Rebuilding rage.

[Biff Pow]

The safest way to make a change to Rage is to keep the current version and give an alternate power choice like Practiced Brawler/Master Brawler. So if you hate the changes you can just ignore them.

 

My suggestion would be a toggle version- it gives +ToHit, +Dam, but also increases End use on all your attacks.

 

Or maybe a regular Build Up power, but if you choose this you also get a small passive damage boost.

 

My other usual suggestion is to just create a whole new "Smash Melee" set as a Super Strength rework without losing Super Strength, and make sure it can be used by Scrappers as well.

[Sir Myshkin]

The only way to fix Rage is to Nerf it.

 

Nerf Rage!

[Hew]

7 hours ago, Snarky said:

because if you regular play and level a Dark Armor Tank ir Brute and take the full suite if Dark Armor it is challenging

How about a tw/da scrapper back on live?

 

Yeah, who needs end?!?! I had hardly any set ios that I didnt buy off p2w (yes, real money p2w), and those barely kept me functional. DA is an end consuming beast.

[SeraphimKensai]

8 hours ago, Snarky said:

Are you running ALL the toggles?  I am guessing either 1) you are not ...  and as a Tank doable.  2) is the lack of End issues due to Cardiac Alpha or something similar?

 

because if you regular play and level a Dark Armor Tank ir Brute and take the full suite if Dark Armor it is challenging

 

I run all the dark armor armors + death shroud + oppressive gloom, tough, weave, combat jumping, sprint, and occasionally even athletic run during fights. No Cardiac, But I went Musculature Radial Path. I have Radial Ageless mostly for DDR. As usual the toon is IO'd to the gills.

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I run all the dark armor armors + death shroud + oppressive gloom, tough, weave, combat jumping, sprint, and occasionally even athletic run during fights. No Cardiac, But I went Musculature Radial Path. I have Radial Ageless mostly for DDR. As usual the toon is IO'd to the gills.

core ageless gives some end help, i do not think radial does.  Musc Rad. has the +end mod i think.  Glad you found a DA/SS Tank build that works.  My Dark/Dark Brute has full Cardiac Core help.  THere are a few oddball groups that will still dump his End Bar, I am trying to remember.  Rularuu and Dev Earth in one of the Shadow Shard TF is a horrid memory.

[Marshal_General]

Muscular radial does give end recovery.

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

The only way to fix Rage is to Nerf it.

 

Nerf Rage!

 

Nerd Rage!

 

[Haijinx]

The fix for Rage got turned into the Brute Inherent

 

[Hew]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The fix for Rage got turned into the Brute Inherent

 

That is a totally different mechanic entirely, and is not intrinsic to the _powerset_, but simply the archetype. 

 

Thats like saying bad corr heals were fixed by inherent blue/green that VEATs get.

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The fix for Rage got turned into the Brute Inherent

 

The Brute inherent got the nerf hammer the last time it was “fixed”.  Probably justified since they were regularly out damaging Scrappers.  Still, not really a SS fix

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

The Brute inherent got the nerf hammer the last time it was “fixed”.  Probably justified since they were regularly out damaging Scrappers.  Still, not really a SS fix

Not NOW ... way back before COV though it would have been an awesome fix.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

That is a totally different mechanic entirely, and is not intrinsic to the _powerset_, but simply the archetype. 

 

Thats like saying bad corr heals were fixed by inherent blue/green that VEATs get.

I was waxing nostalgic, that's all.

[MTeague]

Definitely times i wonder if I'm even playing the same game as other people. 

I pop Rage on cooldown on my Invuln/SS and have never had a problem with the crashes. 

I don't find myself running out of end. I don't find myself freaked when my damage bonuses numbers drop to deep negatives for a very short window of time. 

I haven't suddenly felt extremely squishy on him when it fades. 

 

I'm also not doing non-stop farming. Perhaps that matters?  I tend to do just regular story arcs at like +2/x5 on him. 

[Hexquisite]

35 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Definitely times i wonder if I'm even playing the same game as other people. 

I pop Rage on cooldown on my Invuln/SS and have never had a problem with the crashes. 

I don't find myself running out of end. I don't find myself freaked when my damage bonuses numbers drop to deep negatives for a very short window of time. 

I haven't suddenly felt extremely squishy on him when it fades. 

 

I'm also not doing non-stop farming. Perhaps that matters?  I tend to do just regular story arcs at like +2/x5 on him. 

 

Right? I've been reading this thread, wondering what the big deal was and why Rage needed to be fixed at all...

 

Just... keep punching things, people. Soon, you will punch harder again.

[DrInfernus]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

Definitely times i wonder if I'm even playing the same game as other people. 

I pop Rage on cooldown on my Invuln/SS and have never had a problem with the crashes. 

I don't find myself running out of end. I don't find myself freaked when my damage bonuses numbers drop to deep negatives for a very short window of time. 

