redside Why is it so hard for me to play Red Side?

[roleki]

"Well, it's DARKER!" - Player X on why they dislike RedSide

 

"Well, it's DARKER!" - Player Y on why they prefer RedSide

 

[Jitsurei]

I enjoy the fundamentals of CoH enough that I like to see everything the game has to offer. If I didn’t play redside I’d miss out on many of the more challenging and interesting team activities. Renault is worth doing at least once even if just to play around in the water spout room!
 

One of the issues is probably altitis, because yeah it can suck to redo the early content over and over. But as others mentioned there are some excellent arcs in there, and some of the contacts have fun personalities or concepts that are actually pretty memorable. 

 

I totally get not enjoying the zone aesthetics, but with how easy it is to switch sides, you can dip in or out and have a taste of the best bits. Some take issue with that because of RP, but doing some shady things can add depth to a character.

[Seed22]

On 7/6/2021 at 8:40 AM, retrobytz said:and find the fun in being a villain.

On 7/6/2021 at 8:40 AM, retrobytz said:

 

Sorry my phone is crap. Well, I believe that A.) you SHOULD be able to separate a game from RL. It’s why I’m able to play Redside. To be more specific, Rogues. I mean, I like to think that, in a real setting, most of my characters would be Rogues, maybe 3 true heroes and 1 true evil for evil’s sake villain. Vigilantes are crap but eh they’d still be a thing too for some of my characters. I also like to think that true altruistic heroics would not be a thing for like I said, most of my characters.

[ZemX]

22 hours ago, Apparition said:

I also don't get the "drab and unappealing" bit for red side zones.  Have you looked at Skyway City, Boomtown, Crey's Folly, Brickstown, The Hollows, etc. lately?

 

I'm convinced a large part of the "drab and unappealing" complaint is literally the weather.  It's ALWAYS overcast.  Sunlight, even virtual sunlight, has a large affect on a person's mood.  

 

I think it was a mistake.  There was certainly an attempt here to underscore the "City of Villains" as being where the bad folks lived by having the weather be as oppressive as Recluse's rule.  But in reality there would be sunlit days in Cap Au Diable and St. Martial just as there are in Steel Canyon or Skyway City.  Grandville, sure, should probably always look like an industrialist hellscape where the poor and diseased live in a literal gutter, but not every zone redside needed to look like that.  

 

As with a lot of things, they eventually got it right in Praetoria, which didn't need to look like Grandville to be just as unjust and oppressive.  You get these beautifully clean city zones but you still have alleys filled with gang members, protesters demonstrating against the government, and billboards of propaganda exhorting you to report your neighbor if they seem suspicious complete with monstrous caricatures of Resistance members.

[Seed22]

22 hours ago, Drakwatch said:

For me, Mercy Island, even with the redesign, is incredibly slow and painful to play through. I don't feel Villainous at all, I feel like a lackey punching snakes and groveling to my contacts. DFB helps, but it takes a while to find folks on Redside most days. Once I get to Port Oaks, it opens up newspaper missions and much more interesting content and from there I'm good. Also, I feel like making a villain concept character, at least from a RP perspective, is really hard for me. Hero character concepts come a lot easier to me when making an alt.

I want to say as an aside I LOVE your profile pic. Cant wait to see what happens with him in the comics brought to screen 😈😈

[ZemX]

22 hours ago, Drakwatch said:

For me, Mercy Island, even with the redesign, is incredibly slow and painful to play through. I don't feel Villainous at all, I feel like a lackey punching snakes and groveling to my contacts.

 

Mission-wise, it's no different from blueside in terms of how much fun the missions are to actually work through.   So I figure for most people it's the latter complaint they don't like.

 

But... I kind of feel like people are missing an essential part of getting into redside there.  You SHOULD start at the bottom.  For real, you WOULD start at the bottom of whatever pecking order exists and work your way up from there.   That means making a name for yourself running someone else's schemes.   

