So, procs...

[oedipus_tex]

3 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

A 3.5 PPM proc that's slotted in a 30 second recharge (no local recharge) 15 foot radius sphere has a 65% proc rate.  It wouldn't stun everyone.  Still possibly too powerful, but not like you'd do mag 4 to 90% of your targets.

 

 

I may have stretched a bit with the phrase "everything in range" but we are talking about a Mag 4 stun on 65% of targets, recastable every 8 seconds. 🙂 I think avoiding that for the sake of keeping Dominators relevant is important.

 

I'm not sure how the PPM works out in either Thunderclap or Dark Pit, but it's got to be in a similar range. There are so many other examples of Stuns in that 30-45 range. Psychic Scream, Fissure, some others I'm sure I'm forgetting. It's a real red flag area.

[tidge]

I'm going to keep beating this drum: I want Purple (Very Rare) and/or PVP sets for Fear and Taunt powers. I realize that there could be some balance issues in PVP but here is my thinking:

• There are enough different versions of Fear and Taunt powers (and at low enough levels) that could stand to have sets which scale across all content.
• There are enough single-target versions of Fear and Taunt powers that could use some improvement.
• Both Fear and Taunt have pretty slim pickings when it comes to slotting choices. (I like Mocking Beratement, but puh-lease)
• (perception bias?) I see quite a few builds that treat Taunt (and single-target Fear) as 1-slot-only powers. I don't know that more set choices would change this, but it can't hurt.

I think Fear is the easier of the two to address. As I wrote above, I simply want a Fear set based on the Coercive Persuasion (Confuse) set, with a %Contagious Fear PPM piece. That piece (and set) makes slotting single-target Confuse powers much more viable (at least for level 50 characters); I want to see the same thing available for Fear powers.

 

The Taunts can be trickier, since those pieces can be slotted in more powers. I don't think another %damage proc is really necessary but that would be the most straightforward. It certainly wouldn't be the end of the world if there was a unique %damage piece that could be slotted in Taunts. Ideally, I'd like to see:

• A set that include more Accuracy pieces. I am aware that several powers are "auto hit", but not all Taunts are. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if Tankers could slot (more) accuracy in their attacks... especially if the accuracy scales to lower levels.
• First choice for non-%damage option... something maybe that generates more Threat? I'm sure (some) Brutes would appreciate this.
• Second choice for a non-%damage option... maybe a %Contagious Taunt piece to similarly improve those single-target (or few-target Provoke) Taunt powers?

[oldskool]

16 hours ago, Mezmera said:

A blaster or defender being able to load up on all those damage procs in their hold which detonate with much more frequency than on an actual control character devalues the actual control character if the mez system is going to remain as it is.  

 

This seems a tad bit hyperbolic.  

 

Blasters, Defenders, even Corruptors, need to pick some very specific blast sets in order to gain a hold.  In the case of Defenders and Corruptors, the same secondary sets are also available to Controllers.  

 

There are specific combinations on these ATs that can gain access to 2 to 3 holds.  However, this access alone doesn't necessarily devalue the whole of an archetype like the Controller or Dominator.  That is, unless there is a majority of players running those specific combinations.  I sincerely doubt that is actual reality.  

 

Also, just because holds can have damaging procs, and Blasters/Defenders/Corruptors have certain powers with 10 to 32 second cooldowns, doesn't change how Overpower or Domination works.  All it does is allows those specific powers to trigger those procs more regularly... on a longer cooldown.  

I don't see the problem.  Also, I play Controllers, Defenders, and Corruptors.  I run procs in those builds.  I still don't see this as a problem.  

[arcane]

Every single Blaster/Corruptor/Defender can get a hold. If you’re one of the few that doesn’t get it from a primary or secondary, Char or Dominate are there for you.

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Every single Blaster/Corruptor/Defender can get a hold. If you’re one of the few that doesn’t get it from a primary or secondary, Char or Dominate are there for you.

 

This is just stating the obvious.  However, in context, it also makes the previous argument worse.  You see, I was giving the benefit of the doubt that by the existence of stacking holds from Cold Blast plus Char were looking at a problem of a Blaster building up multiple mag 3 options.  Same goes for Defenders like ones running Dark Miasma, Time Manipulation, and any primaries with a single target hold available (or more).  Corruptors can also get Char.  Any of these can get Web Envelope Cocoon.  