I haven't suddenly felt extremely squishy on him when it fades. 

 

I'm also not doing non-stop farming. Perhaps that matters?  I tend to do just regular story arcs at like +2/x5 on him. 

The farming suggestion isn’t right, as my SS tank has literally never done it. 
 

I never run out of end and I never feel squishy on rage crash, and the damage crash doesn’t freak me out. It does annoy me though. A lot. Sufficiently to make me just not want to play my SS tank. Wind up a knockout blow, connect, and zero damage - like a wet fart. 
 

It completely undermines the theme. 

[saltyorange]

Rage never made sense from a thematics stand point and it's current form doesn't make sense from a game design stand point. Thematically going into a rage you picture what? You hit harder or faster maybe both. You don't associate going into a rage with becoming more accurate. The power was clearly just designed in a lazy way and it just inherited that quality because build up has it not because it was a good idea.

 

As for game design this is where it really just fails as a power completely. The 10 second damage floor crash is awful game design and I'm not talking about balance it's just fully broken from a game design standpoint to have these periods where you can't even use your powerset and at best you can use gimmicks or try to find some random power to use during that window (which you probably don't even need to be using you are just doing it to feel like you are doing something). It's completely boring and just bad design from a foundational level, even the way they implemented it is janky. "how do we do this so they can't just buff the damage to get around the crash?" "just give them -99999% damage that will do it"

 

You could design it like an offensive version of strength of will from willpower set or you could make it a toggle and instead of focusing on a buff period then a crash period design it so it's both a positive and negative to have it toggled on. For example it buffs damage and recharge but lowers tohit and increases endurance costs. I don't really care just please the 10 pauses have to go.

Edited June 19, 2021 by saltyorange

[Biff Pow]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

Definitely times i wonder if I'm even playing the same game as other people. 

I pop Rage on cooldown on my Invuln/SS and have never had a problem with the crashes. 

I don't find myself running out of end. I don't find myself freaked when my damage bonuses numbers drop to deep negatives for a very short window of time. 

I haven't suddenly felt extremely squishy on him when it fades. 

 

The -Def is noticeable if you're using a set that mostly relies on Defense (like Super Reflexes). But I think the complaints are less about feeling squishy and more that the ten seconds is boring. I don't think it's a big deal myself (I can Taunt, Handclap. Judgement, whatever) but I understand why people don't like it.

[Snarky]

The Rage Crash thing was brought to us by people who were not great at game design

 

Any changes made now have to get past nerd rage barrier 4000

 

We are screwed here.  I will never get a Mr Incredible, The Tick or Colussus type Super Strength character

 

I have a high veteran level SS/Invul Brute.  His backstory is that he was a bodybuilder then got onto Steroids, HGH, then Superadine then Excelsior.  Then he got into some really heavy stuff, almost died, and was “fixed” by some crazy mad scientist.  He still goes through manic depressive cycles.  Hence the super focus strength followed by the complete crash

 

there are only so many variations of that story to tell.  It is more accurate than a Hulk clone in describing the powers

 

yet just being Super Strong somehow eludes this game because the original designers had absolutely no imagination 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Snarky

[Arnabas]

22 hours ago, DrInfernus said:

If you don’t use it, there’s nothing special or ‘super’ about super strength at all. If you do use it, the crash means you don’t even have strength for a while, never mind super strength. It’s literally theme-destroying. 

I don't know... I agree with the first part here, but I don't think it's theme-destroying. I mean, the idea is to replicate Hulk-like characters who will Rage, do bonus damage, and then calm down and recuperate after everything has been smashed. Or like a berserker who kills everything in sight then passes out exhausted. So I don't see it as theme-destroying, but theme-enforcing (a theme that many may not want to play).

 

It's kind of interesting to me, though. Rage (along with certain other powers in other powersets, some of which have been drastically changed since inception) was built as a concept power suitable for people who like a little RP in their MMORPG. My first character was an Inv/ SS tanker who had Rage, but almost never used it. She only activated it when it seemed thematically appropriate, such as when she was injured and close to being overwhelmed, or facing a major villain. I still tend to play her that way much of the time.

 

Over the years, we moved away from things that added "flavour" to the game in an effort to pursue pure utility. I personally like to have some concept powers, but it seems few others feel the same.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, saltyorange said:

Rage never made sense from a thematics stand point and it's current form doesn't make sense from a game design stand point. Thematically going into a rage you picture what? You hit harder or faster maybe both. You don't associate going into a rage with becoming more accurate. The power was clearly just designed in a lazy way and it just inherited that quality because build up has it not because it was a good idea.

 

 

Defense in the Early days of COH was more like Armor Class in Dungeons and Dragons.

 

It wasn't only dodging.  It included Deflecting, or just being so tough that things bounced off.  

 

Thus the Rage letting you hit harder also allowing you to smash through force fields, thick hides, rock armor, and so on .. made sense in that context.  