 

It was much more a problem later where it seemed, as you leveled up, you were only trading one boss for another more powerful boss rather than becoming one yourself.   But there was only so much that could ever be done within the framework of this game.  The whole system is based on "Something happened!  Go react to it!" model which fits heroes more than it fits villains.  The best they can do here is make contacts seem like people who are just helping you set up schemes of your own (which they did eventually in some later story arcs).  You still can't, as the player, have complete freedom to develop those schemes without a whole ton of new game mechanics added.

[Nemeroff]

The lower levels' look is depressing & discouraging.

The higher level story arcs are better than blue IMHO.

 

And (story depending) just when you're building a rapport with them/making progress there's a plot twist thru a total double cross and a fight to the finish!

 

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb" 

[TheMoncrief]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I love the fact that I'm seeing no villains explaining why they like to play red side and so many people are posting about why they don't.

 

I guess there maybe a couple that I have on ignore that are commenting on how glorious it is to be a villain, but those are the people that tend to get threads locked <-- which they seem to be doing intentionally which is pretty villainous in my book.

 

Thread title: "Why is it so hard for me to play Red Side?"

 

I think that explains why people are responding with reasons why they don't play Red Side. Possibly. I may be giving basic literacy too much credit though.

[Hew]

2 hours ago, Zhym said:

Early redside content is...not good

The new lowbie content (shining stars equivalent) is actually pretty cool, and your decisions have repercussions, like how I off'd a guy and he was REALLY OFF'd. He was a fire AT of some sort who double crossed me? I kind of regretted that, but not really. You get to use all the people you did right by in the last mission of a multi-contact multi-arc arc.

[Marine X]

I got an early Beta invite to help test City of Villains, I had a Grand Idea in my head of how it was going to work. As a villain, you would be trying to Steal something, Blow something up, Plot World Domination or Kidnap someone for a Ransom, and there would be actual Hero Players trying to stop You. I know this game hadn't really developed PVP at that point ( all we had was the Arena ) but that's how I saw it working. No separate Zones to keep us away from each other, Everyone in one big City, being a Hero or Villain, and clashing when they crossed paths with maybe a few Villain only Strongholds

Well none of that happened, and I guess I understand why, but it was a bit of a disappointment only because I was expecting something else, it just didn't fit with how Comic Books were written. I had a few Villains but mostly Heroes,  PVP was not what I thought it would be like, so I kinda bailed on that too. I have a few Villains on Homecoming but still struggle to remain interested in playing them and tend to sneak off and roll another hero. I agree that overall the writing is better and am trying to give Redside a chance to grow on me, we'll see.

[Xenosone]

I thumbed up a post that detailed whys but really it comes down to Redside has more competent people. Ae babies do not goto redside. People that cant figure out basic things like zoning and null the gull cant goto redaide. They can handle interesting strike forces like Tarikoss, Silver Mantis and Renault.  While the lead up to the last missions in those three are generic those last missions offer something a bit unique in terms of map and how to approach the big bad. That levaiathan room is something else. 

 

Anyways. The strong survive. The weak hide in ae. Its pretty simple.

[Hew]

11 minutes ago, Xenosone said:

I thumbed up a post that detailed whys but really it comes down to Redside has more competent people. Ae babies do not goto redside. People that cant figure out basic things like zoning and null the gull cant goto redaide. They can handle interesting strike forces like Tarikoss, Silver Mantis and Renault.  While the lead up to the last missions in those three are generic those last missions offer something a bit unique in terms of map and how to approach the big bad. That levaiathan room is something else. 

 

Anyways. The strong survive. The weak hide in ae. Its pretty simple.

The crazy lady thats like hequat or something in the fancy room!

[Yomo Kimyata]

I love much about redside, hate a bit about it, but the unforgiveable part is that there is too much vertical, and the game is unplayable without travel powers.