However, if we're just going to point out that each of these can potentially get something like Char this becomes a highlight of 1 power on a 16 second to 32 second cooldown subverting two entire archetypes.  Doesn't that come across as a bit silly? 

Edited July 26, 2021 by oldskool

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, oldskool said:

 

This is just stating the obvious.  However, in context, it also makes the previous argument worse.  You see, I was giving the benefit of the doubt that by the existence of stacking holds from Cold Blast plus Char were looking at a problem of a Blaster building up multiple mag 3 options.  Same goes for Defenders like ones running Dark Miasma, Time Manipulation, and any primaries with a single target hold available (or more).  Corruptors can also get Char.  Any of these can get Web Envelope.  

However, if we're just going to point out that each of these can potentially get something like Char this becomes a highlight of 1 power on a 16 second to 32 second cooldown subverting two entire archetypes.  Doesn't that come across as a bit silly? 

I’m not commenting on the argument about invalidating archetypes. Just saying basically everyone (except... what, Peacebringers?) has the ability to pick up a hold with originally anemic damage that could wind up being their best DPA move.

[oedipus_tex]

I like the idea of a purple Fear set.

 

 

 

RE: Sleep sets

What I'd like is a proc called Chance to Re-Sleep or something, with a structure like this:

• 60% Chance for Mag 3 Sleep after a 2 second delay (only targets who are not sleeping)
• 60% Chance for Mag 3 Sleep after a 4 second delay (only targets who are not sleeping)
• 60% Chance for Mag 3 Sleep after a 6 second delay (only targets who are not sleeping)

 

Basically, add a pulsing effect to Sleeps so that enemies fall asleep again several times after the initial effect. Actual numbers and number of Re-Sleep ticks up to the balance team folks.

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, oldskool said:

 

This is just stating the obvious.  However, in context, it also makes the previous argument worse.  You see, I was giving the benefit of the doubt that by the existence of stacking holds from Cold Blast plus Char were looking at a problem of a Blaster building up multiple mag 3 options.  Same goes for Defenders like ones running Dark Miasma, Time Manipulation, and any primaries with a single target hold available (or more).  Corruptors can also get Char.  Any of these can get Web Envelope Cocoon.  

However, if we're just going to point out that each of these can potentially get something like Char this becomes a highlight of 1 power on a 16 second to 32 second cooldown subverting two entire archetypes.  Doesn't that come across as a bit silly? 

 

That was stating the obvious broken meta of blaster/defender's w/proc'd holds that currently undermines actual control characters in PvP.  In PvE who cares you all can have access to holds, control character holds operate much better in that area.  

 

I was making the obvious correlation that we should not be gatekeeping any changes for the overall game because it might upset PvP at the moment.  They're their own mess, they can sort themselves out after.  

[Marbing]

Are we still waiting on those videos? I am deeply curious what was found in those. 

[Dracomicon]

Whew, took me this long to read the all 23 pages. Here is my input to the conversation.

 

An example that can be viewed as procs are too good but also showcases how you get to make many good build choices is Radiation Melee's Irradiated Ground. This is fantastic power for using procs since the procs fire off of the Pseudo Pet that is created. This means that you can have two Pets overlapping at one location and get almost twice the percent of proc hits at that location. Is this too good? I don't know because since the Pet is at a fixed location and only 10' radius it often means that on a team the mobs are steamrolled before you drop a pet at all. However, solo it is a power that really shouldn't be skipped. It has the opportunity to use the following procs:

 

Obliteration (PBAoE): 3.5 PPM Smash Dmg
Eradication (PBAoE): 3.5 PPM Energy Dmg
Sciricco's Dervish (PBAoE): 3.5 PPM Lethal Dmg
Armageddon (PBAoE, Unique): 4.5 PPM Fire Dmg
Sup. Avalanche (PBAoE, Unique): 3.5 PPM Knockdown
Fury of Glad (PBAoE, Unique): 3.5 PPM -20% Res
Touch of Lady Grey (Def Debuff): 3.5 PPM Neg Dmg
Achille's Heel (Def Debuff): 3.5 PPM -20% Res
Shield Breaker (Acc. Def Debuff): 3.5 PPM Lethal Dmg
Analyze Weakness (Acc. Def Debuff): 2 PPM 30% chance for 20% To Hit for 10sec
Overwhelming Force (Univ. Dmg, Unique): 20% chance for Knockdown

