Illusion - Does it really need two stealth powers

[Spectre7878]

So why did the developer of this set decide that it need a single stealth and a group stealth. I think it is kind silly to have two of the same powers in a set. Maybe I missing something. I mean they could have added another control power in illusions. So my main point is. What am missing, and should one of the stealth powers be replaced with something with aoe control?

[Braddack]

na its fine, the superios Invis has an Tread Reduction i dont want miss that, and for teamoriented Toons Group invis can be nice.

[Madae]

It's fairly common, I think, for people to dip into secondaries for powers to slot Luck of the Gambler for cooldown reduction, so I guess you could consider these freebies for that. Invisibility isn't all that useless if you're trying to rush missions.

[Psyonico]

On some of my toons (Illusion/TA, for example) I take Superior Invisibility, on others, where you can't stack that kind of stealth (/Dark, /Storm) Group Invisibility means you're still getting full invisibility.  They both do have uses.

[PainX]

never found a reason for superior invisibility tbh lack of lotg +recharge slots maybe other then that i dont see why it could ever be usefull compared to a +def buff for my whole team along with ofc the stealth being neat but that part is really just the same as the pool power + IO in pve

[Nostromo21]

I'm loving SI on my Ill/Dark troller, for general exploration & flying solo to mission ends.

I switch to Shadow Fall in combat for my PAs + I have 1 Stealth IO in Fly anyway (which I always use with Hover - mad manueverability/speed! :).

 

Now, I'd be curious - can you have 2 Stealth IOs slotted in 2 different toggle powers (such as Hover + Fly), and if so, do you then get 60 combined radius stealth, as that makes you invisible to most normal content/mobs in the game...?

Edited June 14, 2021 by Nostromo21

[Carnifax]

16 hours ago, Psyonico said:

On some of my toons (Illusion/TA, for example) I take Superior Invisibility, on others, where you can't stack that kind of stealth (/Dark, /Storm) Group Invisibility means you're still getting full invisibility.  They both do have uses.

Pretty much this. I've had Carni since i3 or i4 and alternated between the Invises but for her now (Ill/Dark) Group Invis is very useful. LOTG Mule and combines very nicely with Shadow Fall for perma-invis. And on speed runs it can be useful to blanket the whole team with invis if we're ghosting something like the last chunk of a Manti. 

 

Something like Ill/Traps I'd be more leaning towards Superior Invis. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Carnifax

[Nostromo21]

43 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

And on speed runs it can be useful to blanket the whole team with invis if we're ghosting something like the last chunk of a Manti. 

 

Cheers Carni, I completely missed that usefullness for Group Invis, as up to now I've had 30sec+ of downtime between PA casts, so have just let them expire before toggling SI on & stealthing to the next pack of mobs or to the next/final boss/objective. As PAs are close to perma now (thanks for the cheap Mids build file btw! ;), that becomes more & more difficult to manage/time properly...so Group Invis + Shadow Fall is prob the better choice for my little group. I always thought of GI as more for actual grouping with other players, eh, live & learn.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Nostromo21

[oedipus_tex]

Group Invis is actually a really useful power on iTrials. Kind of a hidden gem IMO. 

[Senbonbanana]

I wish one power selection gave both abilities and both were mutually exclusive toggles, freeing up a power slot for something else without losing any of the current flavor of the set.

[Nostromo21]

14 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

No they are unique. You can only slot one +Stealth PROC total in your build even if you take multiple travel powers.

 

Dangit, thanks mate.

[Riverdusk]

Pretty sure superior invisibility takes you to the stealth cap all on its own, so putting a stealth proc in the build with that would be a waste.  Either one alone will also take you to the min threat level cap (which is 0), so taking both for that reason is also a waste.

 

I did take both on my illusion/traps though, for the extra LoTG slot and as a way to invis all my trap "pets" (especially force field generator) so that I can sneak around without having to dismiss it.  I don't care for group invis by itself just because it is too easy (for me) to mistime when it is going to drop and then suddenly everything is shooting at you at just the wrong moment.

 

On an illusion/dark or /storm or /cold I'd just go with the secondary stealth and a stealth IO like normal, and maybe pick up GI.

 

 

[roleki]

I always take both SI and GI because it's a cheap way to get closer to Perma PA.  On some characters, one or the other doesn't get used; on Ill/Traps I use both like @Riverdusk because having everybody invisible is useful when exploding people unawares.  

[Doomguide2005]

Yes Superior Invisibility will take you to the stealth cap i.e. 200ft.  Stalker Hide is 150ft, just enough to beat a Sniper's base Perception of 149ft.  Snipers have the highest base perception.

