functionality. My build didn't need more chance stun.

[tidge]

The following comment is not precisely about Energy Melee (newly revised, or what came immediately before)...

 

The Stun component of Energy Melee is (in my experience) one of the best places to experience 'disorient' as a type of control against enemy mobs, as you literally apply the disorient as you are actively working to get their health to zero (and reap rewards).

 

I've played many sets that include stuns, quite a few that have them as secondary effects, but Energy Melee was always the best experience for me.

 

I make this comment because I think that it is important not to minimize/trivialize the opinions of folks that lean into Stun as a part of Energy Melee.

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I'm not going to go too in depth rehashing all my problems with New EM because its defenders don't care about anything other than their own personal playstyle and the numbers said playstyle produce. My problems with the set amount to the "play it this way or you'll suck" mechanic that is the hand-holdy "combo" system. I will never like sets being changed to suit an entirely different playstyle than their original one as that directly changes character identity and feel. If I wanted a combo system melee set, I had a bunch to choose from already. EM didn't need to be another one.

You probably think that I'm probably one of those "defenders" of new EM that you're talking about based on my comments in this thread, but I actually completely agree with everything in the rest of the paragraph, and said as much in several threads, including the focused feedback thread. My defense of it here is simply acknowledging that if you buy into the slightly changed playstyle that the changes enforce, it really is better in pretty much every situation. But yes, it changes how the set is played (much like the original nerf did, which caused me to shelve my main for years).

 

7 hours ago, Naraka said:

Look, I'm not even complaining the change is bad or messed up or ruins my game. I'm saying you're pissing on people's legs and telling them it's raining. It's dumb and obvious and I doubt anyone appreciates it.

 

As for it being a minimal change: I somewhat agree (I could adapt, I just have less enthusiasm to try) but when you put these changes in along with all the other buffs, the casualization guised as QoL (Blaster had become a whole different monster than it was live, Tanker is a whole different monster with it's buffs, Stalker became a whole different monster with all it's additions), those little things add up and continuing to let them slide uncontested is a mistake you should recognize. 

 

And don't take any of those shout outs as a call for nerfs. They are just examples to prove a point.

To address the highlighted part, it wasn't my intention to say that it wouldn't require changes in how you played to get the same performance - in my case, I'd have to actually take Barrage, since I never took it (or Stun beyond a pre-i13 PvP build on the old test server) before, because I could reliably stun multiple targets with Bone Smasher, Energy Transfer, and Total Focus - and what wasn't stunned was killed fast enough it didn't need to be. I was just saying that with tweaks to how you play you were as capable as you were before. I also would've supported a Thunder Strike-like AoE in Stun rather than a cone, with more damage and a guaranteed stun on the primary target - which was brought up as an option for Power Crash also  during the feedback thread IIRC - but to be honest that's just ambivalence about it since the set has lots of stun everywhere.

 

As far as the rest of the buffs you mention... the Stalker changes were already live when the shutdown was announced and the Blaster changes were in beta - the current dev staff had little to do with those. Tankers can be put down as a Homecoming change and while there were several people questioning it, mostly anyone complaining about them during the feedback thread was pegged as a "whiny Brute player" upset that Tankers were getting competitive damage, regardless of the reason they might oppose the changes. The exceptions to that characterization were the people wanting no aggro cap, or the ones who insisted that Tankers should keep Bruising (often in more attacks).

 

So those changes either aren't specific to Homecoming because they were from Paragon or were contested - Tankers would be doing more damage at the cap than Blasters if the original set of changes went in (it wasn't until that was pointed out in the feedback thread that the cap was reduced to 500%... and the Brute cap was lowered again). As far as casualization... yes, I agree there. But there are differing opinions as to whether that's a good or bad thing: most of the people who played a lot 10-15 years ago have more going on and less time to play.

[Marine X]

Haven't had an Energy Melee Character since just before it got NERFED on Live, Till I decided to make a Praetorian EM / Regen Brute ( alternate version of my Radiation Melee / Fire Armor Brutes "Sonny Burns and his twin brother Bubba Burns" ) called Battlestrike. Have him to almost 40 doing Mostly Praetorian content  other than things that fit his Backstory. I am really happy with the set and the recent changes are taking a little adjustment, but I have to say I actually like this combo mechanic better than others I have tried out.

[Bopper]

21 hours ago, Marine X said:

but I have to say I actually like this combo mechanic better than others I have tried out.

I agree. I dont like overly complicated combo mechanics (dual blades, yikes) and I don't really like build up combos either (street justice, water blast) as I feel forced into only using powers that build up the combo, otherwise I feel less efficient.

 

This one is as basic as it gets, though. I am using a power I would use anyways (TF) then follow it with a power I would use anyways (ET). Plus, I'm not restricted to using ET immediately after, I can use plenty of powers without fear of lost Energy Focus. So as far as "combos" go, this one is probably the least pervasive I've seen. It's a 1-2 punch, and you're done.

