Buff Brutes... or Nerf Tanks.

[Brutal Justice]

18 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

All three use Claws and Super Reflexes.

 

While solo, the scrapper kicks the crap out of the brute and the tank on standard +4 clear alls.

While solo, the tank kicks the crap out of the brute and scrapper on being able to survive Werner rules level content. (Enemies buffed, players debuffed, no insps, no faceplants, no temps.)

 

Part of the issue is you’re playing a defense set that shares the same “cap” across all three archetypes.  If all three of these toons where electric armor I am sure you would find more of a reason for the brute.  

 

A 40% defense hard cap for non tank archetypes, ie brutes and tanks, 43% for EATS, would help differentiate the three.  The scrapper would truly be highest damage medium survivability, brute  high/high, tank medium/ highest.

 

 Currently sharing the same “cap” scrappers durability and damage push right to the point of needing the extra mitigation of the tank, squeezing out the brutes.  Which you demonstrated with your +4 clear all’s and then jumping to the tank for the Werner rules.  

 

Resistance sets are more balanced archetype to archetype, due to the hard caps.  Defense sets outside of tanks and brutes are not balanced even within the same archetype.  

 

I believe resist based brutes still have a place, due to the different caps from scrappers and still higher damage than tanks.  Defense brutes have almost no place due to having the same “cap” as scrappers with only marginal more hp and less damage.  

[Sovera]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

This topic got me curious. (I never Pylon test!) So I took my Claws/Regen Brute (built purely for PvP) into RWZ...

 

Pylon times:

~2:100-2:20 mins with hybrid

~2:30-2:40 without hybrid

 

I imagine it would do even better with a dedicated PvE build.

 

With Hybrid:

 

Without Hybrid:

 

Brute damage seems fine to me.

 

18 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I have three Bill Z Bubbas.

 

Well, technically speaking I have Bill Z Bubba the scrapper, Beel Z Bubba the brute and Bael Z Bubba the tank.

 

All three use Claws and Super Reflexes.

 

While solo, the scrapper kicks the crap out of the brute and the tank on standard +4 clear alls.

While solo, the tank kicks the crap out of the brute and scrapper on being able to survive Werner rules level content. (Enemies buffed, players debuffed, no insps, no faceplants, no temps.)

 

The scrapper takes down a pylon in 3 mins. The brute, 4 mins. The tank 4.5 mins.

 

You might need to compare build notes with America's Angel. Your 'proof' appears to be how your Brute is just barely edging ahead of the Tanker, where America's Brute, also Claws, also with a secondary that does not boost damage directly, does it in 2:30. Suffice it to say I never even got close to those times on a Tanker even on a direct damage boosting Fire Armor with Fiery Embrace and a heavy Burn. maybe by adding -res procs I'll get to 3 minutes as average but if America's Angel did it with a PvP character I'm doubting that they have -res procs slotted in.

 

[Replacement]

The reasoning for this topic, and all of its proponents, sure sounds to me like:

 

"We're mad that Brutes are at all comparable to other options now."

 

Sorry, I originally had a better take with analysis but this is how these arguments honestly read to me and the forums ate my more nuanced take.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Bill Z Bubba, another thing I wanna shout out real quick is that Claws is fundamentally different on a Scrapper, making it's comparison to Brute/Tank versions unfortunately not 1:1 😞

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, Replacement said:

The reasoning for this topic, and all of its proponents, sure sounds to me like:

 

"We're mad that Brutes are at all comparable to other options now."

 

Sorry, I originally had a better take with analysis but this is how these arguments honestly read to me and the forums ate my more nuanced take.

Think you’re reading the wrong thread. Brutes aren’t “comparable” - they’re mostly obsolete unless (1) you PvP (DR curves do some completely stupid stuff between different AT’s - you can literally have situations where certain brute sets have more mitigation than the equivalent tank set by default) (2) you shake up the equation by looking at a set like Energy Aura or Regeneration or Super Strength that either Scrappers or Tankers can’t have.

Edited May 20, 2021 by arcane

[Replacement]

Just now, arcane said:

Think you’re reading the wrong thread. Brutes aren’t “comparable” - they’re mostly obsolete unless (1) you PvP (DR curves do some completely stupid stuff) (2) you shake up the equation by looking at a set like Energy Aura or Regeneration or Super Strength that either Scrappers or Tankers can’t have.

 

I'm seeing the same data as you.

"Well yeah Brutes are clearing faster but not much faster."