 

The first slot is often for End/Acc enhancement or go for 2-slot bonuses, then you 5-slot with procs. The choices are actually very difficult since you can go all damage, or you can add one of the Knockdown procs since they reduce incoming damage significantly for a more defensive build, or you can add the -res procs it increases your damage so your attacks have more crunch. It's great to be able to change your slotting for your playstyle. You like to take on AV's then make sure to take both the -res procs, you like to jump into a large group then take one or both Knockdown procs to survive the damage, or just add all damage and watch the mobs melt. The only one that is a bit lackluster is the Analyze Weakness proc that doesn't feel like it helps much on many builds.

 

You also have to take into consideration that if you slot one of the uniques then you might miss out on some of those sweet bonuses like if you use Armageddon or Avalanche's procs.

I have slotted out this power multiple times with many different variations until I came to a slotting that encouraged my playstyle and still allowed my build to have the bonuses that I was chasing. 

 

Should the Procs be dialed back to make Irradiated Ground less of a fantastic power?
Should Irradiated Ground be dialed back to not take advantage of the procs so well?
Or is this a good example of how a power should be able to force difficult build choices that enrich the play experience and if more powers had these options then there would be many valid builds that can be created?

[arcane]

I believe a dev has already said in a focused feedback thread somewhere that Irradiated Ground is currently broken with procs.

[Marbing]

I would just like to point out we are still waiting on those videos.

[A.I.D.A.]

Just don't mess around too hard with non-damaging or maintenance procs. We don't need to see a gameplay-state where everyone's endurance bars are suddenly perma-locked empty because Performance Shifter stops working.

[cfarevival]

I would like to point out that @th0ughtGun needs @America's Angel to give a link for those videos!

 

Also, There is a toon that I have made recently named lNFERNO (he's a fire/martial/soul dominator).  He's got great potential for mob wiping solely because of the copious amount of procs I have given him.  He frequently pegs out on damage cap (300%) and mops the floor with a lotta stuff.  However, I sacrificed survivability to do it.  He's a glass cannon dominator, insane DoT, but with 0 heals (he relies explicitly on his own regeneration rate to heal).  I have taken barrier just to help him survive a bit.  I am considering respecing him and tossing several powers in favor of having the teleportation pool.  We'll see though.

 

For him, there was a tradeoff I willfully made:  take a FEW defensive powers (just for LoTG slotting) and the rest of his powers are designed to increase damamge output and KD/Hold/immobilize everything directly around his damage aura.  If he can get the baddies first, he wins.  If they get him first...oof.

 

The point is this:  it is because of his primary powers that he already has that I am able to do this.  They are the foundation for his abilities.  The procs just make everything go much faster.  But even if I took them all out, he would still completely incapacitate the enemies, still get to damage cap and still mop the floor with them, just slower.  I think that is an appropriate use of procs:  getting the DPS I need to not make everything gruellingly slow.

 

But for a non damage AT, I can see the frustration.

Edited February 20, 2022 by cfarevival

[Marbing]

53 minutes ago, cfarevival said:

I would like to point out that @th0ughtGun needs @America's Angel to give a link for those videos!

 

Also, There is a toon that I have made recently named lNFERNO (he's a fire/martial/soul dominator).  He's got great potential for mob wiping solely because of the copious amount of procs I have given him.  He frequently pegs out on damage cap (300%) and mops the floor with a lotta stuff.  However, I sacrificed survivability to do it.  He's a glass cannon dominator, insane DoT, but with 0 heals (he relies explicitly on his own regeneration rate to heal).  I have taken barrier just to help him survive a bit.  I am considering respecing him and tossing several powers in favor of having the teleportation pool.  We'll see though.

 

For him, there was a tradeoff I willfully made:  take a FEW defensive powers (just for LoTG slotting) and the rest of his powers are designed to increase damamge output and KD/Hold/immobilize everything directly around his damage aura.  If he can get the baddies first, he wins.  If they get him first...oof.