[stonehd]

3 hours ago, Hew said:

The new lowbie content (shining stars equivalent) is actually pretty cool, and your decisions have repercussions, like how I off'd a guy and he was REALLY OFF'd. He was a fire AT of some sort who double crossed me? I kind of regretted that, but not really. You get to use all the people you did right by in the last mission of a multi-contact multi-arc arc.

Yes to this.  The updated starting zone layout & new missions in Mercy, in addition to the P2W vendor, has made it a much more fun place for me.  I'm also one of the people who think the zone designs there are just so much better than the original CoH zones.  The first time I wondered across the overgrown, crumbling Circle of Thorns temple in Nerva (at least I think that's what/where it was), it was absolutely awesome.   Very few places in Paragon City give me that feeling of exploring somewhere new & interesting.  Most of the city feels like the copy/paste locations they are (pre-update Atlas, Steel, Talos & Peregrine all may as well be the same zone).  While there's some of that on Redside, it's less noticeable due to the fewer # of zones.

 

The overcast, dark and gloomy weather in the Isles, though?  That crap is as annoying as heck.  It's the first thing I'd change to make redside more inviting.

 

D

Edited July 7, 2021 by stonehd

[Tiger Shadow]

37 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I love much about redside, hate a bit about it, but the unforgiveable part is that there is too much vertical, and the game is unplayable without travel powers.

 

I  love doing tip missions, but I hate doing tip missions in Grandville so most of my level 40+ characters are vigilantes.

[dangeraaron10]

You can't force yourself to like Redside.  Whether it's the level design or not wanting to be a bad guy.  

 

And that's fine.  

 

It doesn't reflect badly on the content nor does it reflect badly on you.  If you dislike doing Redside content but might want to team with Redsiders, play Vigilante.  If you don't want to or don't like the morality missions that make you Vigilante, Null the Gull can fix you right up.

[UltraAlt]

15 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

I love how you admitted this is because you put people who disagree with your anti-redside opinions on ignore.  It's not the sort of thing I'd be proud of, personally.

 

You assume.

They weren't put on ignore because they disagree with my "anti-redside opinions".

 

They were already on ignore for other reasons.

I'm just having to assume that if there were players that were given positive input about why to play villains (other than DoctorDikto or myself) that they must have been players that have I had on ignore as no one else other than DoctorDitko or myself seemed to post any reasons to play villains.

 

I'm proud of being able to use the features of games and forums provided to me that allow me to improve the enjoyment of my gaming experience.

Your insult gains you a place on my ignore list.

Thanks for volunteering.

 

[UltraAlt]

21 hours ago, TheMoncrief said:

Thread title: "Why is it so hard for me to play Red Side?"

 

I think that explains why people are responding with reasons why they don't play Red Side. Possibly. I may be giving basic literacy too much credit though.

 

And, in your great BASIC LITERACY, you would have read my whole post, you would have seen I quoted the OP as saying ::

"Tell me what Red Side offers you to keep playing, and perhaps it will help me play Red Side longer and find the fun in being a villain."

 

If you had taken the time to read the OP's post you would have also seen them ask,

"So, I'm asking you, the community,...

What makes you play Red Side?"

 

But no, it's easier to attack someone else for exactly what you are doing.

You are the one who's "basic literacy" is lacking.

 

I also think you have bad manners as well.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

but the unforgiveable part is that there is too much vertical

 

The DEVs intentionally added all that additional vertical in CoV because they thought it was cool.

Makes you wonder which DEV thought adding the buzzing fluorescent light sounds in the CoH:GR was a cool idea.

 

The intentional additional vertical does make it harder to get around CoV.

Flight alway seems to be the superior travel power in superhero games. Always easier to use and general around in general.

 

 

[Snarky]

22 hours ago, Zhym said:

That's a large part of the problem.  Early redside content is...not good.  Snakes, snakes, and more snakes.  Plus Dr. Graves, which is the redside version of Twinshot's slow-roll tutorial arcs, but even worse.