[Area Man]

On 6/13/2021 at 8:04 PM, PainX said:

never found a reason for superior invisibility tbh lack of lotg +recharge slots maybe other then that i dont see why it could ever be usefull compared to a +def buff for my whole team along with ofc the stealth being neat but that part is really just the same as the pool power + IO in pve

Superior Invis is wonderful for leading one's pets into melee -- especially if you've got Perma-PA.  It also lets you sneak up on foes to confuse them without agro.

I see SI as a personal defense power.  I can scout ahead without drawing agro, cast PA without drawing agro, cast Deceive without drawing agro.  I can get in the middle of a crowd to fire off Flash without drawing agro.  Because it is a toggle, I never have to worry about it running out at an inconvenient time.

Have a glowie mission? SI lets my Illusion Controller run through crowds to the glowie, confuse foes near the glowie and/or use PA to distract them, and then get the glowie with no fear of being attacked.

[vibal]

Odd, I guess I'm on the opposite end of popular opinion. I don't find much use for GI, and take SI exclusively. Teams are rarely fully in range for GI and even less frequently will a team leverage the stealth aspect of it. So you're left with a suppressing defense buff that'll hit some members and actively annoy a few melee players.

[JJDrakken]

On 6/12/2021 at 8:33 AM, Spectre7878 said:

So why did the developer of this set decide that it need a single stealth and a group stealth. I think it is kind silly to have two of the same powers in a set. Maybe I missing something. I mean they could have added another control power in illusions. So my main point is. What am missing, and should one of the stealth powers be replaced with something with aoe control?

 

Your Stealth is for you, the other stealth is for the team and it also grants defense. So yes.

[oedipus_tex]

A subtle difference between these powers is the Defense in Group Invis won't suppress if you get mezzed. That, and the fact that if you run your blue bar to the bottom it still remains, are a benefit of clickable Defense powers that toggle powers don't have.

Edited July 15, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[DreadShinobi]

On 6/12/2021 at 3:55 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

I suspect at some point in the game's design there may have been some corollary with -Threat reduction and other forms of mitigation but I don't think it was ever fleshed out in the combat mechanics to be effective for actual gameplay.

 

One of my favorite moments was tanking lord recluse back on live with my fire/kin controller when the team composition didnt have anything else more suited. The key was manipulating threat level with super speed and it was very effective. I did not lose aggro control over LR. 

 

As 95%+ of my characters have super speed, manipulating threat level with toggling super speed is something very noticeable to me and does have an effect on mob AI and my gameplay.

 

 

I would love to see an update to illusion control.

Edited July 15, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[PainX]

On 7/15/2021 at 12:20 AM, Area Man said:

Superior Invis is wonderful for leading one's pets into melee -- especially if you've got Perma-PA.  It also lets you sneak up on foes to confuse them without agro.

I see SI as a personal defense power.  I can scout ahead without drawing agro, cast PA without drawing agro, cast Deceive without drawing agro.  I can get in the middle of a crowd to fire off Flash without drawing agro.  Because it is a toggle, I never have to worry about it running out at an inconvenient time.

Have a glowie mission? SI lets my Illusion Controller run through crowds to the glowie, confuse foes near the glowie and/or use PA to distract them, and then get the glowie with no fear of being attacked.

GI lets your whole team run through mobs gives them 3% def the only arguments are stacking -threat and pvp stealth those are all things GI can do not only for the caster but for the team in reality this is a pvp power there is an argument for stacking -threat in pve other then that it does nothing relevant and is somewhat worse considering the no team buffs nature of it

[Zepp]

It would make more sense if the Stealth Cap for trollers was increased, but as-is it works well and does add defense.

[Doomguide2005]

     While a bit of an edge case but for /TA or Fire/ or sets with powers similar to Flash Arrow or Smoke with perception debuffs Superior Invisibility will allow the user to get close enough to Snipers to use those powers to completely blind even a Sniper (reduce their perception to zero) allowing the entire team to move by.  In particular I recall a mission in Numina's where Nemesis Snipers can open up at range and an awful lot of Stealth gets 'cancelled when hit' now the team is visible to intervening Nemesis mobs and all hell can break loose.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Typos

[Sakai]

On 6/12/2021 at 4:55 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

 The "cottage rule" is also a consideration.

Cottage rule?

[Doomguide2005]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:53 AM, Sakai said:

Cottage rule?

     Basically a 'rule' based on a forum post (Live Forums) by Castle saying the core functionality and purpose of a power will not be changed though its strength and secondary effects may be added or removed.  He gave an example as part of his overall post of what if Build Up was changed so instead of boosting damage it created a cottage at your location ... 

    Basically unless it's creating a very serious issue(s) that sort of change won't happen.

 

     HCwiki has an article entitled "Cottage Rule" for more context.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Doomguide2005