 

In Dungeons and Dragons you gain a Hit and Damage Bonus based on Strength as well. 

[Galaxy Brain]

22 minutes ago, Arnabas said:

Over the years, we moved away from things that added "flavour" to the game in an effort to pursue pure utility. I personally like to have some concept powers, but it seems few others feel the same.

This is poignant. 

 

I feel similarly, tho it is sort of a see-saw. Yes, concept powers can be fun... but then they can quickly lose their fun factor when another power is just flat better that you have at your disposal. Or, a method of using said power is just better (3 slot rech and keep rage perma), or other comparable sets/powers do your concept more efficiently to the point of subverting your concept (compare TWs effectiveness vs SS where you could conceptually say you use SS to wield said weapon).

 

At times I see it as a sort of weird irony where the sheer amount of choice and conceptual wiggle room we have ends up actually biting certain choices in the butt. 

 

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

31 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is poignant. 

 

I feel similarly, tho it is sort of a see-saw. Yes, concept powers can be fun... but then they can quickly lose their fun factor when another power is just flat better that you have at your disposal. Or, a method of using said power is just better (3 slot rech and keep rage perma), or other comparable sets/powers do your concept more efficiently to the point of subverting your concept (compare TWs effectiveness vs SS where you could conceptually say you use SS to wield said weapon).

 

At times I see it as a sort of weird irony where the sheer amount of choice and conceptual wiggle room we have ends up actually biting certain choices in the butt. 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see a power or  powerset name and what your character's powers are in a "Roleplay" sense are necessarily linked by unbreakable graphine titanium chains 

 

But it sure seems like a lot of people do.

 

For example to me that Street Justice guy could be super strong

Or that Strange Visitor from another world's "Rage" might just be a couple minutes of intense focus, followed by a quick breather.  

[Naraka]

35 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is poignant. 

 

I feel similarly, tho it is sort of a see-saw. Yes, concept powers can be fun... but then they can quickly lose their fun factor when another power is just flat better that you have at your disposal. Or, a method of using said power is just better (3 slot rech and keep rage perma), or other comparable sets/powers do your concept more efficiently to the point of subverting your concept (compare TWs effectiveness vs SS where you could conceptually say you use SS to wield said weapon).

 

At times I see it as a sort of weird irony where the sheer amount of choice and conceptual wiggle room we have ends up actually biting certain choices in the butt. 

 

 

This is usually why I end up on the "stop changing all the powers" camp. At the end of the day, if someone wants to power game and solo 4+/x8 TFs or what not, they can do it on the sets broken enough to do it. You don't need to go breaking every set so you can pick any flavor you want while removing the flavors of others (I am still done with Dark Melee because Shadow Maul is just not cutting it with it's out of sync shortened animation and that was the whole reason I even played the set).

 

Beyond my own personal grievances, I can probably pick it a few other flavor redux powers that likely do more harm than good. Domination (or specifically, perma-dom), pretty much every blast nuke, anything that has to do with travel, most sets that highlight endurance management (or defensive support in general). All different flavors of RP but minimized or removed for convenience or power building but not just any power building... They want their [inserts random powersets] on a [inserts random AT] to solo as well and efficiently as the most powerful meta builds in the game, flavor/RP be damned.

 

On the subject of Rage, maybe change it so you can put it to scrapper/Stalker but I leave it for Brute/Tanker? I dunno, I feel if you don't like something and you can't go without it, there are other sets. Go play Martial arts or Street justice instead.

[America's Angel]

On 6/17/2021 at 4:43 PM, Marshal_General said:

 What do you guys think?

 

I think problems with game balance should be demonstrated with numbers. And that any proposed solutions to these problems should also be demonstrated with numbers.

So, in the context of this thread, what is needed:

• Numerical evidence of rage underperforming vs build up relative to the baseline damage/+tohit of SS vs other melee sets. (Suggest using War Mace for the comparison, as that's the set that Powerhouse has said is the most balanced.)
•  The numbers for the proposed solution, demonstrating clearly how they will close this performance gap.

[saltyorange]

45 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Defense in the Early days of COH was more like Armor Class in Dungeons and Dragons.

 

It wasn't only dodging.  It included Deflecting, or just being so tough that things bounced off.  

 

Thus the Rage letting you hit harder also allowing you to smash through force fields, thick hides, rock armor, and so on .. made sense in that context.  

 

In Dungeons and Dragons you gain a Hit and Damage Bonus based on Strength as well. 

That's interesting and does help me understand why certain sets that seem like they would be resistance they made defense like stone armor. I guess the logic would be that even though it damages the rock it doesn't damage you so you take no damage. If they were using that logic what about something like fire armor? Shouldn't they have considered that defense because it's melting the bullets or whatever before it reaches your skin? Kinda strange.

 

Still though to me it's more clean to say that something is deflected as resistance approaches 100% and just make the defense stat about avoidance.