 

Meanwhile, Brutes only meaningful survival penalty is the max hp cap.

 

Meanwhile, no one wants to mention that Brutes are the only AT with a completely unfettered version of any high-scale attack like Energy Transfer - Scrappers and even Stalkers get their crit bonus damage humbled, tanker aoe never applies, but Fury makes no distinction and multiplies those attacks dutifully.

 

To me, there are justified Tanker nerfs but they're all indirect:

• Performance based on procs is accurate but needs a massive call-out -- we know PPM isn't where the old or new devs wanted it to be and is a more fruitful endeavor anyway.
• Tanker cones should probably have a target cap of 8 instead of 10. They are not due to (as I understand it) tier precedent of powers going 5>10>16 but I think the p4 buffs warranted a new precedent. This is a "performance expectation" thing.
• AoE is still meta. If anything, it's yet another reason for people to be pushing for new difficulties and reward structures. A simple setting to upscale "objective" bosses to EBs would do a lot for slow AS, single target sets, and a lot of debuff support powers.

[arcane]

You are correct that fixing PPM would be an alternative approach that would bring brutes and tankers closer to being balanced. I’m just not nerf-herding on that issue because I’m a certified proc monster addict.

 

You are of course incorrect that Brutes are only behind Tankers in survivability in the HP category. That’s only correct if you assume everything to be capped by default, which is an absurd proposition. Tankers have a far easier time reaching those caps due to greater base values, the incredible SMotT ATO proc, etc. Tankers are almost immediately in AFK invincibility territory. Brutes have to really devote a giant chunk of their IO’s and slots and power choices to get anywhere close.

Edited May 20, 2021 by arcane

[BrandX]

I always felt that Brutes should have their resist caps lowered.

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I always felt that Brutes should have their resist caps lowered.

That would certainly be one way to get people to never play Brutes again.  Regardless, it has already been said by developers that if the Brute resistance cap would ever be lowered, Tanker resistance cap would be lowered to match.

[BrandX]

4 minutes ago, Apparition said:

That would certainly be one way to get people to never play Brutes again.  Regardless, it has already been said by developers that if the Brute resistance cap would ever be lowered, Tanker resistance cap would be lowered to match.

 

I don't see why Brutes need to be at 90% like Tanks.  No reason they couldn't be put to 85%

 

[Myrmidon]

13 minutes ago, arcane said:

You are correct that fixing PPM would be an alternative approach that would bring brutes and tankers closer to being balanced. I’m just not nerf-herding on that issue because I’m a certified proc monster addict.

It appears that having The Aprocalypse is the solution, so let’s get to it.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

It appears that having The Aprocalypse is the solution, so let’s get to it.

Sad day 😞 RIP dozens of my 50’s 

Edited May 20, 2021 by arcane

[Sovera]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

Sad day 😞 RIP dozens of my 50’s 

 

It wouldn't happen in a vacuum. The HC crew hasn't been that way.

[Replacement]

10 minutes ago, arcane said:

That’s only correct if you assume everything to be capped by default, which is an absurd proposition.

This is absolutely fair.

 

Of course, all kill speed solo tests are in situations where even the Scrapper survives.

I think it would be unfair and misleading of me, but I could just as easily say "it's unfair that a scrapper can double my tanker's clear time and not even die. What are they giving up to pay for that damage?"

 

I wouldn't, because Scrappers cannot regularly tank, but it feels about as relevant as talking about Pylon performance.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

It wouldn't happen in a vacuum. The HC crew hasn't been that way.

Oh I’m not the kind of guy to imply that any of my characters are being rendered useless. That’s just hyperbole. But the number of respecs and rebuilds I could have to go through could be staggering and tiresome.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

This is absolutely fair.

 

Of course, all kill speed solo tests are in situations where even the Scrapper survives.

I think it would be unfair and misleading of me, but I could just as easily say "it's unfair that a scrapper can double my tanker's clear time and not even die. What are they giving up to pay for that damage?"

 

I wouldn't, because Scrappers cannot regularly tank, but it feels about as relevant as talking about Pylon performance.

Fair. Relevant that the Scrappers and Brutes aren’t exactly faceplanting. But I farm vet levels AFK on all my tankers because they’re still on a whole nother level. Whatever that’s worth.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Your 'proof' appears to be how your Brute is just barely edging ahead of the Tanker, where America's Brute, also Claws, also with a secondary that does not boost damage directly, does it in 2:30.