 

It's at the mid to upper levels that redside really starts to shine.  Once you get there, the story quality is much better than most hero arcs.  And, as a nice bonus, the arcs tend to be short—something I really appreciate when my character is in the 40s and the hero options are really long Issue 0 arcs (with all the mission design flaws that come with them).

 

BTW, if you're interested in reading about some of the arcs some redsiders think are worth doing, check out this thread:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/21898-the-mean-missions-guide-a-villainous-levelling-journey-through-story-arcs/

 

I have solo'd every contact redside, (which means doing every arc and side mission until the contact offers you nothing) many times.

 

The 1-4 content on Redside is crucial.  Matthew Burke and Kalinda lay out the dichotomy of Redside play.  Burke explains to work with Arachnos....while screwing them over and doing what you want. Kalinda explains you must conform.  While being aware of the rival factions in Arachnos and everyone could turn on you in an instant. Get power, succeed.  The other contacts start opening up the story lines of mad science, magic, and the villain groups you face.

 

Redside, bestside.

[ZemX]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Your insult gains you a place on my ignore list.

Thanks for volunteering.

 

Judging by the quality and reputation of the people on your ignore list... thanks?

[Snarky]

Can I get on an ignore list?  I feel left out.

[Zhym]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I have solo'd every contact redside, (which means doing every arc and side mission until the contact offers you nothing) many times.

 

The 1-4 content on Redside is crucial.  Matthew Burke and Kalinda lay out the dichotomy of Redside play.  Burke explains to work with Arachnos....while screwing them over and doing what you want. Kalinda explains you must conform.  While being aware of the rival factions in Arachnos and everyone could turn on you in an instant. Get power, succeed.  The other contacts start opening up the story lines of mad science, magic, and the villain groups you face.

I soloed every arc on redside once.  The next slow-path character (and first real badger) I rolled up did most of the arcs again, but there are a few that I just find too distasteful.  Westin Phipps, for example, is just a little too evil to enjoy helping, and Jezebel Jones's second arc is a bit too close to sex trafficking; Lt. Harris is even worse, IMO, but I still did it because it has the cool side effect of clearing all those Longbow out of Fort Darwin.  And then there are a few that I think are just silly or aren't worth the effort of going through brokers to get to.  But I'd say I've done 95% of the redside contacts at least twice.  In a few cases, once was enough.  Others, I could run over and over again (Vernon Von Grun, I'm looking at you—and listening to you perfecting your evil laugh).

 

You have a point about the 1-4 content setting the stage.  I just don't think they're good as missions.  There's so little variety—and it's even worse if you slow things down and do both Burke and Kalinda, since they have basically the same arcs of "Go kill snakes.  Now kill some more snakes.  Next, kill even more snakes."  The saving grace is that the missions and arcs are short.  I actually don't mind them that much.  But if I were trying out redside for the first time, they'd leave me completely underwhelmed.  I just broke out of the Zig, and the exciting, dangerous, and (one hopes) lucrative world of villainy is about...clearing snakes out of tunnels?  I could easily see someone deciding to go back to playing their hero at that point. 

 

Which is a shame, because it gets a lot better fairly quickly.  Many of the best-written and most fun arcs in the game are redside (I listed some of my favorites here).  But as much as the early content sets up the factions and your character's (temporarily) low position in this world, it doesn't do a great job of showing what fun redside can and will be.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Zhym

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Judging by the quality and reputation of the people on your ignore list... thanks?

I have basic intellect, can I end up on the list too? Also I hate all of Blueside’s story so theres that

Edited July 8, 2021 by Seed22

[KC4800]

To answer the OP, it's harder to play red side because it was designed that way. Villainy isn't easy nor should it be.

Kidnapping is harder than rescuing, bank robbing is harder than bank protecting.

More ambushes, more unexpected outcomes, life is just harder, but you have to feel that success will be sweeter when you finally achieve it. If you ever do, the odds are against  you.

 

Even if you go Rogue, and do an occasional ok thing, you're still in it for yourself, so there's that.