 

Edit: I guess I shouldn't say Dual Blades is overly complicated because it is not. It's just very fickle and buggy, and relying on the combo to work leads to many failed experiences.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Bopper

[KauaiJim]

I love EM but honestly it was really lacking behind other sets.  It got to where I rerolled some toons just to get away from EM because it just felt weak to me compared to other sets.  I do not know if the changes helped or not because haven't dusted off those 'parked' builds to see whether they feel fun now.  I really hope so.  EM is a great set (or could be).  It just needs to not feel anemic compared to other sets.  

 

So maybe it's time for me to dust off Pompummeler, Owie Kapowie, Pom Pom Power, Powerburst, Micromax and Minimac and see what they can do?  (in my spare time lol)

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

I don't really like build up combos either (street justice, water blast) as I feel forced into only using powers that build up the combo, otherwise I feel less efficient.

 

Imagine them changing an entire AT to function that way while mostly discarding the rest of its style.

[UberGuy]

31 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

 

Imagine them changing an entire AT to function that way while mostly discarding the rest of its style.

 

Do you mean Stalkers? Because, if so, I could not possibly disagree more. Hide/Placate + Slow AS was completely out of step with other DPS ATs' performance and pretty incompatible with large team play. The Assassin's Focus mechanic made Stalkers playable for me.

[Naraka]

8 hours ago, UberGuy said:

 

Do you mean Stalkers? Because, if so, I could not possibly disagree more. Hide/Placate + Slow AS was completely out of step with other DPS ATs' performance and pretty incompatible with large team play. The Assassin's Focus mechanic made Stalkers playable for me.

I guess RIP anyone who found Stalker playable so that you could play it instead.

 

Obviously that's an exaggeration but from what I could relate, that might be how some feel when they go out of their way to make some alterations to the game.

 

... That and the Stalker change is so drastic, it really does invalidate the old style (which you didn't address) since it's probably better DPS to use the hide crit on another attack or AoE while building focus.

 

You see, you have to look past your own preference when philosophically examining arguments. 

[UberGuy]

Just now, Naraka said:

I guess RIP anyone who found Stalker playable so that you could play it instead.

 

Obviously that's an exaggeration but from what I could relate, that might be how some feel when they go out of their way to make some alterations to the game.

 

... That and the Stalker change is so drastic, it really does invalidate the old style (which you didn't address) since it's probably better DPS to use the hide crit on another attack or AoE while building focus.

 

You see, you have to look past your own preference when philosophically examining arguments. 

 

Let's remember - nothing actually changed about Placate or slow AS. They're still there. What changed was players were given an alternative to them. You can totally ignore Assassin's Focus if you want, and just occasionally get a critical hit you wouldn't have before.

 

Anyone who enjoyed the old way was probably not getting a lot out of it on teams - Stalkers were basically weaker Scrappers with less AoE, features they paid for in abilities that a lot of teams would prevent them from using. Now, they can "scrap" and actually deal serious damage while playing with teams who don't wait around for them to sneak ahead and AS something. Solo, they can still be played the "old" way if their players want.

 

So the woe here doesn't make much sense to me.

 

The one thing I'll concede the new mechanics took away was the "controlled" bonus crits against mezzed foes. That's not something most Stalkers could leverage well solo, and IMO it was not really a noticeable contribution on teams, so I don't miss it, but maybe some do.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, UberGuy said:

The one thing I'll concede the new mechanics took away was the "controlled" bonus crits against mezzed foes. That's not something most Stalkers could leverage well solo, and IMO it was not really a noticeable contribution on teams, so I don't miss it, but maybe some do.

Eh. The 20% critical chance for held/sleeping enemies was taken away in PvE (it's still there in PvP) but the scaling out-of-hide critical chance was added (they weren't there originally). So based on the discussions from the cottage rule thread it was really converted to a sometimes-lower, sometimes-higher chance that can affect any enemy rather than removed entirely (insert eyeroll here).

[Naraka]

50 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

So the woe here doesn't make much sense to me.

 

 

It's because you're not paying attention.

 

Assassin's Focus wasn't the only change made over the transformation of that particular AT. As outlined by @siolfir, the crit changes that scale with team was also one fix as well as an often forgotten effect, demoralize. 

 

I think, among most criticisms (or woes if you want to be dramatic), the more prominent is the perception. Stalkers always could scrap and with using their tools, would match Scrapper unless the fight stretched on too long where Scraps would surpass them. Now Stalker mostly surpasses Scrap in ST DPS. But it's not that it CAN do that, it's HOW it does that which is basically by being a better scrapper than Scrapper and discarding what was considered the Stalker's signature.

 

Again, you really have to depart from personal preference to ever understand my point. But one symptom that tend to spark my suspicion is overall perception: barely anyone dislikes new Stalker; in fact, most love new Stalker and people tend to do that when it's something with huge power and no drawbacks.

 

As for the point that the normal hidden AS and placate is still there, you can't just end there. What niche or team contribution does that provide? Stating that the novelty still exists is just a throwaway point. Most people don't even take Placate since they replace it with an enhancement (which is another point that affects this line of discussion).