 

The point is this:  it is because of his primary powers that he already has that I am able to do this.  They are the foundation for his abilities.  The procs just make everything go much faster.  But even if I took them all out, he would still completely incapacitate the enemies, still get to damage cap and still mop the floor with them, just slower.  I think that is an appropriate use of procs:  getting the DPS I need to not make everything gruellingly slow.

 

But for a non damage AT, I can see the frustration.

A dominator is a good example of a toon that generally doesn't need a whole lot of defense though, once you get perma dom, not much can hit you back if you are locking down the entire spawn with mez. So you can afford the opportunity to load up on a bunch of damage procs and still remain relatively safe. Also, Bonfire is insane. 

I am actually currently working on a build for Mandragora that is essentially the same thing you have done. She is Plant/Thorn.

 

EDIT: Also, if it has taken this long to produce the videos I can't be entirely confident in its results one way or the other... Too much time has passed to allow for catching the perfect run or doctoring the videos to show whatever point is trying to be made.  I only said that because I just realized we never got the videos we were promised 😞 
 

Edited February 20, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[Bill Z Bubba]

Still think the best course of action is to just chop proc damage to 25% of the current values.

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Still think the best course of action is to just chop proc damage to 25% of the current values.

Idk I kinda liked the diminishing returns idea. Just like with damage enhancements. The more damage procs you stack on the power the less effective each one becomes.

Edited February 20, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[macskull]

My opinion on this hasn't changed since last year: proc nerfs are a solution in search of a problem. "But the emphasis on damage output devalues crowd control," I hear you say. No, the game's combat mechanics as a whole devalue crowd control. Even before PPM procs and free range organic incarnate powers trash mobs died quickly enough that CC was largely irrelevant save annoying the Tanker who was trying to herd mobs, and the mobs where CC really did matter either took multiple stacked mezzes to nullify so a CC character could not reliably mez them or were functionally immune to mez. Procs, in their current implementation, help narrow the gap between "damage" ATs and "support" ATs so that even if a "support" AT is in a situation where their support abilities (be they CC, buff, or debuff) aren't reliable or useful, they can still contribute to the team on the damage front.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

My opinion on this hasn't changed since last year: proc nerfs are a solution in search of a problem. "But the emphasis on damage output devalues crowd control," I hear you say. No, the game's combat mechanics as a whole devalue crowd control. Even before PPM procs and free range organic incarnate powers trash mobs died quickly enough that CC was largely irrelevant save annoying the Tanker who was trying to herd mobs, and the mobs where CC really did matter either took multiple stacked mezzes to nullify so a CC character could not reliably mez them or were functionally immune to mez. Procs, in their current implementation, help narrow the gap between "damage" ATs and "support" ATs so that even if a "support" AT is in a situation where their support abilities (be they CC, buff, or debuff) aren't reliable or useful, they can still contribute to the team on the damage front.

 

I forgot about this thread.

 

As for the quoted part, I'd further prune your comment to highlight my point:

 

"...nerfs are a solution in search of a problem."

 

If nerfs have no room in practicality, then neither do buffs? Or maybe some nerfs and some buffs? You can't just blanket-statement something without taking into context that PPM itself was a buff to procs.  If balance is desired, at some point, you have to accept negatives and positives. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Naraka said:

If balance is desired, at some point, you have to accept negatives and positives. 

 

But there's the rub: many care not at all for balance.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

But there's the rub: many care not at all for balance.

 

Almost no one cares about it.

 

Or difficulty. 

 

You and I are nearly outliers. 

[Marbing]

24 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Almost no one cares about it.

 

Or difficulty. 

 

You and I are nearly outliers. 

*raises hand*

Me too! I care about difficulty and balance.

[Pzn]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Still think the best course of action is to just chop proc damage to 25% of the current values.

This but all sources of damage so the suffering is balanced.  Then we can do things we used to but much slower which will be definitely be popular.

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Pzn said:

This but all sources of damage so the suffering is balanced.  Then we can do things we used to but much slower which will be definitely be popular.

 

You're not wrong.

[Glacier Peak]

@macskull Free range organic incarnate powers had me rolling 🤣