 

Apparently crosspunch is amazing. I'm guessing there's another damres debuff slotted in there.

[MTeague]

I'm still bogglling at the "Brutes are obsolete".

When did "a really good but not quuiiiiiiite absolutely meta option" become = Obsolete?

And is that really a fair standard for ANY archtype to be evaluated as?

 

Because c'mon, they can't ALL be 100% best-in-class for something.

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I'm still bogglling at the "Brutes are obsolete".

When did "a really good but not quuiiiiiiite absolutely meta option" become = Obsolete?

And is that really a fair standard for ANY archtype to be evaluated as?

 

Because c'mon, they can't ALL be 100% best-in-class for something.

The obsolescence comes specifically from brutes not only being weaker than tankers but also being so similar to them. If brutes couldn’t be built almost identically but better as tanks but instead had their own identity/role, I wouldn’t use that word. It’s not that brutes are bad. It’s that they’re nearly indiscernible from watered down tanks in practice.

 

If I simply cloned an AT, gave the clone 25% less mitigation and, say, 8% more damage, do you feel like making the clone or the original? I don’t think the clone is objectively bad, because it has something going for it. But when I make new melee characters, the clone has started to look like the loser in the pro/con analysis pretty dang often.

Edited May 20, 2021 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

My question is: where does it truly matter?

 

 

Edit:

 

In the Scrapper vs Brute thread (that became Brute vs Tank), didn't you and @Infinitum show time and again the Brute still cleared faster? Did you record the damage received as well?

 

It matters in any content where the brute will fall while the tank survives.

 

Yes, brutes were clearing faster than tanks across the board. Again, not by nearly as much a spread as the mitigation difference between the two.

 

And maybe the most important part of the discussion that's come out is that the game itself may have been broken across the board with IOs. I'd say incarnates but the SG I run with and I did a zero incarnates max diff ITF without any issues and it wasn't longer in any meaningful way to completion than normal.

 

Given that we ARE forced to seek out content difficult enough to give us a run for our money by buffing enemies, debuffing ourselves, choosing not to use incarnates or inspirations or whatever.

 

Maybe what the game needs IS another great global nerf to get us all back in line with the content since we've so ridiculously surpassed it. (And no, a 40% defense hard cap is not the way to go.)

 

I sure as hell don't want even MORE powercreep but so far that's all we've gotten and it started long before the snap.

[kelika2]

Is Pylons went away, what would be the new baseline tester thingy?

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

Part of the issue is you’re playing a defense set that shares the same “cap” across all three archetypes.  If all three of these toons where electric armor I am sure you would find more of a reason for the brute.  

 

A 40% defense hard cap for non tank archetypes, ie brutes and tanks, 43% for EATS, would help differentiate the three.  The scrapper would truly be highest damage medium survivability, brute  high/high, tank medium/ highest.

 

 Currently sharing the same “cap” scrappers durability and damage push right to the point of needing the extra mitigation of the tank, squeezing out the brutes.  Which you demonstrated with your +4 clear all’s and then jumping to the tank for the Werner rules.  

 

Resistance sets are more balanced archetype to archetype, due to the hard caps.  Defense sets outside of tanks and brutes are not balanced even within the same archetype.  

 

I believe resist based brutes still have a place, due to the different caps from scrappers and still higher damage than tanks.  Defense brutes have almost no place due to having the same “cap” as scrappers with only marginal more hp and less damage.  

And then there is this... Lets see how many crazy notions we can fit in one thread.  Whats the record?   Anyone??

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Is Pylons went away, what would be the new baseline tester thingy?

 

@Eva Destruction Praetorian Invasion mission in AE? Slaughter a bunch of AVs and notate time?

 

Get the devs to build a DPS tracker into a punching dummy that we can put in our base?

 

I'm sure we'd figure something out.

[AerialAssault]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

And then there is this... Lets see how many crazy notions we can fit in one thread.  Whats the record?   Anyone??

 

Get rid of Scrappers, Tankers and Brutes. They're more trouble than they're worth.

 

Stalkers and Blasters are on thin ice.

 

The rest are cool. They can stay.

[Infinitum]

26 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I'm still bogglling at the "Brutes are obsolete".

When did "a really good but not quuiiiiiiite absolutely meta option" become = Obsolete?

And is that really a fair standard for ANY archtype to be evaluated as?

 

Because c'mon, they can't ALL be 100% best-in-class for something.

Because they arent